Spec tires@ national level races
09-17-2004, 01:35 PM
#31
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Re: Clearing things up...
Originally posted by AdrianM
Hi guys...I'm Adrian Martinez, the sales manager from Schumacher USA. We are the exclusive importer of Take Off Tires into the US. I am responsible for every US race run on these tires since 2000.
There are a couple of reasons why Take Offs seem to keep popping up everywhere
1. There are a lot of tires out there that are very fast for one run but only the CS series tires seem to be able to turn consistent laps from the 1st to the 4th run. Other tires are 2-3/10th's per lap slower on the 2nd run and lose more every run after that. This is a big deal when you are limiting the quantity of tires used. It used to be that heats where you had to run re-runs were throwaway heats. In Portland most of the factory guys liked the tires best on the 2nd run. That is unheard of.
2. We heavily discount them to the race organizers so they can offer them to racers at a low cost.
3. All race tires are sold on consignment so the promoters can send back all unused/unopened packs. They never get stuck with extra tires.
4. The are premounted so the promoters can avoid the impossible task of insert tech. This also saves a lot of time for the racers.
5. Take Off tires are the most popular rubber racing tire in the US today. Actually they are the most popular in Europe too. This means everyone is familiar with them.
Open tire problems
The last big open tire race we went to was the Novak race in 2001. We bought $2000 worth of various tires. $1200 in various inserts. This was for 2 guys to run Mod. In the end the best tires were the Yok 139G prototypes that Chris Tosolini had received a few days before the race. No one else had them. Chris gave a few sets out to our guys as we used to sponsor him and he really is a good guy and thats what we ran. $3200 spent on tires that were useless.
This wasn't the first time that happened either. At the 2000 Carpet Nats at Minnreg Yokomo showed up with new 138S and 138M tires. No one else had them and Barry Win that year. They were a huge advantage at that track.
At the 1999 and 2000 Reedy races at Ripon Barry figure out a trick to make H13's way faster. You had to run an Echo Insert (from Schumacher so he had to tell us) Dremel down the center ridge of the insert, cut the insert, shorten it by 6mm and glue it back together then trim inner bead ridges from the wheel. This was the only way to make the tire run decent for more than one run. For those 2 years Yokomo and Schumacher had an advantage no one else knew about.
Spec tires eliminate all of this funny business.
Hi guys...I'm Adrian Martinez, the sales manager from Schumacher USA. We are the exclusive importer of Take Off Tires into the US. I am responsible for every US race run on these tires since 2000.
There are a couple of reasons why Take Offs seem to keep popping up everywhere
1. There are a lot of tires out there that are very fast for one run but only the CS series tires seem to be able to turn consistent laps from the 1st to the 4th run. Other tires are 2-3/10th's per lap slower on the 2nd run and lose more every run after that. This is a big deal when you are limiting the quantity of tires used. It used to be that heats where you had to run re-runs were throwaway heats. In Portland most of the factory guys liked the tires best on the 2nd run. That is unheard of.
2. We heavily discount them to the race organizers so they can offer them to racers at a low cost.
3. All race tires are sold on consignment so the promoters can send back all unused/unopened packs. They never get stuck with extra tires.
4. The are premounted so the promoters can avoid the impossible task of insert tech. This also saves a lot of time for the racers.
5. Take Off tires are the most popular rubber racing tire in the US today. Actually they are the most popular in Europe too. This means everyone is familiar with them.
Open tire problems
The last big open tire race we went to was the Novak race in 2001. We bought $2000 worth of various tires. $1200 in various inserts. This was for 2 guys to run Mod. In the end the best tires were the Yok 139G prototypes that Chris Tosolini had received a few days before the race. No one else had them. Chris gave a few sets out to our guys as we used to sponsor him and he really is a good guy and thats what we ran. $3200 spent on tires that were useless.
This wasn't the first time that happened either. At the 2000 Carpet Nats at Minnreg Yokomo showed up with new 138S and 138M tires. No one else had them and Barry Win that year. They were a huge advantage at that track.
At the 1999 and 2000 Reedy races at Ripon Barry figure out a trick to make H13's way faster. You had to run an Echo Insert (from Schumacher so he had to tell us) Dremel down the center ridge of the insert, cut the insert, shorten it by 6mm and glue it back together then trim inner bead ridges from the wheel. This was the only way to make the tire run decent for more than one run. For those 2 years Yokomo and Schumacher had an advantage no one else knew about.
Spec tires eliminate all of this funny business.
09-17-2004, 01:59 PM
#32
Originally posted by Brandon Rohde
...World's is where most racers dont have to pay for anything, so that is where I think we should keep the open tire choice rule...
...World's is where most racers dont have to pay for anything, so that is where I think we should keep the open tire choice rule...
09-17-2004, 10:16 PM
#34
Tech Master
Keep in mind without spec tires, some of the factory drivers would show up to the race with prototype tires that NO ONE else can get. Is that fare if I can't compete because he has some exotic rubber that I, an average racer, could not get? We sell tons of Take Off tires at the Hobbytown I work at since they are cheap, premounted, and everyone knows which are best to use. We accually are not going to stock any other types of sedan tires. Most guys here get 6-8 runs out of a set.
09-17-2004, 10:36 PM
#35
Hi friends. Greetings from Malta.
I haven't read all this post so pardon me if I am repeating something that has already been said.
We have had similar experiences to those mentioned by Adrian. It's not so bad if you are near home, but if you have to travel by air to get to a race meeting and have to take a daft number of tyres, inserts and wheels with you it becomes very inconvenient.
At our home track we know exactly what works for us and what doesn't, so there's no problem. We take a few sets of CS22s already mounted on wheels, and with the correct inserts - and they work.
The last time we travelled, I asked around beforehand and got abouty 10 different answers, so we ended up taking a big bag full of tyres, inserts and wheels alone. That's apart from all the other bits - 3 complete cars, 6 bodyshells, 2 transmitters, 4 chargers, 2 power supplies, a box load of cells and motors, discharge trays, spares, tools, lathe, set up equipment - you mention it - it was on the plane with us.
Guess what? When we got to the circuit we found that the quick guys were using a different tyre and a different insert again.
And guess what? We ended up buying a load more tyres and inserts.
I am a strong advocate of control tyre units, but only complete units, ready mounted. At the Worlds in 98 we had a control tyre but not a control insert, so the situation was the same again, except that this time, with a limited number of tyres, the right guessing was even more important. And if you got it wrong you were screwed for the rest of the meeting.
Definately premounted control tyre units if we want the racing to be cheaper and closer.
But unfortunately not everybody wants that!
I haven't read all this post so pardon me if I am repeating something that has already been said.
We have had similar experiences to those mentioned by Adrian. It's not so bad if you are near home, but if you have to travel by air to get to a race meeting and have to take a daft number of tyres, inserts and wheels with you it becomes very inconvenient.
At our home track we know exactly what works for us and what doesn't, so there's no problem. We take a few sets of CS22s already mounted on wheels, and with the correct inserts - and they work.
The last time we travelled, I asked around beforehand and got abouty 10 different answers, so we ended up taking a big bag full of tyres, inserts and wheels alone. That's apart from all the other bits - 3 complete cars, 6 bodyshells, 2 transmitters, 4 chargers, 2 power supplies, a box load of cells and motors, discharge trays, spares, tools, lathe, set up equipment - you mention it - it was on the plane with us.
Guess what? When we got to the circuit we found that the quick guys were using a different tyre and a different insert again.
And guess what? We ended up buying a load more tyres and inserts.
I am a strong advocate of control tyre units, but only complete units, ready mounted. At the Worlds in 98 we had a control tyre but not a control insert, so the situation was the same again, except that this time, with a limited number of tyres, the right guessing was even more important. And if you got it wrong you were screwed for the rest of the meeting.
Definately premounted control tyre units if we want the racing to be cheaper and closer.
But unfortunately not everybody wants that!
09-18-2004, 11:49 AM
#36
The problem is that there is some fantasy that the "normal" guy is going to be able to compete with the Factory guys at any level. I've seen lots of races with control tires and have NEVER seen a local guy near the C-main never mind the A. SPEC is good for a spec class it is counter productive at a national level. This is were the testing and RD should be done for tire development (which has stopped here in the US). If SPEC tires were the right direction why isn't it in place for all forms of RC racing? It's partly lazyness on teams for not wanting to test and develope tires. Sure it's expensive, all racing is, and I want tires that last longer, but until we get rid of this notion that spec tires help tire developement I'm stuck with tires that don't last more than a weekend at most and usually 2 runs.
The Factory drivers will have lots of stuff that "regular" racers can't have. So why cry just about tires?
The solution is to have a Factory Mod class. And seperate the lower "regular" racers. It's not doubling the classes it's adding one.
I'm sorry to let most of you know, but you won't beat a guy that races for a living with or without spec tires. Why not races SPEC cars entirely? Since there's an advatage somewhere, right? As a racer I want to know what will allow me to beat the next guy. And if that advantage trickles down from super secret tires that allowed a team to destroy the competition that's what I want. In reality I don't care who wins I care WHAT wins.
The Factory drivers will have lots of stuff that "regular" racers can't have. So why cry just about tires?
The solution is to have a Factory Mod class. And seperate the lower "regular" racers. It's not doubling the classes it's adding one.
I'm sorry to let most of you know, but you won't beat a guy that races for a living with or without spec tires. Why not races SPEC cars entirely? Since there's an advatage somewhere, right? As a racer I want to know what will allow me to beat the next guy. And if that advantage trickles down from super secret tires that allowed a team to destroy the competition that's what I want. In reality I don't care who wins I care WHAT wins.
09-18-2004, 12:11 PM
#37
You should look at this year's Nats results on 19T and Stock. Look for the names, Weylin Rose, Sean Maybell, Sam Forbes and Peter Robinson, all qualified for A and/or B Mains, all are locals from Pacific NW.
I'm going to be honest, at the time some of these guys have some sort of backing, but definitely not full factory and Sam has zero backing, he's truly a privateer.
Dom
I'm going to be honest, at the time some of these guys have some sort of backing, but definitely not full factory and Sam has zero backing, he's truly a privateer.
Dom
09-18-2004, 12:21 PM
#38
I'll be honest again. I'm talking modified "open". I know 19T is a great class, but it's not the same. SPEC tires are great for 19T since that's the "regular" guy class. I frown upon Factory Drivers running 19T.
09-18-2004, 12:25 PM
#39
I went to the Portland nats not with visions of beating the factory guys...but to enjoy a national event and race toy cars for a week. I do not think us "C" Main types are at those events with any wild thoughts of running with the Pros...but I did have as much fun as them I bet! And in the longrun that is what it is all about. $3000 total tire bill would not be something a normal person could do or enjoy.... My tire bill was much lower because of the handout tire rule. I did not have to carry $$$$ in tires to the nats hoping that they worked. We are also very fortunate in our local racing only allows the Take Off Premounts as well. We have seen our participation on the local level increase...the hobby shop only stocks those tires...easier on them not getting stuck with last weeks "tire of the week". They are more supportive of the racing becaue they know the stock will move. RC racing is a hobby for 90% of us. Control tires increase the enjoyment level of the hobby because they take the tire tuning game more out of the equation...They will be the only tires that we run and it has worked real well for us.
Jeff
Jeff
09-18-2004, 04:10 PM
#40
"One last point and then I'll be quiet- If ROAR is big on control tire, how come at the carpet races they don't hand out a specific foam compound, it's the same principal. (Do I want to run Jaco, or TRC, or BSR, and THEN what compound and what diameter). There's almost as much in foam preperation as there is in rubber decisions. They could handout a specific compound tire to each class, and tell you how many you get (run whatever diameter you want, but this is all you get until mains). This eliminates cost more than the rubber deal, because you don't see the factory with half a dozen sets of tires in each pit, all different diamters to play with and so forth. They want to TRY and use cost effectiveness on asphalt but not carpet, what's the difference."
I have to strongly disagree with this. Despite the differences in carpet, what you run at your home track will probably work at the race. Foam compounds (as far as what are available to the public) are very close. Not to mention that even if some company has a new compound or construction, it usually doesn't put everyone else out to lunch.
Basically, if you don't know what works before you're at a carpet/foam race, then you are lost already. There is a way to handle your tires for a big race, and it really doesn't matter what brand or compound. There is no need to handout foams.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Despite the differences in carpet, what you run at your home track will probably work at the race. Foam compounds (as far as what are available to the public) are very close. Not to mention that even if some company has a new compound or construction, it usually doesn't put everyone else out to lunch.
Basically, if you don't know what works before you're at a carpet/foam race, then you are lost already. There is a way to handle your tires for a big race, and it really doesn't matter what brand or compound. There is no need to handout foams.
09-18-2004, 07:22 PM
#41
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
Originally posted by DerekB
I'll be honest again. I'm talking modified "open". I know 19T is a great class, but it's not the same. SPEC tires are great for 19T since that's the "regular" guy class. I frown upon Factory Drivers running 19T.
I'll be honest again. I'm talking modified "open". I know 19T is a great class, but it's not the same. SPEC tires are great for 19T since that's the "regular" guy class. I frown upon Factory Drivers running 19T.
09-18-2004, 07:49 PM
#43
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
Norcca Doesn't, they have a sportsman Stock and Mod class along with a sperate Factory Mod Class at their nats. Does anyone here remember Norcca's hey day, love him or hate him JR ran a good nationals race.
09-18-2004, 08:05 PM
#44
Ok, I'm not understanding one thing here.
In order to promote better competition, we should have a different class structure, factory vs. non-factory, which I don't think ROAR will be doing that kind of re-structuring anytime soon.
So with that said and foreseeing no factory and privateer Nats anytime soon, and we'll have only 1 Nats. Now we want non-spec'ed tires so there will be prototype or next-to-impossible-to-get tires in the competition so the factory drivers will have an advantage like Arian had mentioned earlier. And the average joe once again going back to having a disadvantage.
And a potential contraversy is what determines who is privateer, who is factory? 100 backing? Does 40/30/20 off consider as factory? It can get out of hand.
Then we have to think about since Nats is an IFMAR qualifier, so we split the amt of people qualify for the Worlds between the 2 "Nats"?
Dom
In order to promote better competition, we should have a different class structure, factory vs. non-factory, which I don't think ROAR will be doing that kind of re-structuring anytime soon.
So with that said and foreseeing no factory and privateer Nats anytime soon, and we'll have only 1 Nats. Now we want non-spec'ed tires so there will be prototype or next-to-impossible-to-get tires in the competition so the factory drivers will have an advantage like Arian had mentioned earlier. And the average joe once again going back to having a disadvantage.
And a potential contraversy is what determines who is privateer, who is factory? 100 backing? Does 40/30/20 off consider as factory? It can get out of hand.
Then we have to think about since Nats is an IFMAR qualifier, so we split the amt of people qualify for the Worlds between the 2 "Nats"?
Dom
09-18-2004, 08:23 PM
#45
The nationals are just that, the nationals. You're racing for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP! That means if you win you're the BEST. Are we going to have a Factory national champ, Sportsman National Champ, Novice National Champ? I think not. You go to nationals to have a chance to race WITH the best in the nation.