Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
09-09-2006, 01:08 AM
#76
If you have problems coming out of the turn, on throtlle, look at the center shock. Either use slightly softer shock oil, or go for a tad softer spring.
The trick in a rwd car is off course not to slam the throttle, but to "roll" onto the throttle out of the corner (works for a 4wd as well), but if that isn't enough you can always use the above setup changes.
Also try to keep a little throttle on in the corners. This might sound strange, but really helps cornering speed and especially corner exit.
Good to hear the car is starting to work! Now you're entering the fun zone (where you start eating touring cars LOL)!!!!
The trick in a rwd car is off course not to slam the throttle, but to "roll" onto the throttle out of the corner (works for a 4wd as well), but if that isn't enough you can always use the above setup changes.
Also try to keep a little throttle on in the corners. This might sound strange, but really helps cornering speed and especially corner exit.
Good to hear the car is starting to work! Now you're entering the fun zone (where you start eating touring cars LOL)!!!!
09-09-2006, 04:12 AM
#77
Tech Regular
with 4.5 motor, you should be able to overtake 1/10 nitro cars on long straight line without having to capitalize your car's weight advantage in the technical sections.
With 1/8 cars, you have to wait until you're in the technical sections before you can overtake them before entering corner or inside a chicane.
Emjoyyy!!!
With 1/8 cars, you have to wait until you're in the technical sections before you can overtake them before entering corner or inside a chicane.
Emjoyyy!!!
09-09-2006, 12:42 PM
#78
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
sepirts-I have no problems to report with the LRP Spere competition and the Novak 4.5, but then I am not giving it a very hard workout yet with 2 wheel drive on a dusty track. The touring car eats brushless stuff in Houston in August. In February they work fine. I like the fact that the Sphere has a program to reduce punch. I have it at level one which is smooth, low traction.
No cogging or sluggish response to report. It is working very smooth and needs to with this car on this track.
Smokin Motor. I'll look into that thrust bearing. Maybe you could post a link.
Red-Line MO3-thanks for the video 40 mph to go.
Second Test Session
I had a much more satisfying test session this time around. I’ll start with the good news. The first run was with the wing as in the photo above. It worked great. The car tracked straight as a bullet on the long 220 ft straight. It did the sweeper well, good steering, no oversteer. I could hit an estimated 50 mph just before the sweeper geared 90/13, 6.92 (27.6 mm/rev). The track was still dirty, but the Coppertone 50 helped. I was reaching about 40 mph at the end of the second largest straight. The touring car goes a radar measured 45 mph on the straight, so that is my gauge. On the last pack I ran 22 minutes!!!, without a stop, and ended short because of an incident. This runtime will undoubtedly get less as I gain skill and my lap times improve with the car, and especially if they treat the track.
Wing positions
I tried two other wing positions. No black wing. This moved the center of pressure back about 3/4 inch. The car became a little unstable on the straight. I hit a bump on the far outside of the straight on one lap and the car did a perfect endo, landed back on its tires and I continued practice. The car really liked the triple wing setup better.
I moved the black wing back 1/2 inch. The car was just a little unstable, but I could run at high speed still. I hit the same bump by accident and the car did an endo but landed on the roof. I can avoid this bump with more care; it is right near the outside stripe. The car is going fast in the air but it flutters and loses speed quickly. This ended my 22 minute run. I’ll return the wing to the photo position for the next test. No real danger for a well positioned corner marshall or spectator outside the fence. Good course design.
Throttle
The car now has two levels of grip. Going slow you have to baby the throttle a little on the dusty track. After it has gone 15-20 ft. The wing really starts to help and you can get to full throttle a lot faster (without spinning out). I will push this distance smaller with practice. Acceleration is nothing short of spectacular once you are on the wing.
The car no longer spins in the middle of the long straight or the short straights. The wing helped a lot on the long straight, but I think the new side shocks helped the most on the short straights, (along with the Coppertone)
Corner Exit Oversteer
I think a highly skilled driver could drive the car very fast as is. I need a little more help on corner exit. It feels like the car is driving forward on only the outside rear tire. The car spins very easy at the 2-3 foot mark out of the corner. I understand that this is a property of rear wheel drive only cars, but I think some suspension tricks might cure this. Diff was loose. Mid corner the car is good. Corner entry is good. I am going to try to move the rear side springs up high. I'll do some tests on spring tension.
I used the same tires pink rear magenta front. New tires are not in yet.
Mechanical problems
The little 8 x 32 stud pulled out of the rear axle. It looks like it was glued in and the glue failed or maybe it just stripped the fiberglass which really does not hold threads well. I drilled it 1/4 inch deeper rethreaded it, put in a longer screw with superglue then accelerator, cut off the head with the dremmel and saved the session.
Motor
The 4.5 motor seems to be a good match to the car and track. Plenty of top speed. not too much punch when geared low. I will increase the gear as grip and skill come up.
No cogging or sluggish response to report. It is working very smooth and needs to with this car on this track.
Smokin Motor. I'll look into that thrust bearing. Maybe you could post a link.
Red-Line MO3-thanks for the video 40 mph to go.
Second Test Session
I had a much more satisfying test session this time around. I’ll start with the good news. The first run was with the wing as in the photo above. It worked great. The car tracked straight as a bullet on the long 220 ft straight. It did the sweeper well, good steering, no oversteer. I could hit an estimated 50 mph just before the sweeper geared 90/13, 6.92 (27.6 mm/rev). The track was still dirty, but the Coppertone 50 helped. I was reaching about 40 mph at the end of the second largest straight. The touring car goes a radar measured 45 mph on the straight, so that is my gauge. On the last pack I ran 22 minutes!!!, without a stop, and ended short because of an incident. This runtime will undoubtedly get less as I gain skill and my lap times improve with the car, and especially if they treat the track.
Wing positions
I tried two other wing positions. No black wing. This moved the center of pressure back about 3/4 inch. The car became a little unstable on the straight. I hit a bump on the far outside of the straight on one lap and the car did a perfect endo, landed back on its tires and I continued practice. The car really liked the triple wing setup better.
I moved the black wing back 1/2 inch. The car was just a little unstable, but I could run at high speed still. I hit the same bump by accident and the car did an endo but landed on the roof. I can avoid this bump with more care; it is right near the outside stripe. The car is going fast in the air but it flutters and loses speed quickly. This ended my 22 minute run. I’ll return the wing to the photo position for the next test. No real danger for a well positioned corner marshall or spectator outside the fence. Good course design.
Throttle
The car now has two levels of grip. Going slow you have to baby the throttle a little on the dusty track. After it has gone 15-20 ft. The wing really starts to help and you can get to full throttle a lot faster (without spinning out). I will push this distance smaller with practice. Acceleration is nothing short of spectacular once you are on the wing.
The car no longer spins in the middle of the long straight or the short straights. The wing helped a lot on the long straight, but I think the new side shocks helped the most on the short straights, (along with the Coppertone)
Corner Exit Oversteer
I think a highly skilled driver could drive the car very fast as is. I need a little more help on corner exit. It feels like the car is driving forward on only the outside rear tire. The car spins very easy at the 2-3 foot mark out of the corner. I understand that this is a property of rear wheel drive only cars, but I think some suspension tricks might cure this. Diff was loose. Mid corner the car is good. Corner entry is good. I am going to try to move the rear side springs up high. I'll do some tests on spring tension.
I used the same tires pink rear magenta front. New tires are not in yet.
Mechanical problems
The little 8 x 32 stud pulled out of the rear axle. It looks like it was glued in and the glue failed or maybe it just stripped the fiberglass which really does not hold threads well. I drilled it 1/4 inch deeper rethreaded it, put in a longer screw with superglue then accelerator, cut off the head with the dremmel and saved the session.
Motor
The 4.5 motor seems to be a good match to the car and track. Plenty of top speed. not too much punch when geared low. I will increase the gear as grip and skill come up.
09-09-2006, 02:25 PM
#80
Thanks for the help and encouragement guys.
I'll see if I can find the SXT tire Tweak. I do have some old high wintergreen Paragon in the black can on hand and also Corally Jack the gripper. The 4.5 seems to have quite a bit less bottom end punch than the 6.5. I agree they are pretty strong on the bottom end compared to brushed.
I have tinkered with the radio a lot. I tried -30 exp. I also used the speed function on the M8 to slow the application of the throttle. Both of these settings reduced my ability to apply throttle in the corners smoothly with small trigger movement, so I returned to the radio straight up. I do apply power in the corner. I can corner faster this way. I also found the pan car needs considerably less steering throw than the touring car to go around the hairpins. I think I am down to 35 - 40 % of full throw. Reducing this helped the corner exit spins. More practice needed rolling on the throttle a little slower than with the touring car.
I will try to run three Apogee 3800 mA-h packs tomorrow. Imagine getting 60 minutes of track time from a 2 hour session. I have three packs and two LiPo chargers. We had a rainout this morning. I have no tire wear to report yet. They look almost new.
I am sure I will get to 60 to 65 mph on the straight in the next session or the one after, just by applying throttle sooner and not freaking when the sweeper comes up. The car actually handles this section very well with the wing position in the photo. The car is making interesting noises at this speed. The 1/8 scales do about 70 mph at the end of the straight.
I'll see if I can find the SXT tire Tweak. I do have some old high wintergreen Paragon in the black can on hand and also Corally Jack the gripper. The 4.5 seems to have quite a bit less bottom end punch than the 6.5. I agree they are pretty strong on the bottom end compared to brushed.
I have tinkered with the radio a lot. I tried -30 exp. I also used the speed function on the M8 to slow the application of the throttle. Both of these settings reduced my ability to apply throttle in the corners smoothly with small trigger movement, so I returned to the radio straight up. I do apply power in the corner. I can corner faster this way. I also found the pan car needs considerably less steering throw than the touring car to go around the hairpins. I think I am down to 35 - 40 % of full throw. Reducing this helped the corner exit spins. More practice needed rolling on the throttle a little slower than with the touring car.
I will try to run three Apogee 3800 mA-h packs tomorrow. Imagine getting 60 minutes of track time from a 2 hour session. I have three packs and two LiPo chargers. We had a rainout this morning. I have no tire wear to report yet. They look almost new.
I am sure I will get to 60 to 65 mph on the straight in the next session or the one after, just by applying throttle sooner and not freaking when the sweeper comes up. The car actually handles this section very well with the wing position in the photo. The car is making interesting noises at this speed. The 1/8 scales do about 70 mph at the end of the straight.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-09-2006 at 02:39 PM.
09-10-2006, 02:09 AM
#81
I use Jack the Gripper. Paragon and other Wintergreen traction compounds are not allowed for racing here.
I have tested with Paragon, Death Grip and suntan lotion. I still prefer Jack without any suntan lotion.
Here's the way I set up my cars on asphalt:
1) I always go for a full coat of traction compound front and rear. If you set up traction compound different front and rear, the effects can wear of during the run, making drastical changes to your car's balance (most of the time spinouts coming out of the corner).
I even practice without traction compound if possible (sometimes the track is just too slippery). This helps me to learn to go easy on the throttle and drive smooth lines. With traction compound applied, the car then simply becomes easier to drive.
2) I set my chassis up with "mediocre" setting. With that I mean I can still go both ways (softer-stiffer).
With that setup I look for the firmest tire combo that still feels fast.
3) I go for small setup tweaks from there. You can overstep several tire compounds with setup changes, but I always try to avoid that, because I have found that extreme setups are less consistant during a run.
4) As a last, I look for the more consistant tire compounds. The pink-magenta-purple tire family is more consistant than greens, yellows, greys and whites.
The baseline for my style of racing is still being near the podium places in the last minute, when traction on some cars runs out, and batteries start to dump.
It is also much easier to improve your driving on a car that is consistant through a run, than on one that changes all the time.
I have tested with Paragon, Death Grip and suntan lotion. I still prefer Jack without any suntan lotion.
Here's the way I set up my cars on asphalt:
1) I always go for a full coat of traction compound front and rear. If you set up traction compound different front and rear, the effects can wear of during the run, making drastical changes to your car's balance (most of the time spinouts coming out of the corner).
I even practice without traction compound if possible (sometimes the track is just too slippery). This helps me to learn to go easy on the throttle and drive smooth lines. With traction compound applied, the car then simply becomes easier to drive.
2) I set my chassis up with "mediocre" setting. With that I mean I can still go both ways (softer-stiffer).
With that setup I look for the firmest tire combo that still feels fast.
3) I go for small setup tweaks from there. You can overstep several tire compounds with setup changes, but I always try to avoid that, because I have found that extreme setups are less consistant during a run.
4) As a last, I look for the more consistant tire compounds. The pink-magenta-purple tire family is more consistant than greens, yellows, greys and whites.
The baseline for my style of racing is still being near the podium places in the last minute, when traction on some cars runs out, and batteries start to dump.
It is also much easier to improve your driving on a car that is consistant through a run, than on one that changes all the time.
09-10-2006, 11:01 AM
#82
John, have you tried dialing in a bit of drag brake? I don't have any experience with the newer brushless systems but I do with the old. I did notice that the brushless freewheels much easier than the brushed and adding a little drag brake helped the chassis transition.....
09-10-2006, 11:56 AM
#83
Pro ten Holland- Thanks for the post.I'll give that Jack the gripper a try after I get the right tire compounds on the car. Rained out again. I need my RC Fix.
vtl1180ny- I have a little drag brake dialed in. The setting on the Sphere Comp is supposed to equal the natural drag brake of a brushed mod motor. I thought about eliminating it because it gets me in trouble going into the sweeper if I accidently drop the throttle too much and go to neutral at the very high speed. I am able to use a slight amount of trigger brake going into the hairpins about 18 % or so on occasion.
vtl1180ny- I have a little drag brake dialed in. The setting on the Sphere Comp is supposed to equal the natural drag brake of a brushed mod motor. I thought about eliminating it because it gets me in trouble going into the sweeper if I accidently drop the throttle too much and go to neutral at the very high speed. I am able to use a slight amount of trigger brake going into the hairpins about 18 % or so on occasion.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-10-2006 at 07:52 PM.
09-11-2006, 07:24 AM
#85
SpeedMerchant SpeedSpec
I am sick of spnding $35 weekly on rubber tires running TC. All the tedious set up and reprair costs...that's why I have looked into the 1/10th pan car world and so far am very happy with what I have read here. I have ordered my first pan car, the SpeedMerchant Speedspec, which you can see from their site: www.teamspeedmerchant.com. I plan to use my Novak GTB w/ 4.5R system and Thunderpower LiPO that fits. Need a good basic set up for this car for asphalt, low-med traction. Med size track, mixed. Running Jaco pruple in front and Jaco Pink in rear.
09-11-2006, 07:29 AM
#86
Originally Posted by yyhayyim
I am sick of spnding $35 weekly on rubber tires running TC. All the tedious set up and reprair costs...that's why I have looked into the 1/10th pan car world and so far am very happy with what I have read here. I have ordered my first pan car, the SpeedMerchant Speedspec, which you can see from their site: www.teamspeedmerchant.com. I plan to use my Novak GTB w/ 4.5R system and Thunderpower LiPO that fits. Need a good basic set up for this car for asphalt, low-med traction. Med size track, mixed. Running Jaco pruple in front and Jaco Pink in rear.
In 1/12th I spend about the same amount of money keeping tires on it as on my sedan. I dont crash often and I run my tires bigger than I should just to get one more run out of them.
09-11-2006, 08:42 AM
#87
I agree that in 12th scale on carpet tire wear compares to touring car.
However, running 10th pan car outdoor, you have considerable less tire wear.
One thing to factor in is the traction compound you use. With Paragon and other wintergreen based products I have observed more tire wear than with good old Jack the Gripper.
Also using tire warmers to increase traction on foam tires will make em wear more.
How does one set of tires lasting 2 races, 2 days and three evenings of practice sound? That's quite normal for me.
Also, in 10th pancar a chunked tire is no real problem. Just make sure the tire isn't flopping around, and you'll barely notice anything.
This is opposed to 12th scale, where I've found running a chunked tire is a big disadvantage.
I wish you were on this side of the globe Adrian, I'de love to let you drive my car and let you see what I mean.
However, running 10th pan car outdoor, you have considerable less tire wear.
One thing to factor in is the traction compound you use. With Paragon and other wintergreen based products I have observed more tire wear than with good old Jack the Gripper.
Also using tire warmers to increase traction on foam tires will make em wear more.
How does one set of tires lasting 2 races, 2 days and three evenings of practice sound? That's quite normal for me.
Also, in 10th pancar a chunked tire is no real problem. Just make sure the tire isn't flopping around, and you'll barely notice anything.
This is opposed to 12th scale, where I've found running a chunked tire is a big disadvantage.
I wish you were on this side of the globe Adrian, I'de love to let you drive my car and let you see what I mean.
09-11-2006, 08:47 AM
#88
Tech Regular
Pro ten Holland,
Gotta agree with you on the foam wear, it's not really as bad as everyone thinks. Too bad there's no 1/10 pan car available in my country... TC is still mainstream
Gotta agree with you on the foam wear, it's not really as bad as everyone thinks. Too bad there's no 1/10 pan car available in my country... TC is still mainstream
09-11-2006, 08:54 AM
#89
yyhayyim- This post and the following by Pro-ten-Holland Contains a baseline setup for Asphalt on a bumpy track. Lower the ride height if the track is smooth. And of course look at the long post on this page by Pro ten Holland which includes a tire prep method.
I am running Magenta fronts and Pink rears at the moment but have white rears and purple fronts coming. My tires are wearing very well. They have not chunked yet. Had a slight separation from the rim which I reglued on one of the wing experiments. The big savings is that motor wear is much less on a large oudoor track. I was using $ 10 a run just on brushed motors in August in the touring car. I kid you not. The brushless would thermal or not hang together either.
On my track I had better high speed stability with 0 camber. I have lightened the rear side spring over stock to bring in the back end on corner exit. I have not tested this yet. I had white rear side springs (medium) originally and .020 inch wire diameter front springs (med hard) on the car. The car worked better with a softer center spring, but I got some chassis to track contact at the rear of the front pan so I am a little stiffer now (medium).
I am using 4 degrees of static caster on the 5 degree reactive caster mounts. Shims are to the back. The car corners well like this so I have not changed it. High speed stability is good now with the wing modifications I made.
I am running Magenta fronts and Pink rears at the moment but have white rears and purple fronts coming. My tires are wearing very well. They have not chunked yet. Had a slight separation from the rim which I reglued on one of the wing experiments. The big savings is that motor wear is much less on a large oudoor track. I was using $ 10 a run just on brushed motors in August in the touring car. I kid you not. The brushless would thermal or not hang together either.
On my track I had better high speed stability with 0 camber. I have lightened the rear side spring over stock to bring in the back end on corner exit. I have not tested this yet. I had white rear side springs (medium) originally and .020 inch wire diameter front springs (med hard) on the car. The car worked better with a softer center spring, but I got some chassis to track contact at the rear of the front pan so I am a little stiffer now (medium).
I am using 4 degrees of static caster on the 5 degree reactive caster mounts. Shims are to the back. The car corners well like this so I have not changed it. High speed stability is good now with the wing modifications I made.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-11-2006 at 10:18 AM.
09-11-2006, 02:25 PM
#90
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
yyhayyim- This post and the following by Pro-ten-Holland Contains a baseline setup for Asphalt on a bumpy track. Lower the ride height if the track is smooth. And of course look at the long post on this page by Pro ten Holland which includes a tire prep method..... High speed stability is good now with the wing modifications I made.