Traction Compounds : Health Risks : what can we do about this?
#556
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
Originally Posted by timmay70
Yeah that would suck like an industrial vacuum. Foam is all we have here in the north east. Rubber tires are for asphalt only. If you don't like foam tires, 1. don't race them, 2. dont make rules for people that like them.
#557
Hey TRFwhitey,
What do you think?
What do you think?
#558
OOOOOPPPSSSSS put you on the spot.
#559
Damn he just left the forum. lol
#560
Tech Elite
iTrader: (1)
rubber tyres are not an feasible option for 12th scale so you will always have foam. the cars are not heavy enough to "warm up" a rubber tyre without the tire being so soft it would blister in one race. try a car that only has 1/3 less power but is 55% lighter as for the driver that didn't put anything on you only made it around on the the lackluster jack the slipper that is on the track at trackside. I was at the summer sizzler last year and never put my car on the track till late friday night after the touring cars had put down a grove with jack the slipper and it was still a slip and slide. and since you seem to be centered on only touring car just as 12th scale is making a resurgence in the market you need to think outside your little realm. if you get rid of traction additives and you will finally put the nail in 12th scale coffin
just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.
signed 21 year 12th scale driver.
paragon user and abuser since 1986
and just remember it's all Barry Baker's fault he told them not to open the garage door at the nats so the compound in the carpet won't dry out and the bite would stay consistantly high. guess it worked for him. but Barry is my hero.
just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.
signed 21 year 12th scale driver.
paragon user and abuser since 1986
and just remember it's all Barry Baker's fault he told them not to open the garage door at the nats so the compound in the carpet won't dry out and the bite would stay consistantly high. guess it worked for him. but Barry is my hero.
#561
Tech Master
iTrader: (30)
blame it on the baker... yea yea.
a bakers' kids has no shoes.... no wait... or was it... a shoemakers kid gets high on... hmm...
bleh.
on a side note... Nash, you gotta up that speed on your camera so the action shots dont have a trailing blur making it look like the cars are going backwards ;-) (or is that the after effect of wintergreen)
pps, what traction compounds do they use in japan and europe? im sure they have some carpet action indoors.... and if anything they'd come up with something innovative no?
a bakers' kids has no shoes.... no wait... or was it... a shoemakers kid gets high on... hmm...
bleh.
on a side note... Nash, you gotta up that speed on your camera so the action shots dont have a trailing blur making it look like the cars are going backwards ;-) (or is that the after effect of wintergreen)
pps, what traction compounds do they use in japan and europe? im sure they have some carpet action indoors.... and if anything they'd come up with something innovative no?
#562
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
Originally Posted by nashrcracer
rubber tyres are not an feasible option for 12th scale so you will always have foam. the cars are not heavy enough to "warm up" a rubber tyre without the tire being so soft it would blister in one race. try a car that only has 1/3 less power but is 55% lighter as for the driver that didn't put anything on you only made it around on the the lackluster jack the slipper that is on the track at trackside. I was at the summer sizzler last year and never put my car on the track till late friday night after the touring cars had put down a grove with jack the slipper and it was still a slip and slide. and since you seem to be centered on only touring car just as 12th scale is making a resurgence in the market you need to think outside your little realm. if you get rid of traction additives and you will finally put the nail in 12th scale coffin
just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.
just a last thought if oil of wintergreen is put on a tire by it's self is it gooey or slick. and tq8 used oil of orange extract. would these just be an agent to hold in a compound like acetone or hextane or laquer thinner to keep it from evaporation. I would think that is all you have to find, one thing to soften and one thing to keep it from drying out over the course of 8 minutes. don't be closed minded to other classes. find a alterative and I'll use it. build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.
#563
I think nash was saying YOU more directed towards the thread as a group, not one single person...
And while you may think SG works great for Touring Car tires.....go to a world championship or even the Reedy Race.....the amount of secret sauce those guys bring for rubber tires is amazing.....every year there is a some new secret stuff that works the best......foam tires is umm....paragon.....secret crap never works as good as paragon...
I remember at a regionals we had a few years ago, one a factory driver had some special stuff he had gotten from someone at a big national race.....he was killing everyone in qualifying.....a couple of the other fast guys invaded his pits (they were all friends....)....and put it on their tires....they went from .5 second slower a lap to be on the same pace......
Simply put, the tire additive in rubber tires is WAY more than foam ever will be.....in foam, you run paragon or whatever yer track allows.....secret sauces rarely see daylight....
Later EddieO
And while you may think SG works great for Touring Car tires.....go to a world championship or even the Reedy Race.....the amount of secret sauce those guys bring for rubber tires is amazing.....every year there is a some new secret stuff that works the best......foam tires is umm....paragon.....secret crap never works as good as paragon...
I remember at a regionals we had a few years ago, one a factory driver had some special stuff he had gotten from someone at a big national race.....he was killing everyone in qualifying.....a couple of the other fast guys invaded his pits (they were all friends....)....and put it on their tires....they went from .5 second slower a lap to be on the same pace......
Simply put, the tire additive in rubber tires is WAY more than foam ever will be.....in foam, you run paragon or whatever yer track allows.....secret sauces rarely see daylight....
Later EddieO
#564
BP, It seems to me that is what you turned it into when you state that foam doesn't belong on sedans...
Compounding tires should/needs to continue, or we will be wearing out tires at an alarming rate. This alone will drive people out of the hobby. For big events where tires become one run wonders, I guess that it isn't an option. Club racing, my tires last a good long time, and I expect them to (as they did at the Carpet Nats).
I never stated that I have to have the current toxic dopes that we use. Matter of fact, my earlier posts indicate that I am fully for a compound that is not life threatening. Since the north east will never see a full conversion to rubber tire any time soon (imo), if GE and other compounds get outlawed, there better be an acceptable (legalized) replacement.
Also, while in Vegas last year I recall rubber tire guys doping their rubber shod cars with the Jack just like the foam guys did... imo, just as guilty of spreading fumes.
I think the biggest problem with 'testing' a new compound, is avoiding the chemical soup that will develop on a carpet while trying to find a new compound. Otherwise, the track will become a slip-n-slide for more than a while. Even worse, what if there is a bad chemical reaction to the mix that is going down on the track. For good test results, we need a track that doesn't mind shampooing or steam cleaning between trials to get good test results.
Another thought, since most of the traction fluids that are commonly used on carpet tracks is petrolium/oil based, it could be relatively easy to treat the air in the rooms that we race in. I worked in the environmental industry for quite a while, and one way to cut down on hydorcarbon emmisssions was to feed the fluids that we were treating through some sort of carbon filtering. This was for gases and liquids. While not 100% effective and other treatment methods were employed to further meet government specs (which get relaxed every time a bush gets elected). Simple box fans with carbon filled airfilter elements on either side placed around the room could probably lower the emissions to a more acceptable level until an acceptable replacement is found. Redneck engineering, could work... needs an engineer to do the calcs.. Or someone with a couple of extra box fans and some carbon filters... I just might try that one, problem is, I like the smell of wintergreen.
Compounding tires should/needs to continue, or we will be wearing out tires at an alarming rate. This alone will drive people out of the hobby. For big events where tires become one run wonders, I guess that it isn't an option. Club racing, my tires last a good long time, and I expect them to (as they did at the Carpet Nats).
I never stated that I have to have the current toxic dopes that we use. Matter of fact, my earlier posts indicate that I am fully for a compound that is not life threatening. Since the north east will never see a full conversion to rubber tire any time soon (imo), if GE and other compounds get outlawed, there better be an acceptable (legalized) replacement.
Also, while in Vegas last year I recall rubber tire guys doping their rubber shod cars with the Jack just like the foam guys did... imo, just as guilty of spreading fumes.
I think the biggest problem with 'testing' a new compound, is avoiding the chemical soup that will develop on a carpet while trying to find a new compound. Otherwise, the track will become a slip-n-slide for more than a while. Even worse, what if there is a bad chemical reaction to the mix that is going down on the track. For good test results, we need a track that doesn't mind shampooing or steam cleaning between trials to get good test results.
Another thought, since most of the traction fluids that are commonly used on carpet tracks is petrolium/oil based, it could be relatively easy to treat the air in the rooms that we race in. I worked in the environmental industry for quite a while, and one way to cut down on hydorcarbon emmisssions was to feed the fluids that we were treating through some sort of carbon filtering. This was for gases and liquids. While not 100% effective and other treatment methods were employed to further meet government specs (which get relaxed every time a bush gets elected). Simple box fans with carbon filled airfilter elements on either side placed around the room could probably lower the emissions to a more acceptable level until an acceptable replacement is found. Redneck engineering, could work... needs an engineer to do the calcs.. Or someone with a couple of extra box fans and some carbon filters... I just might try that one, problem is, I like the smell of wintergreen.
#565
Tech Master
iTrader: (30)
at this point,
we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...
:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...
if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.
take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....
if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...
:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...
if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.
take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....
if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
#566
Tech Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by RCMits
at this point,
we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...
:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...
if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.
take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....
if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
we should consider something else more important than this long heated argument...
:how to keep tracks open
:how to attract new racers
:how to support our local tracks
:then how to ventilate tracks etc...
if a track closes, who cares if this stuff causes problems. it'll just sit on the shelf.
take this effort, show someone rc, show them a race, show them how to solder a battery, show them how to tune a motor...make it enjoyable to race and learn the dynamics of off/on/touring/pan/ racing.....
if there are no tracks, ill just end up making my kitchen smell like wintergreen.
#567
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
I tend to follow the lines too of rubber for TC sedans and foam for pancars. Although this winter I have been running 1 set of foams because rubber was not cutting it in an open tire TC stock class. The problem with foams and sedans you get guys trueing down their tires to next to nothing to gain an advantage. Yeah at big races you deal with 1 run wonders but on a local level I do think you should be able to make a set of tires last longer than 1 weekend. Luckily the current club I run with is a little different allowing me to stretch the life of my tires...
To keep people in the hobby there needs to be classes built for the average person that does not allow factory drivers and their trends to "spend money" (sponsor deals) that the average person cannot afford. Usually many factory guys run in stock, when really they should be in 19T or mod classes. I know that killed my interest in pancar oval stock, in its heyday. I have friends that don't get out much to race, they drive well but I could see them in a spec class that does not exhist locally, yet. . .
Back to the subject, probably the best solution is to have an alternative that works, is non-toxic and people are willing to support. If you totally ban it, there will always be guys showing up with tires that soaked over night or swapped with legal fluids to look legit. If there was a safer alternative, especially if it worked well with a safe easy to detect smell, you will eliminate or ban most of the "chemists" that want to experiment. . .
To keep people in the hobby there needs to be classes built for the average person that does not allow factory drivers and their trends to "spend money" (sponsor deals) that the average person cannot afford. Usually many factory guys run in stock, when really they should be in 19T or mod classes. I know that killed my interest in pancar oval stock, in its heyday. I have friends that don't get out much to race, they drive well but I could see them in a spec class that does not exhist locally, yet. . .
Back to the subject, probably the best solution is to have an alternative that works, is non-toxic and people are willing to support. If you totally ban it, there will always be guys showing up with tires that soaked over night or swapped with legal fluids to look legit. If there was a safer alternative, especially if it worked well with a safe easy to detect smell, you will eliminate or ban most of the "chemists" that want to experiment. . .
#569
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
Originally Posted by RCMits
we're mostly adults here.. this isn't high school.
if a track decides "we cant run this traction compound" , we SHOULD be able to follow those rules...
--- in a perfect world ---
since im sure we've all seen people argue over the smallest minute idiotic thing.
if a track decides "we cant run this traction compound" , we SHOULD be able to follow those rules...
--- in a perfect world ---
since im sure we've all seen people argue over the smallest minute idiotic thing.
At this point in life we should stay away from cancer causing agents and stuff that attacks the nevous system when it is absorbed into the bloodstream, we should all be smart enough to do that, but hey if it makes the toy car drive around the rug .05 seconds faster a lap then damn the statistics and consequences. And by the way, I am all for finding an alternative, but if one cant be found then I say ban it. Even with ventilation you still have exposure.
#570
Tech Elite
iTrader: (1)
thank you eddie yes it was directed at the group.
so you ban all tire dope for TC and run 1 run foams due to the manufactors making the foam sooo soft that it will wear .50 in one run. just remember to gear up one tooth before you go out. but as you go out you haven't banned it for 12th scale so the 12th scales put it down and the sniffer picks up that you have dope on your TC tire. DQed every TC in the race.
like I said build a better mouse trap. you don't have to test it on the track you just need a new set of tires and a durometer and a stop watch. I'm sure the major manufactures would help you out martin with scratch and dent tires to test on. so you put something on, check it's softness, time it check it 5 and 8 minutes later. the only thing is you would have to use paragon for your reference. might need a friend to help.
had the camera for a year still haven't figured it out thinking of buying a slr before vegas and elimiate that problem. oh wait I got to buy some more one run tires.
attached is how I spent my saturday. I announce the races at the local indoor track. I'm third from the right on the stand. we did ban people using desiel on the tires as people got sick from it. but buggy grip works fine.
so you ban all tire dope for TC and run 1 run foams due to the manufactors making the foam sooo soft that it will wear .50 in one run. just remember to gear up one tooth before you go out. but as you go out you haven't banned it for 12th scale so the 12th scales put it down and the sniffer picks up that you have dope on your TC tire. DQed every TC in the race.
like I said build a better mouse trap. you don't have to test it on the track you just need a new set of tires and a durometer and a stop watch. I'm sure the major manufactures would help you out martin with scratch and dent tires to test on. so you put something on, check it's softness, time it check it 5 and 8 minutes later. the only thing is you would have to use paragon for your reference. might need a friend to help.
had the camera for a year still haven't figured it out thinking of buying a slr before vegas and elimiate that problem. oh wait I got to buy some more one run tires.
attached is how I spent my saturday. I announce the races at the local indoor track. I'm third from the right on the stand. we did ban people using desiel on the tires as people got sick from it. but buggy grip works fine.
Last edited by nashrcracer; 03-21-2007 at 10:53 PM.