150LikesThe future of stock brushless motors?
02-23-2017, 08:06 AM
#91
Well, again, you don't need a 2.5T, a 10.5 or 8.5 are plenty to start with in mod.
Also, if more moved out like they should, you would be racing with the same group of locals that you currently are in stock. Granted, if you were winning stock weekly, youre not likely to win mod immediately, but thats how racing goes and thats what keeps guys in stock forever... everyone wants to win. Unfortunately thats why you get those life long stock drivers that just love to be on the cutting edge of motors and batteries.
And yes, my previous post was 100% true. If you ran any large race that is not ran by roar, you're likely racing people doing the same thing I described.
Also, if more moved out like they should, you would be racing with the same group of locals that you currently are in stock. Granted, if you were winning stock weekly, youre not likely to win mod immediately, but thats how racing goes and thats what keeps guys in stock forever... everyone wants to win. Unfortunately thats why you get those life long stock drivers that just love to be on the cutting edge of motors and batteries.
And yes, my previous post was 100% true. If you ran any large race that is not ran by roar, you're likely racing people doing the same thing I described.
02-23-2017, 08:15 AM
#92
Regardless of the motor debates, what is funny to me is stock racing was originally intended to be a stepping stone to move into racing in a cost effective class, get your feet wet and then move up. If your fast enough in stock that you are searching for the newest, latest and greatest of motors, you need to move out of the class. I come from the off road world, so maybe the on road side is different?
Stock is a very competitive class locally with guys charging at 40A, running batteries that are on the verge of exploding with fire, gearing and timing their motors to the moon etc. In the end, if you moved out of the class to modified (or 13.5 if that is ran locally) it will be cheaper for you to race in the long run (you need 1 motor - mod is mod - you don't need a 2.5, you're not the next world champion... if you can drive well with a 8.5 , put it in and run it.), you don't need to charge at 40A so your IR is as low as possible, you don't need to gear to the moon to run the motor to 170 degrees etc.
Just my thoughts.
Stock is a very competitive class locally with guys charging at 40A, running batteries that are on the verge of exploding with fire, gearing and timing their motors to the moon etc. In the end, if you moved out of the class to modified (or 13.5 if that is ran locally) it will be cheaper for you to race in the long run (you need 1 motor - mod is mod - you don't need a 2.5, you're not the next world champion... if you can drive well with a 8.5 , put it in and run it.), you don't need to charge at 40A so your IR is as low as possible, you don't need to gear to the moon to run the motor to 170 degrees etc.
Just my thoughts.
The good thing about modified is that it can NEVER be too fast. And if you find that it is too fast it is because you chose to over power your car. At the AOC race (Shanghai) two years ago most of the guys were racing with 4.5 motors while Nicholas Lee was using a 10.5. He was on the podium.
Even I run a 5.0 when others run 4.5. I choose a little less power because I am faster with less. But this is another argument. There is also human nature involved and the more classes we have the more winners we have. Even if one could step up to and handle a modified motor, the chance of winning a big race is pretty slim. That is why the DNC has five nitro buggy classes - with no differences in equipment among them.
02-23-2017, 08:20 AM
#93
some racers just like the class they are in...and if winning is all you are in this hobby for, then you are in the wrong hobby...cause more people lose, than will ever win...even the greats of all sports lose....name one who hasnt?....
I wouldnt even consider asking a racer to move out of a class....and nobody else should. Thats a racer that supports the hobby by buying all this stuff and putting entry fee money at the track...and going to big races that have 300-400 entries....so lets piss him off to lose that?....and lets not forget, the guy who buys all the latest crap...is taking a chance that it might be a waste of money...he may get a dog motor, or a flat lipo,....and he can pass that info on to others...hence saving them money
see guys...morals and what one might consider right or wrong, isnt the problem...cause half will agree...the other half wont. The current rules allow this to take place. They are legal motors...no matter what we think. When ROAR changes the rules...then we will have another group to ?????? about that rule change...
so Im stepping down of my soapbox to do some real work, so I can afford that $200 motor...J/K...Im sponsored, it doesnt cost me that much lllloooolllll
go to work
I wouldnt even consider asking a racer to move out of a class....and nobody else should. Thats a racer that supports the hobby by buying all this stuff and putting entry fee money at the track...and going to big races that have 300-400 entries....so lets piss him off to lose that?....and lets not forget, the guy who buys all the latest crap...is taking a chance that it might be a waste of money...he may get a dog motor, or a flat lipo,....and he can pass that info on to others...hence saving them money
see guys...morals and what one might consider right or wrong, isnt the problem...cause half will agree...the other half wont. The current rules allow this to take place. They are legal motors...no matter what we think. When ROAR changes the rules...then we will have another group to ?????? about that rule change...
so Im stepping down of my soapbox to do some real work, so I can afford that $200 motor...J/K...Im sponsored, it doesnt cost me that much lllloooolllll
go to work
02-23-2017, 08:42 AM
#95
This is pretty much all correct. You will definitely see more "handout motor" spec classes that will replace the open motor variety we have now. On-road has really fallen off and the high costs and complexity are surely part of it. Beware - off-road is heading that way.
02-23-2017, 08:49 AM
#96
The biggest problem Stock isn't stock anymore. It's SPEC racing, spec racing is expensive. In RC, in full size Road Course cars, and Dirt Late models (the three area's I SPEC race).
Spec Racing is racer speak for throw money at it.
Spec Racing is racer speak for throw money at it.
02-23-2017, 08:56 AM
#97
This is pretty much all correct. You will definitely see more "handout motor" spec classes that will replace the open motor variety we have now. On-road has really fallen off and the high costs and complexity are surely part of it. Beware - off-road is heading that way.
You should never be forced to run a specific class, but at the same time the questions come up weekly about why are stock motors getting so fast, where is the line of legal between brands etc. Best way to solve all questions is leave stock racing to the entry level racer looking to get their feet wet in racing, and race in the next class up.
02-23-2017, 08:57 AM
#98
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
I like the feedback you guys have so far. I think this is what I've seen so far.
Nearly everyone hates the idea of packing thermal epoxy in the stator for 2 reasons. The first being it would push the price of hand tuned motors over $180 and a mass produced version would likely have air pockets and hot spots. Done.
Most would like to see a stator resistance limit similar to the current 25.5, equal to the hottest stuff we have now. This should NOT outlaw any current stuff, but rather keep us from repeating the cycle in January 2019.
While the old ban on the 17.5 D3.5 was technically right, it was poorly received by people who had just spent good money on them and got screwed. If they were to outlaw TSR "the one", Motiv MC2, Maclan TE, and maybe the top R1 or Fantom, we would loose a lot of fed up racers. Let's not go there ever again.
We also had some questions about sedan chassis. First I have to admit I'm guilty of running my 16 Xray in USGT. It's nice when the out of the box setup with just a couple droop changes is 100% on pace. There are other options that aren't as pricey if you look hard. I'm sure I could run good laps with a Sukura Advance, if I spent 2 weeks tuning it.
I could also dig a 12 year old Corally RDX out of somebody's basement, swap the foam tires for spec rubber and drop the spring rates 20% and run good laps in USGT. I don't feel it's the same as being down 18% on power.
Nearly everyone hates the idea of packing thermal epoxy in the stator for 2 reasons. The first being it would push the price of hand tuned motors over $180 and a mass produced version would likely have air pockets and hot spots. Done.
Most would like to see a stator resistance limit similar to the current 25.5, equal to the hottest stuff we have now. This should NOT outlaw any current stuff, but rather keep us from repeating the cycle in January 2019.
While the old ban on the 17.5 D3.5 was technically right, it was poorly received by people who had just spent good money on them and got screwed. If they were to outlaw TSR "the one", Motiv MC2, Maclan TE, and maybe the top R1 or Fantom, we would loose a lot of fed up racers. Let's not go there ever again.
We also had some questions about sedan chassis. First I have to admit I'm guilty of running my 16 Xray in USGT. It's nice when the out of the box setup with just a couple droop changes is 100% on pace. There are other options that aren't as pricey if you look hard. I'm sure I could run good laps with a Sukura Advance, if I spent 2 weeks tuning it.
I could also dig a 12 year old Corally RDX out of somebody's basement, swap the foam tires for spec rubber and drop the spring rates 20% and run good laps in USGT. I don't feel it's the same as being down 18% on power.
02-23-2017, 09:04 AM
#99
Not everybody wins, but most would like to pay their way to the top.... New everything makes sure the industry sells more than guarantees a win... Have fun within your budget, and don't laugh at those running an older car that still runs a faster laptime than your latest and greatest chassis/motor/battery, etc,...
02-23-2017, 09:06 AM
#100
I like the feedback you guys have so far. I think this is what I've seen so far.
Nearly everyone hates the idea of packing thermal epoxy in the stator for 2 reasons. The first being it would push the price of hand tuned motors over $180 and a mass produced version would likely have air pockets and hot spots. Done.
Most would like to see a stator resistance limit similar to the current 25.5, equal to the hottest stuff we have now. This should NOT outlaw any current stuff, but rather keep us from repeating the cycle in January 2019.
While the old ban on the 17.5 D3.5 was technically right, it was poorly received by people who had just spent good money on them and got screwed. If they were to outlaw TSR "the one", Motiv MC2, Maclan TE, and maybe the top R1 or Fantom, we would loose a lot of fed up racers. Let's not go there ever again.
We also had some questions about sedan chassis. First I have to admit I'm guilty of running my 16 Xray in USGT. It's nice when the out of the box setup with just a couple droop changes is 100% on pace. There are other options that aren't as pricey if you look hard. I'm sure I could run good laps with a Sukura Advance, if I spent 2 weeks tuning it.
I could also dig a 12 year old Corally RDX out of somebody's basement, swap the foam tires for spec rubber and drop the spring rates 20% and run good laps in USGT. I don't feel it's the same as being down 18% on power.
Nearly everyone hates the idea of packing thermal epoxy in the stator for 2 reasons. The first being it would push the price of hand tuned motors over $180 and a mass produced version would likely have air pockets and hot spots. Done.
Most would like to see a stator resistance limit similar to the current 25.5, equal to the hottest stuff we have now. This should NOT outlaw any current stuff, but rather keep us from repeating the cycle in January 2019.
While the old ban on the 17.5 D3.5 was technically right, it was poorly received by people who had just spent good money on them and got screwed. If they were to outlaw TSR "the one", Motiv MC2, Maclan TE, and maybe the top R1 or Fantom, we would loose a lot of fed up racers. Let's not go there ever again.
We also had some questions about sedan chassis. First I have to admit I'm guilty of running my 16 Xray in USGT. It's nice when the out of the box setup with just a couple droop changes is 100% on pace. There are other options that aren't as pricey if you look hard. I'm sure I could run good laps with a Sukura Advance, if I spent 2 weeks tuning it.
I could also dig a 12 year old Corally RDX out of somebody's basement, swap the foam tires for spec rubber and drop the spring rates 20% and run good laps in USGT. I don't feel it's the same as being down 18% on power.
02-23-2017, 09:10 AM
#101
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
I also see the locked timing thing or spec motor thing come up. I'm not a fan of those. Timing is too dependent on driving style and not being able to clean a motor helps nobody. Due to personal experience in a spec 2wd buggy class, I also would recommend that tracks who do a single spec class should make the spec slightly hotter than the regular class it replaces. The reason why is that during the transition from regular stock to spec, there will be holdouts and guys who are on a budget. The regular stock will always be run together with the spec class if there are only 3 or 4 of each motor. When slow spec motor the same wind as hot team motor has crashers outrunning the spec drivers down the straight, the spec motors disappear fast. A slow spec 13.5 could run with hot 17.5's with less of this. At that point it wouldn't be worth swapping motors back to a hot 17.5.
02-23-2017, 09:45 AM
#103
I also see the locked timing thing or spec motor thing come up. I'm not a fan of those. Timing is too dependent on driving style and not being able to clean a motor helps nobody. Due to personal experience in a spec 2wd buggy class, I also would recommend that tracks who do a single spec class should make the spec slightly hotter than the regular class it replaces. The reason why is that during the transition from regular stock to spec, there will be holdouts and guys who are on a budget. The regular stock will always be run together with the spec class if there are only 3 or 4 of each motor. When slow spec motor the same wind as hot team motor has crashers outrunning the spec drivers down the straight, the spec motors disappear fast. A slow spec 13.5 could run with hot 17.5's with less of this. At that point it wouldn't be worth swapping motors back to a hot 17.5.
New 17.5s are as you said as fast as most older 13.5 motors . So if a club was to allow racers to run 13.5 motors approved say in 2015 in 17.5 it would save newer budget racers mony same applies to 21.5 classes allowing older 17.5 motors to be ran on club level races ... Just to save money .
02-23-2017, 10:15 AM
#105
Tech Regular
Thread Starter
The peer pressure at that point is usually enough. No need to be a dick at all.