R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Rookie Zone

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-19-2008, 08:34 PM   #1
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7
Default Single Turn VS Double Turn

Is there any speed advantage with a single turn motor compared to a double turn motor, or vice versa? What is the difference performance wise?
purdyd82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 07:11 PM   #2
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CORONA , CALIF.
Posts: 3,976
Default

.. a single turn has more torq . and a quicker throttle response .. a double has a smoother throttle response , both run fast ..as far as speed . really depends on track conditions smooth bumpy ,tight or tech ., and tracksion conditions . and most importantly . the driver being able to handle the power and having the right set up in the car or truck or buggy ...
__________________
Mark Barden .
Note to self : Victory !! Is Awarded with Preparation ,
mb racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2008, 02:04 AM   #3
Tech Regular
 
deore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cavite
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 20 (95%+)
Default hi

hi,, double turn motors has higher torque,, it can handle the stress from high speed gears... unlike single turns, they can reach as high RPM as double turns but they have lots of power loss in high speed gears...

Last edited by deore; 02-02-2008 at 07:00 AM.
deore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 04:42 PM   #4
Tech Elite
 
edseb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smoggy, California
Posts: 2,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deore View Post
hi,, i agree with mb racer,, double turn motors has higher torque,, it can handle the stress from high speed gears... unlike single turns, they can reach as high RPM as double turns but they have lots of power loss in high speed gears...
No, double winds (not turns to be technical) have less torque that's why they feel smoother. Read MB's post again, he has it correct. What is a high speed gear? Do you mean higher geared on the teeth on the pinion, or final FDR? A higher FDR is actually lower geared on the pinion. So the same gearing on both versions of winds will generate a smoother feel in the double wind since it takes away some torque but still maintains the same length of wire wrapped around the armature (turns). Double wind arms are really only used in offroad where you want to take away some of the punch on the bottom end of the throttle to make a mod motor easier to drive.
__________________
XRC Magazine
Carl Hyndman
edseb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 09:32 PM   #5
Tech Regular
 
deore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cavite
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 20 (95%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edseb View Post
No, double winds (not turns to be technical) have less torque that's why they feel smoother. Read MB's post again, he has it correct. What is a high speed gear? Do you mean higher geared on the teeth on the pinion, or final FDR? A higher FDR is actually lower geared on the pinion. So the same gearing on both versions of winds will generate a smoother feel in the double wind since it takes away some torque but still maintains the same length of wire wrapped around the armature (turns). Double wind arms are really only used in offroad where you want to take away some of the punch on the bottom end of the throttle to make a mod motor easier to drive.
oh,, im sorry,, i am not that perfect, i mean winds not turns... i do not agree... double winds have much torque compare to single wind...

Last edited by deore; 02-02-2008 at 06:59 AM.
deore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 09:44 PM   #6
Tech Regular
 
deore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cavite
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 20 (95%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edseb View Post
No, double winds (not turns to be technical) have less torque that's why they feel smoother. Read MB's post again, he has it correct. What is a high speed gear? Do you mean higher geared on the teeth on the pinion, or final FDR? A higher FDR is actually lower geared on the pinion. So the same gearing on both versions of winds will generate a smoother feel in the double wind since it takes away some torque but still maintains the same length of wire wrapped around the armature (turns). Double wind arms are really only used in offroad where you want to take away some of the punch on the bottom end of the throttle to make a mod motor easier to drive.
you made it longer,, its understood that when you say high speed gearing, the pinion gear is bigger and the counter gear becomes smaller,, and if low speed gearing, the pinion becomes smaller and the counter gear is bigger... high speed takes the motor run in a few RPM to reach a certain speed,, and low speed takes the motor run in much RPM to reach a certain speed... thats what i mean... and high speed gears takes time to reach a certain speed while low speed gearing takes few time to reach a certain speed.. got it???

Last edited by deore; 02-02-2008 at 06:56 AM.
deore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 09:59 PM   #7
Tech Regular
 
deore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cavite
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 20 (95%+)
Default

ok let us analyze.... Generally,, in single wind, the magnetic force coming from the armature is not the same as double wind... am i right??? the question is... which armature has higher magnetic force??? single wind or double winds???

you are free to answer....
deore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 07:39 PM   #8
Tech Elite
 
edseb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smoggy, California
Posts: 2,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deore View Post
ok let us analyze.... Generally,, in single wind, the magnetic force coming from the armature is not the same as double wind... am i right??? the question is... which armature has higher magnetic force??? single wind or double winds???

you are free to answer....
No, single winds use bigger gauge wire (15 1/2, etc.), where double, triple, quads, quints, etc., are forced to use thinner wire since there is more than one strand going around the poles and they can not fit the bigger gauge stuff on. The bigger wire draws a stronger current and is more efficient. The length or number of turns as it gets shorter draws more current and creates more torque. As with older motors like Trinity D5, they even experimented with rectangle wire to increase torque and try to fill the space up better to increase the amount of copper. But, there is a limit, as the gauges gets to around 15, you cannot still make an arm fit the wire for even a 7t. After that you start to run in to all sorts of inefficiencies as you get in to 6t and below, that's why many pros only go down to about a 7t with only some trying thinner gauge 6t. Derek Furatani considered by many to wrap the best handwound arms for the pros, has tried many things to fit a bigger gauge wire, but it hasn't happened. You would be right if a double had the same size wire, but because of physical dimensions its not. Some tricks like hemi winding are ways to shorten the wire (illegal a while back) and still keep the same number of turns. So doubles are kind of like splitting a wire with the same amount turns, but at the expense of torque which in certain things like offroad is a good thing.
__________________
XRC Magazine
Carl Hyndman
edseb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2008, 07:57 PM   #9
Tech Elite
 
edseb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smoggy, California
Posts: 2,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deore View Post
you made it longer,, its understood that when you say high speed gearing, the pinion gear is bigger and the counter gear becomes smaller,, and if low speed gearing, the pinion becomes smaller and the counter gear is bigger... high speed takes the motor run in a few RPM to reach a certain speed,, and low speed takes the motor run in much RPM to reach a certain speed... thats what i mean... and high speed gears takes time to reach a certain speed while low speed gearing takes few time to reach a certain speed.. got it???
Sorry, I'm not trying to throw you under a bus, just trying to clarify what you mean. High speed gearing is a little vague. I'll use a Trinity Monster vs a Trinity P2K as an example. The Monster is a rpm based motor, so to properly gear it you usually would have to use around a 7.2-7.5 fdr, which is a smaller pinion than you would for a P2k geared around 6.5 fdr. So to get the monster to top speed quicker you actually gear lower- so it could be read, "high speed gearing" as being vague. I kind of understood what you meant originally, but wanted to clarify since most people don't usually refer to gearing in that way unless its in reference to a set/spec motor, or in situations where gearing isn't standard or within an unusual application like in some of Tamiya's special kits. Anyways, keep the discussion going.
__________________
XRC Magazine
Carl Hyndman
edseb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 08:35 PM   #10
Tech Initiate
 
MIke Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hueytown, Alabama
Posts: 32
Default Motor Hi jenks

Motors: Singles, Doubles, Tripples, Quads

Lets say for instance the single is wound with copper, one strand of 12 gauge wire, the double is wound with two strands of 24 gauge wire, the tripple is wound with three strands of 36 guage wire and the Quad is wound with four strands of 48 guage wire. As long as the circular mills of ther wire adds up all things should be the same!

Power supply voltage is 6VDC. The torque will be EQUALl at the motor rated rpm and at the top of the motor scale. However, how they arrive there is a different thing or 4 different things.

The single will arrive at rated RPM & torque faster than any one of them due to it's torque curve which is Linear or on a 45 degree accel! That's the one point missed here TORQUE CURVE! Linear, S curve, S2, S3, S4!

The amount of work performed within a given RPM range with in a specific DC Voltage. There can be variants such as Bearings, Bushings, brushes, springs comm drops and all sorts of good & bad things.

But with all things being equal these motors will arrive at a rated torque at different times per their torque chart & RPM charts.

There inlies the beauty of the differences. A motor for every track? Tight tracks use the single, tight tracks with short to midium length starights use a single or Double. Open track with long sweeping turns and medium to long straights use the Double or tripple. If your car has a killer set up on a Long racing line track with low compression turns put in the Quad! It will scare the heck out of you and don't forget to set up for the next turn.

Gearing is a whole nother ballgame which we will review later. There will be a test next week. It's called the local racing scene. Just Remember this, handling is better than HP unless the guy behindf you has both then you are screwed!

I hope I can find some of my old Dyno reports that I used to compare my oval motors way back when, that was back when Trinity produced the Godzilla motor line. do any of you remember it?

Good Night
__________________
From Hueytown, Alabama The home of
some of the best NASCAR racers ever!
Bobby, Donnie, Davey, Clifford Allison
Red Farmer & Neil Bonnett
MIke Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 07:51 AM   #11
Tech Initiate
 
MIke Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hueytown, Alabama
Posts: 32
Default Single over double turn

The single turn will get you there quicker.
__________________
From Hueytown, Alabama The home of
some of the best NASCAR racers ever!
Bobby, Donnie, Davey, Clifford Allison
Red Farmer & Neil Bonnett
MIke Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 08:51 AM   #12
Tech Elite
 
edseb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smoggy, California
Posts: 2,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIke Clark View Post
Motors: Singles, Doubles, Tripples, Quads

Lets say for instance the single is wound with copper, one strand of 12 gauge wire, the double is wound with two strands of 24 gauge wire, the tripple is wound with three strands of 36 guage wire and the Quad is wound with four strands of 48 guage wire. As long as the circular mills of ther wire adds up all things should be the same!

Power supply voltage is 6VDC. The torque will be EQUALl at the motor rated rpm and at the top of the motor scale. However, how they arrive there is a different thing or 4 different things.

The single will arrive at rated RPM & torque faster than any one of them due to it's torque curve which is Linear or on a 45 degree accel! That's the one point missed here TORQUE CURVE! Linear, S curve, S2, S3, S4!

The amount of work performed within a given RPM range with in a specific DC Voltage. There can be variants such as Bearings, Bushings, brushes, springs comm drops and all sorts of good & bad things.

But with all things being equal these motors will arrive at a rated torque at different times per their torque chart & RPM charts.

There inlies the beauty of the differences. A motor for every track? Tight tracks use the single, tight tracks with short to midium length starights use a single or Double. Open track with long sweeping turns and medium to long straights use the Double or tripple. If your car has a killer set up on a Long racing line track with low compression turns put in the Quad! It will scare the heck out of you and don't forget to set up for the next turn.

Gearing is a whole nother ballgame which we will review later. There will be a test next week. It's called the local racing scene. Just Remember this, handling is better than HP unless the guy behindf you has both then you are screwed!

I hope I can find some of my old Dyno reports that I used to compare my oval motors way back when, that was back when Trinity produced the Godzilla motor line. do any of you remember it?

Good Night
That was the point I was trying to make. As I said if everything else were equal then it would work out, but obviously there is not enough room to fit a set of wires of equal value. Even if there was room, there isn't motors out there with exact same specs in different winds, cause what would be the point. I think you just explained it much better, but bottom line in our racing and in rc, for practical and realistic purposes a single is always going to have more torque. As far as linear acceleration, it's not really a line, but a power curve. The acceleration should ramp up strong and hit hard early and the curve should be very steep in the beginning, then slowly start to level off. On a dyno it should be like a big arc with the steep part at the beginning- here is where a throttle exponential on a radio can help. So acceleration is definately not a straight linear line, and that's where tuning and other characteristics come in to play. Finally, maybe you can help with this, since I'm not positive here. As we know a thicker gauge wire is more efficient and has less resistance, so does it hold up that 2 wires with half the gauge of that thicker wire remain equal in efficiency and will the acceleration curve be exact? My intuition would say no, but I have no proof or results for that.
__________________
XRC Magazine
Carl Hyndman
edseb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 06:39 PM   #13
Tech Initiate
 
MIke Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hueytown, Alabama
Posts: 32
Default Motor experiments

That is what I miss most of all about big car electric racing, Experiments with motors, wire, winds, brushes, springs et al, it was for the most part fun. Engineering a motor and just letting the big dog eat at the local track seeing if it will cut the mustard.

Now since my return to electrics 1/18 scale is all I want! AA batterys & slot car motors. Getting these motors to turn up can be a task.
__________________
From Hueytown, Alabama The home of
some of the best NASCAR racers ever!
Bobby, Donnie, Davey, Clifford Allison
Red Farmer & Neil Bonnett
MIke Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 07:34 PM   #14
Tech Initiate
 
MIke Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hueytown, Alabama
Posts: 32
Default

Finally, maybe you can help with this, since I'm not positive here. As we know a thicker gauge wire is more efficient and has less resistance, so does it hold up that 2 wires with half the gauge of that thicker wire remain equal in efficiency and will the acceleration curve be exact? My intuition would say no, but I have no proof or results for that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELI the ICE man

Well let me start of by saying DC motors are not efficent at all. They are movers & shakers not like their A/C brothers. To say a DC motor is efficent is incorrect. Now you can make them efficent but that is not a standard feature from the factory.


1 conductor, Less resistance = less of a voltage drop through the motor. The fastest way to top RPM & the fastest starting torque

2 conductors, more resistance + histersis heating = more voltage drop through the motor. Histersis is the heating between two parallel conductors in the same circuit, that are not a perfect match.

Therefore the double will take more time to overcome the Vdrop in the Armature allowing for a slower build up to top RPM which will also act to retard the torque curve.

I am sorry but your instution is correct!
__________________
From Hueytown, Alabama The home of
some of the best NASCAR racers ever!
Bobby, Donnie, Davey, Clifford Allison
Red Farmer & Neil Bonnett
MIke Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 08:45 AM   #15
Tech Rookie
 
Chadworkz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Gadsden, Alabama
Posts: 17
Send a message via AIM to Chadworkz
Default

I replied here last night, did anyone see it? It seems to have just dissapeared! It was a fairly long, very informative, correct differences/uses between Single, Double, Triple & Quad Wind Motors as well as how the number of Turns affects the number of Winds & vice/versa.
__________________
-Chad
-R/C Extremes, Raceworkz, Rockworkz, RBCRCRC
-UE, Dace, Tekin, Pro-Line, Novak, Hitec, Avid, Tony's Screws, Spektrum, PROTOform, Intellect, Traxxas, RC Best
Chadworkz is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
looking for 10 turn single motors DragR87 Colorado Racing 7 08-06-2008 01:05 PM
Single turn and double turn motors Wreckless_Daz Electric On-Road 5 08-21-2007 12:35 PM
FS: 645mg, AE .21 piston, trinity D6 9 turn double xaznriceracerx R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 4 04-25-2006 06:58 PM
Caliber Super Spec 19 turn double $10 jc510 R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 1 07-07-2005 08:08 AM
fs: Orion Revolution 9 Turn Single XCrash R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 2 03-14-2005 11:35 AM


All times are GMT -8. It is currently 06:58 PM.



SEO by vBSEO 3.5.0