what happems when brushless takes over?
09-07-2006, 01:33 PM
#106
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
I don't understand all these people that think that being sponsored by a company makes someone that much harder to beat. It's not the sponsorship, it's the reason why these guys are sponsored that makes them tough to beat.
EA
09-07-2006, 01:41 PM
#107
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by eforer
Okay, I resisted, I tried not to, but I have to post. The sheer retardation of this thread is just overwhelming my judgement. What I can't believe is that people are crucifying Eddie and Eric as they WORK IN AND WITH ROAR to benefit RC racing as a whole. This thread should be entitled: "Certain RC Racers Need To Wear Hockey Helmets At All Times."
Brushless: Completely ignoring the fact that working with a stock motor isn't as bad as everyone says, There isn't a viable brushless solution to replace the stock class (or even 19t) yet. A stringent criteria needs to be developed which restricts the performance of a BL motor thourgh limiting its physical characteristics. This is essential to creating a realistic replacement for the stock class. Furthermore, said critera should yeild a motor which has a perdictable level of performance across a variety of sensored brushless ESCs. Beyond all this, a 5-7 pole brushed motor would make alot more sense vs brushless. I won't even get into that...
LiPos:
These are cells developed for an industrial application, just like sub-c cells were originally. Each individual cell is an awkward voltage for rc racing. There are other chemestries that are more potent already in use in other real world industries. LiPos are a flash in the pan, NiMh's will be replaced eventually, but by something that is a better fit.
Ultimately, as with all things in racing, the best 1% of cells/packs or whatever will be analyzed sold for more money and the market place will look much the same as it always has. The details may differ, but the best sticks will always demand a premium and there will always be a market for searching out the best performers and maximizing their potential. This is of course true with any future motor technology as well.
Brushless: Completely ignoring the fact that working with a stock motor isn't as bad as everyone says, There isn't a viable brushless solution to replace the stock class (or even 19t) yet. A stringent criteria needs to be developed which restricts the performance of a BL motor thourgh limiting its physical characteristics. This is essential to creating a realistic replacement for the stock class. Furthermore, said critera should yeild a motor which has a perdictable level of performance across a variety of sensored brushless ESCs. Beyond all this, a 5-7 pole brushed motor would make alot more sense vs brushless. I won't even get into that...
LiPos:
These are cells developed for an industrial application, just like sub-c cells were originally. Each individual cell is an awkward voltage for rc racing. There are other chemestries that are more potent already in use in other real world industries. LiPos are a flash in the pan, NiMh's will be replaced eventually, but by something that is a better fit.
Ultimately, as with all things in racing, the best 1% of cells/packs or whatever will be analyzed sold for more money and the market place will look much the same as it always has. The details may differ, but the best sticks will always demand a premium and there will always be a market for searching out the best performers and maximizing their potential. This is of course true with any future motor technology as well.
Bob Novak
09-07-2006, 02:12 PM
#108
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
You just contradicted your self in this post. Sponsored drivers dont take the fun out of this hobby.....YOU YOURSELF is the ONLY person that should be able to take the fun out of this "hobby" as you put it.
Telling people there is no "next level" is a crock as well. How do you think guys like Hara, Cyrul, Burch, etc got to where they are now? Just handed it to them on a platter...HELL NO!! They worked their tails off racing, learning and PRACTICING to become the best at what they do....just as you would at anything if you are trying to advance!!
Just because YOU consider this a Hobby doesnt mean that it should be by everoyone who either dreams of one day being a "Pro" racer or some sort of manufacture.
EA
Telling people there is no "next level" is a crock as well. How do you think guys like Hara, Cyrul, Burch, etc got to where they are now? Just handed it to them on a platter...HELL NO!! They worked their tails off racing, learning and PRACTICING to become the best at what they do....just as you would at anything if you are trying to advance!!
Just because YOU consider this a Hobby doesnt mean that it should be by everoyone who either dreams of one day being a "Pro" racer or some sort of manufacture.
EA
Im in a mood today so you'll have to forgive my outbursts... My wife just ignores me except for the fact that she decided she needs an MBA and is going to nightschool and I am stuck in the house with a psychopathic toddler.... I was going to go bash in the street but he's in his high chair coloring and I don't want to move him... Hahahah....
Mr Novak, would you sponsor someone who enjoys winning the C main??? Actually we're lucky some days to have a B main in TC...
09-07-2006, 02:52 PM
#109
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
So now that guys that have been racing for tons of years and only wish to aspire to run stock motors has to race against pro's running mods?
The main problem is that there is a problem with our society. People feel entitled to things they did not earn. If people feel they should be able to win instantly. They don't want to put in the work to earn that win. If they dont win, it's a problem with the system, not them.
The main problem is that there is a problem with our society. People feel entitled to things they did not earn. If people feel they should be able to win instantly. They don't want to put in the work to earn that win. If they dont win, it's a problem with the system, not them.
Maybe these idiots behind the keyboards should run for Roar Pres or regional director and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
09-07-2006, 03:06 PM
#110
i might be a bit ignorant one the bl controller thing, but if someone could answer this it would be appreciated...
so if the brushless controller charges the stator, then isn't the rpm and amps and volts going to the motor controllable to the Nth level by the BL controller? couple this with fixed timing, number of winds, composition of wire/rotor and specific dimensions, and i would 'assume' (dangerous word) that while there would still be SOME variation on performance, that you could get a 'stock' type bl motor to perform far more consistently from one to another than brushed. there are seemingly FAR fewer variables, ie. stack/laminations, spring tension/wrap, brush composition/shape/angle, armature drilling/weighting, etc. that would be removed from the equation. this also removes part of the 'black art' of tuning which many sportsman racers face.
i would also 'assume' with the above statement about bl controllers, this would effectively remove the 'better battery' issue and allow lipo/nimh/nicd and the rest of the abc's to all run together at a specific level.
why not?
ps. the cases on the bl controllers could be sealed without an externally programmable eprom lessen the chance of cheating.
so if the brushless controller charges the stator, then isn't the rpm and amps and volts going to the motor controllable to the Nth level by the BL controller? couple this with fixed timing, number of winds, composition of wire/rotor and specific dimensions, and i would 'assume' (dangerous word) that while there would still be SOME variation on performance, that you could get a 'stock' type bl motor to perform far more consistently from one to another than brushed. there are seemingly FAR fewer variables, ie. stack/laminations, spring tension/wrap, brush composition/shape/angle, armature drilling/weighting, etc. that would be removed from the equation. this also removes part of the 'black art' of tuning which many sportsman racers face.
i would also 'assume' with the above statement about bl controllers, this would effectively remove the 'better battery' issue and allow lipo/nimh/nicd and the rest of the abc's to all run together at a specific level.
why not?
ps. the cases on the bl controllers could be sealed without an externally programmable eprom lessen the chance of cheating.
09-07-2006, 03:48 PM
#111
gee-dub,
I have often thought about how to limit the controller programing issues, along with the sealed controller method. If this were put into practice, any sanctioning body would also have to approve controllers. This would allow manufacturers to monopalize the market, and only mfgs with the engineering budget would be allowed (financially) to market their goods to the consumer. This also would limit consumers to only certian brands, if they already purchased then they are SOL if the sanctioning body decides that it isn't allowed.
This also would eliminate the free-enterprising that people are allowed to do on their own with developing new controllers and trying to re-invent the mousetrap, which often times leads to much better mousetraps. Last thing we should be doing is stagnating the market.
Motor tuners today would not lose their market. One thing that they would have to do is definately adapt. Those that understand programming would stand to gain a massive customer base by learning to reprogram controllers. Right now the controllers on the market for brushless offer 6 or so programs (I only speak of the sensored varieties that are in the mainstream racing). Imagine what you can do at the software level to make these controllers perform at thier maximum for the different tracks, weather, rotors, and any other types of variables that we deal with from week to week racing on the different surfaces that we do.
I have often thought about how to limit the controller programing issues, along with the sealed controller method. If this were put into practice, any sanctioning body would also have to approve controllers. This would allow manufacturers to monopalize the market, and only mfgs with the engineering budget would be allowed (financially) to market their goods to the consumer. This also would limit consumers to only certian brands, if they already purchased then they are SOL if the sanctioning body decides that it isn't allowed.
This also would eliminate the free-enterprising that people are allowed to do on their own with developing new controllers and trying to re-invent the mousetrap, which often times leads to much better mousetraps. Last thing we should be doing is stagnating the market.
Motor tuners today would not lose their market. One thing that they would have to do is definately adapt. Those that understand programming would stand to gain a massive customer base by learning to reprogram controllers. Right now the controllers on the market for brushless offer 6 or so programs (I only speak of the sensored varieties that are in the mainstream racing). Imagine what you can do at the software level to make these controllers perform at thier maximum for the different tracks, weather, rotors, and any other types of variables that we deal with from week to week racing on the different surfaces that we do.
09-07-2006, 04:00 PM
#112
Without going into all of the stuff on this thread, i just want to point out that there are people with different levels of interest in rc posting...
Me personally, I enjoyed the process of working hard and making a ROAR A main, and it felt really good when I was finally able to since I know that I put the time and effort in. You can change the rules all you want, if you dont care to put the time and effort in you will never be as competitive as the people who do.
And as far as brushless being the be all and end all to save racing... I spend very little time at club racing working on my car, i have plenty of time to BS with the other guys at the track. I rebuild my motor once, maybe twice if i really am close to improving a position and i am driving well, each race day. I ran the same stock motor all summer, racing at least once a week, on carpet, asphalt and dirt, and its still going, i dont think $30-$40 was an awful investment or was unreasonable, a set of rubber tires costs that much. And as far as big races, the $100 or less I pay for handout motors across 3 classes is the LEAST of my expenses for the week, and I have seen plenty of people in the D main who have more rip than I have had when I have been in the A main.
As far as sponsorship in stock... I dont have the time to race mod, nor do I see myself in the forseable future, I club raced for a few years and spent a year going to big races before I got a single sponsor, if you have the results and arent a total prick then they too will seek you out...
Sucess in RC has alot more to do with merit than almost any full size car racing series...
Me personally, I enjoyed the process of working hard and making a ROAR A main, and it felt really good when I was finally able to since I know that I put the time and effort in. You can change the rules all you want, if you dont care to put the time and effort in you will never be as competitive as the people who do.
And as far as brushless being the be all and end all to save racing... I spend very little time at club racing working on my car, i have plenty of time to BS with the other guys at the track. I rebuild my motor once, maybe twice if i really am close to improving a position and i am driving well, each race day. I ran the same stock motor all summer, racing at least once a week, on carpet, asphalt and dirt, and its still going, i dont think $30-$40 was an awful investment or was unreasonable, a set of rubber tires costs that much. And as far as big races, the $100 or less I pay for handout motors across 3 classes is the LEAST of my expenses for the week, and I have seen plenty of people in the D main who have more rip than I have had when I have been in the A main.
As far as sponsorship in stock... I dont have the time to race mod, nor do I see myself in the forseable future, I club raced for a few years and spent a year going to big races before I got a single sponsor, if you have the results and arent a total prick then they too will seek you out...
Sucess in RC has alot more to do with merit than almost any full size car racing series...
09-07-2006, 05:05 PM
#113
Originally Posted by Bob Novak
I am not quite sure I understand why you say there is not a viable brushless solution to replace the stock or 19 turn classes. If you look at the Roar brushless rules you will see that they are as stringent as the brushed rules and for the most part very similar. All that would have to be done for a stock or 19 turn equivalent brushless set of rules would be to add the number of turns that would be allowed on the stator for each class. Myself and several of the Roar committee members are working on the wind issue and it looks like the 13.5 turn wind brushless motor would be very close to a stock brushed motor and the 10.5 turn would be very close to the 19 turn brushed motor. What we are trying to accomplish here is to come up with brushless equivalents that will be as close to the brushed motors as possible. This would give the racer a choice of which motor he would like to race without giving an advantage to either type of motor, other than the maintenance factor.
Bob Novak
Bob Novak
09-07-2006, 05:22 PM
#114
Making Stock Brushless Possible
Same comes from Me Bob !!!
sorry ....
sorry ....
09-07-2006, 05:36 PM
#116
Some people just don't get that if a motor does 5800rpm per volt nothing you do to the controller is going to change that....
09-07-2006, 05:46 PM
#117
Originally Posted by Bob Novak
I am not quite sure I understand why you say there is not a viable brushless solution to replace the stock or 19 turn classes. If you look at the Roar brushless rules you will see that they are as stringent as the brushed rules and for the most part very similar. All that would have to be done for a stock or 19 turn equivalent brushless set of rules would be to add the number of turns that would be allowed on the stator for each class. Myself and several of the Roar committee members are working on the wind issue and it looks like the 13.5 turn wind brushless motor would be very close to a stock brushed motor and the 10.5 turn would be very close to the 19 turn brushed motor. What we are trying to accomplish here is to come up with brushless equivalents that will be as close to the brushed motors as possible. This would give the racer a choice of which motor he would like to race without giving an advantage to either type of motor, other than the maintenance factor.
Bob Novak
Bob Novak
1) Is the motor compatible with other sensored, BL ESCs. If so, will we see comprable performance, or is the software going to dictate alot? My concern here, is that although novak makes a terrific product, a monopoly on a new class of racing is not good for anyone.
2) If another company were to build a motor fitting into the criteria you have set out for your own stock system, would the performance be comprable. For a formula in racing (of any kind) you want the rules to produce products of near equal performance, yet allow a little room for innovation and advancement.
Although I'm pretty happy racing with stock motors and am pretty much in favor of the status quo, I understand that there is value in creating a brushless equivelent to the stock class. I feel however, that the above quesitons need to be addressed for the class to be successful and beneficial to the racing community and the industry as a whole.
I don't mean to criticize Novak's extensive contributions to RC racing. I just wish to express my perspective on what I believe to be important aspects of this emerging technology an its implementation in spec classes such as stock.
09-07-2006, 08:17 PM
#118
Yea, kudos from me on the 13.5 as well. You guys really got it right with that motor. Our club is allowing it to be run in stock, though currently most people have ditched stock for the 4300 promised land.
I don't know how much thought went into the 4300 a few years ago in terms of what "class" it would fit in to, but let me tell you, the 4300 class we're racing locally is a lot of damn fun. It's a perfect compromise in speed between stock and 19T, and the torque of the motor makes it exciting to drive, especially when it can pull so hard out of the turns. Everybody in our 4300 sedan class has walked away from the driver's stand with huge smiles on their faces these past few weeks.
People in the clubs are creating their own classes, and there's a movement in the oval world to define brushless classes which we may adopt in our on-road sedan version as well. Attempting to define classes within the ROAR rules is good and well, but man, people aren't waiting. The 4300 movement in the midwest is for real.
I don't know how much thought went into the 4300 a few years ago in terms of what "class" it would fit in to, but let me tell you, the 4300 class we're racing locally is a lot of damn fun. It's a perfect compromise in speed between stock and 19T, and the torque of the motor makes it exciting to drive, especially when it can pull so hard out of the turns. Everybody in our 4300 sedan class has walked away from the driver's stand with huge smiles on their faces these past few weeks.
People in the clubs are creating their own classes, and there's a movement in the oval world to define brushless classes which we may adopt in our on-road sedan version as well. Attempting to define classes within the ROAR rules is good and well, but man, people aren't waiting. The 4300 movement in the midwest is for real.
09-07-2006, 09:46 PM
#119
A simple answer to all this BANTER...!
***RUN A "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" CLASS***
Run single car... 3 or 5 lap qualifiers back-to- back-to-back for best times...
That'd be alot of fun to run... plus it'd build excitement for the race day!
If you have 25 cars...
The Top 7 qualifiers = the "Fastest class"
The next 8 qualifiers = the "Fast class"
The Bottom 10 qualifiers = the "Not as fast class"
Hmmmm that should end all the squabble...?
***RUN A "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" CLASS***
Run single car... 3 or 5 lap qualifiers back-to- back-to-back for best times...
That'd be alot of fun to run... plus it'd build excitement for the race day!
If you have 25 cars...
The Top 7 qualifiers = the "Fastest class"
The next 8 qualifiers = the "Fast class"
The Bottom 10 qualifiers = the "Not as fast class"
Hmmmm that should end all the squabble...?
09-08-2006, 05:38 AM
#120
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Some people just don't get that if a motor does 5800rpm per volt nothing you do to the controller is going to change that....
Controller tech for these motors goes as far as traction control and real time anti-lock breaking. There are tons of things that could and are being controlled through the esc units. I have nothing against that, either. It's just a different style racing.