ROAR Rules: Should there be a $$ limit on batteries for approval?
09-10-2008, 07:50 PM
#1
ROAR Rules: Should there be a $$ limit on batteries for approval?
So if I understand the ROAR rules correctly there is a maximum price for motors under the rules but there is no such rule for batteries. With some lipo packs costing more than motors now (see the new EP packs for example), should there be a $$ limit on batteries as well for approval? Just throwing it out there. Lots of people complaining about the price of the hobby. If the "gotta have 35C+ pack" blows everything else away but costs $200 is that good for the hobby? Esp if you likely need a couple?
09-10-2008, 10:38 PM
#3
ROAR just limit though voltage, 7.4v. Which ever product you purchase, that is approved by ROAR, Orion, Trakpower, TeamCheckpoint, etc.. It's all up to ourselves which work better. $$ wise differance of $25-$35 between the products. Depends on your wallet.
09-11-2008, 05:20 AM
#4
Same old battery war just different technology. They need a standardized discharge rating system to help determin the actual from astrpnomical "C" ratings. Put a MAH cap in place, 3200 mah and as much "C" as they can stuff in there. Only real way I see to control it is to go to spec pack racing, or handout batteries same as motor and tires. That will only work on the upper leavel racing.
Tim
Tim
09-11-2008, 05:42 AM
#5
There is still a big difference in average voltage, you can take a "7.4v" Orion 4800 with an AV of 7.02 or so vs an SMC with AV of 7.37, this makes a prety big difference on the track, especially in slower classes. I don't see 17.5 and 13.5 motors benefiting so much from 35C, but faster than that should see a difference. 90% of the hobby doesn't run mod these days anyway, I think an MSRP cap would be a good idea, it could be revised every year to keep up with inflation and exchange rates.
09-11-2008, 05:56 AM
#6
Yeah, I was looking at it like this. Let's say someone comes out with a new "40C" pack and the price is $300 per pack. It averages on a track around .1 to .2 faster per lap (at my track that is the difference between the top of the A and the bottom). Basically if you don't have one you dont have a shot to win. So then the first person spends the $700 to get two (to practice and race). Everyone else must then follow. If I'm not mistaken the cap for a brushless motor is $110 for approval. But batteries could get much more expensive. The new 5200 Trinity 35C EP Cell has a MSRP of $206. Not sure what the street price will be but it looks like its could very well be the most expensive lipo available. If in a time that everyone is complaining about the cost of the hobby driving people away why the double standard on $$$ limits of items ROAR must approve.
Not a debate on if C ratings are worth it or real. Im just talking about the possible scenario in which an item really is .1 or .2 faster on the track but comes with a huge price tag.
Not a debate on if C ratings are worth it or real. Im just talking about the possible scenario in which an item really is .1 or .2 faster on the track but comes with a huge price tag.
09-11-2008, 06:12 AM
#7
Yes, something needs to be done to bring these Mfg's back to reality. The price of some of these Lipo's is crazy expensive. I run $35 yeah racing lipo's, and $110 trakpowers, both have worked very well for me, and to be honest my $35 pack has been as good as my $110 pack.
I feel that next year when 17.5 becomes stock, and 13.5 moves to the super sport class, atleast those classes should be capped in some way on Mah, or by price. Open Mod should stay open with run whatever equipment you feel will make you win.
I feel that next year when 17.5 becomes stock, and 13.5 moves to the super sport class, atleast those classes should be capped in some way on Mah, or by price. Open Mod should stay open with run whatever equipment you feel will make you win.
09-11-2008, 06:19 AM
#8
Isn't advancement wonderful?
First everyone complains until the stuff gets legalized, that people will only have to buy only one battery a year, and that there is no advantage from one to another... Now people are bitching when the same major brands that were selling these same type products previously are raising their prices to keep the same or better income they had previously, inflating their numbers so that they look better than the other brands, and back to battery of the week wars... Now they are looking for performance caps. Wow, I didn't see that one coming and call it out in the 500 retarded threads... What's next, you are all going to call down crap on ROAR for not having the foresight to create rules already for things they couldn't fathom would be problems?
Everyone wants to have their cake and to eat it too... Let's start another couple 5000 threads having a temper tantrum for why the same fast guys are fast.
First everyone complains until the stuff gets legalized, that people will only have to buy only one battery a year, and that there is no advantage from one to another... Now people are bitching when the same major brands that were selling these same type products previously are raising their prices to keep the same or better income they had previously, inflating their numbers so that they look better than the other brands, and back to battery of the week wars... Now they are looking for performance caps. Wow, I didn't see that one coming and call it out in the 500 retarded threads... What's next, you are all going to call down crap on ROAR for not having the foresight to create rules already for things they couldn't fathom would be problems?
Everyone wants to have their cake and to eat it too... Let's start another couple 5000 threads having a temper tantrum for why the same fast guys are fast.
09-11-2008, 06:27 AM
#9
Isn't advancement wonderful?
First everyone complains until the stuff gets legalized, that people will only have to buy only one battery a year, and that there is no advantage from one to another... Now people are bitching when the same major brands that were selling these same type products previously are raising their prices to keep the same or better income they had previously, inflating their numbers so that they look better than the other brands, and back to battery of the week wars... Now they are looking for performance caps. Wow, I didn't see that one coming and call it out in the 500 retarded threads... What's next, you are all going to call down crap on ROAR for not having the foresight to create rules already for things they couldn't fathom would be problems?
Everyone wants to have their cake and to eat it too... Let's start another couple 5000 threads having a temper tantrum for why the same fast guys are fast.
First everyone complains until the stuff gets legalized, that people will only have to buy only one battery a year, and that there is no advantage from one to another... Now people are bitching when the same major brands that were selling these same type products previously are raising their prices to keep the same or better income they had previously, inflating their numbers so that they look better than the other brands, and back to battery of the week wars... Now they are looking for performance caps. Wow, I didn't see that one coming and call it out in the 500 retarded threads... What's next, you are all going to call down crap on ROAR for not having the foresight to create rules already for things they couldn't fathom would be problems?
Everyone wants to have their cake and to eat it too... Let's start another couple 5000 threads having a temper tantrum for why the same fast guys are fast.
In all seriousness, I have no idea what you just said.
My point was merely there is a price cap on motors. It seems with batteries there is some performance gains that can be made that come at a huge cost. I know Rick H. said they could do a 35C pack but the price would be through the roof. Does ROAR head that off? I would say among the packs now there does seem to be only a negligable difference between them. This is a hypothetical.
09-11-2008, 07:07 AM
#10
In reality does ROAR mean that much? I have been to 1 race in the last 4 years that anyone cared about ROAR approval. It's hard enough to just get people to run stock and 6 cells in stock.
What we really need is education, C rating is a discharge rating. So in 17.5 or stock anything thats extremely high won't be an advantage, since your system won't have that high of an amp draw.
What we really need is education, C rating is a discharge rating. So in 17.5 or stock anything thats extremely high won't be an advantage, since your system won't have that high of an amp draw.
09-11-2008, 07:08 AM
#11
Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. /~Billy Madison
In all seriousness, I have no idea what you just said.
My point was merely there is a price cap on motors. It seems with batteries there is some performance gains that can be made that come at a huge cost. I know Rick H. said they could do a 35C pack but the price would be through the roof. Does ROAR head that off? I would say among the packs now there does seem to be only a negligable difference between them. This is a hypothetical.
In all seriousness, I have no idea what you just said.
My point was merely there is a price cap on motors. It seems with batteries there is some performance gains that can be made that come at a huge cost. I know Rick H. said they could do a 35C pack but the price would be through the roof. Does ROAR head that off? I would say among the packs now there does seem to be only a negligable difference between them. This is a hypothetical.
One of the problems I could see IF ROAR did put a price limit on batteries is manufactures using lower quality cells to sell to meet the profit margins. Who's to say that the cells that get approved through ROAR would be the same ones that are sold to the public? We have no way of knowing unless the ROAR Lipo guy (Ling) is there to dissassemble packs and look.
The other thing is Say its limited to 200.00 max retail. That would cover all lipo's currently for sale. There may be someone out there that will keep selling what is out now but have 35C stuff for their team drivers and no way you can tell it at the track.
I LOVE lipo racing.....but I'll say what I said 2 years ago. There is always going to be a battery war and that with Lipo's the more money you spend with the manufacture's the better cells you can get....this was simply not true with NIMH cells.
EA
09-11-2008, 07:18 AM
#12
One other thing I thought of. What happens if the Retail is set at 200.00 max. So the importers decide that we will retail the pack for that but instead of a distributors normal say 60% discount they cut it to 25% or just start selling direct themselves. What happens to the Hobbyshops and tracks?
There are quite a few consequences that can come about that must be thought out before jumping the gun. Lipo's are still new technology as far as Racing goes but it should stablilze before too long with the size restrictions that ROAR has in place. Unlike NIMH cells the lipo cells size does seem to increase proportionally to mah ratings and C ratings.
EA
There are quite a few consequences that can come about that must be thought out before jumping the gun. Lipo's are still new technology as far as Racing goes but it should stablilze before too long with the size restrictions that ROAR has in place. Unlike NIMH cells the lipo cells size does seem to increase proportionally to mah ratings and C ratings.
EA
09-11-2008, 07:22 AM
#13
In reality does ROAR mean that much? I have been to 1 race in the last 4 years that anyone cared about ROAR approval. It's hard enough to just get people to run stock and 6 cells in stock.
What we really need is education, C rating is a discharge rating. So in 17.5 or stock anything thats extremely high won't be an advantage, since your system won't have that high of an amp draw.
What we really need is education, C rating is a discharge rating. So in 17.5 or stock anything thats extremely high won't be an advantage, since your system won't have that high of an amp draw.
As I said this is a not a debate on what C means and doesn't mean.
09-11-2008, 07:29 AM
#14
One other thing I thought of. What happens if the Retail is set at 200.00 max. So the importers decide that we will retail the pack for that but instead of a distributors normal say 60% discount they cut it to 25% or just start selling direct themselves. What happens to the Hobbyshops and tracks?
There are quite a few consequences that can come about that must be thought out before jumping the gun. Lipo's are still new technology as far as Racing goes but it should stablilze before too long with the size restrictions that ROAR has in place. Unlike NIMH cells the lipo cells size does seem to increase proportionally to mah ratings and C ratings.
EA
There are quite a few consequences that can come about that must be thought out before jumping the gun. Lipo's are still new technology as far as Racing goes but it should stablilze before too long with the size restrictions that ROAR has in place. Unlike NIMH cells the lipo cells size does seem to increase proportionally to mah ratings and C ratings.
EA
For motors doesn't the rule start they have to prove sold motors to distributors? So that cuts down on directs I suspect? Not sure what the markup on lipos are. You would know better then me. 60% would seem to put it in line with "parts" markup and 25% would put in line with "electronics" markups.
On the flip side, should the motor $$$ limit be removed?
09-11-2008, 07:44 AM
#15
I do agree that with the restrictions in place at some point (hopefully sooner then later) the tech that can fit within that will come close to maxing out. As every lipo maker approaches that you will see prices start to drop with competition.
For motors doesn't the rule start they have to prove sold motors to distributors? So that cuts down on directs I suspect? Not sure what the markup on lipos are. You would know better then me. 60% would seem to put it in line with "parts" markup and 25% would put in line with "electronics" markups.
On the flip side, should the motor $$$ limit be removed?
For motors doesn't the rule start they have to prove sold motors to distributors? So that cuts down on directs I suspect? Not sure what the markup on lipos are. You would know better then me. 60% would seem to put it in line with "parts" markup and 25% would put in line with "electronics" markups.
On the flip side, should the motor $$$ limit be removed?
For motors I believe it states that so many motors have to be sold but I dont think it states how they must be sold. I am not 100% sure on the wording.
For the percentages I used I just pulled those out of the air. I have no clue what the actual markups are vrs retail. Those were purely for example purposes but you got the general idea I was making.
I dont think the motor $$ should be removed but with the rising cost of building supples (along with every freaking other thing) I do think it needs to re-evaluated at some point in time soon.
EA