Performance Difference? Futaba/Airtronics/Spektrum/KoPropo Radios
#17
Tech Adept
the dx4r pro, ex1, 4px, m12 are so quick these days that i would dare anyone to actually notice a response time difference. what you are paying for is a few added features and comforted and feel with the likes of the 4px and ex1. they are super nice to hold in the hand, but then so is the dx4r pro.
at the high end radio market is all about how YOU feel when holding the radio and thinking of a 60minute main when you want to have full control of the handset.
#19
Tech Regular
Neither Graupner HoTT system which is another variation of FHSS. It is great with inbuilt feedback from the receiver including log.
I have been using a graupner x-8n for a month and I am very satisfied with it. For me personally this is the best system taking into account its cost.
I have been using a graupner x-8n for a month and I am very satisfied with it. For me personally this is the best system taking into account its cost.
#21
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (4)
I too ran a Spektrum but after getting glitched occasionaly, I finally gave it up. Yes I did use the glitch busters and a digital servo. The last straw was I was running second and closing in on the leader in my main when I came to a turn and my car went straight and completely off the track, then it glitched one more time during the same race.
I personnaly went with Airtronics MT4 because I like the feel (personnal feel), also I have never had an Airtronics ever fail me over the years (yes I have had Futaba, Spektrum, others). The MT4 does not have an external antenna, and the receiver antenna is short and I can lay it flat by the receiver. No more glitch and perfect control.
Also the Airtronics MT4 comes with a RPM & temp sensor which is awesome for gas. Also the MT4 has telemetry which can control your ESC from the radio.
Don't get me wrong the Futaba is a great radio and the high end Spectrum are also great. That is key DO NOT buy low end radios. You may not need all the bells and whistles but it is the fact that the radio is of better quality and finer tolerences for better and acurate control. The radio and reciever are the MOST important piece of equipment and should never be a consideration when trying to cut cost.
Also the MT4 has every adjustment for feel you can imagine, it can be set for left or right hand, the trigger can be set in various positions, tension in the steering and trigger can be adjusted to feel, plus two grips are included.
Then amount of electronic adjustments are infinite.
These are the reasons I chose Airtonics over the others. But I do not think one is a better "performer" than the other (if it is high end quality), but it should come down to feel, weight, balance, feel of the grip and the steering in your hand.
I personnaly went with Airtronics MT4 because I like the feel (personnal feel), also I have never had an Airtronics ever fail me over the years (yes I have had Futaba, Spektrum, others). The MT4 does not have an external antenna, and the receiver antenna is short and I can lay it flat by the receiver. No more glitch and perfect control.
Also the Airtronics MT4 comes with a RPM & temp sensor which is awesome for gas. Also the MT4 has telemetry which can control your ESC from the radio.
Don't get me wrong the Futaba is a great radio and the high end Spectrum are also great. That is key DO NOT buy low end radios. You may not need all the bells and whistles but it is the fact that the radio is of better quality and finer tolerences for better and acurate control. The radio and reciever are the MOST important piece of equipment and should never be a consideration when trying to cut cost.
Also the MT4 has every adjustment for feel you can imagine, it can be set for left or right hand, the trigger can be set in various positions, tension in the steering and trigger can be adjusted to feel, plus two grips are included.
Then amount of electronic adjustments are infinite.
These are the reasons I chose Airtonics over the others. But I do not think one is a better "performer" than the other (if it is high end quality), but it should come down to feel, weight, balance, feel of the grip and the steering in your hand.
#23
#24
I too ran a Spektrum but after getting glitched occasionaly, I finally gave it up. Yes I did use the glitch busters and a digital servo. The last straw was I was running second and closing in on the leader in my main when I came to a turn and my car went straight and completely off the track, then it glitched one more time during the same race.
I personnaly went with Airtronics MT4 because I like the feel (personnal feel), also I have never had an Airtronics ever fail me over the years (yes I have had Futaba, Spektrum, others). The MT4 does not have an external antenna, and the receiver antenna is short and I can lay it flat by the receiver. No more glitch and perfect control.
Also the Airtronics MT4 comes with a RPM & temp sensor which is awesome for gas. Also the MT4 has telemetry which can control your ESC from the radio.
Don't get me wrong the Futaba is a great radio and the high end Spectrum are also great. That is key DO NOT buy low end radios. You may not need all the bells and whistles but it is the fact that the radio is of better quality and finer tolerences for better and acurate control. The radio and reciever are the MOST important piece of equipment and should never be a consideration when trying to cut cost.
Also the MT4 has every adjustment for feel you can imagine, it can be set for left or right hand, the trigger can be set in various positions, tension in the steering and trigger can be adjusted to feel, plus two grips are included.
Then amount of electronic adjustments are infinite.
These are the reasons I chose Airtonics over the others. But I do not think one is a better "performer" than the other (if it is high end quality), but it should come down to feel, weight, balance, feel of the grip and the steering in your hand.
I personnaly went with Airtronics MT4 because I like the feel (personnal feel), also I have never had an Airtronics ever fail me over the years (yes I have had Futaba, Spektrum, others). The MT4 does not have an external antenna, and the receiver antenna is short and I can lay it flat by the receiver. No more glitch and perfect control.
Also the Airtronics MT4 comes with a RPM & temp sensor which is awesome for gas. Also the MT4 has telemetry which can control your ESC from the radio.
Don't get me wrong the Futaba is a great radio and the high end Spectrum are also great. That is key DO NOT buy low end radios. You may not need all the bells and whistles but it is the fact that the radio is of better quality and finer tolerences for better and acurate control. The radio and reciever are the MOST important piece of equipment and should never be a consideration when trying to cut cost.
Also the MT4 has every adjustment for feel you can imagine, it can be set for left or right hand, the trigger can be set in various positions, tension in the steering and trigger can be adjusted to feel, plus two grips are included.
Then amount of electronic adjustments are infinite.
These are the reasons I chose Airtonics over the others. But I do not think one is a better "performer" than the other (if it is high end quality), but it should come down to feel, weight, balance, feel of the grip and the steering in your hand.
Thanks for the input. I recently got to hold a Futaba 4PX in my hand and I have to say it felt better than my DX4R Pro.... I never really thought there would be that much difference in the actual feel in your hand from one radio to another. I'm going to do more research...
#25
Tech Apprentice
This is largely lifted from an R/C Airplane site that I frequent, so I can't take credit but here's what the main differences are among 2.4ghz radios. I know quite a bit about radio spectrum, having worked in the early "wi-fi" industry before we called it that :-)
For more details go to rcmodelreviews.com or flyinggiants.com. They bust out the oscilliscopes and trap packets and everything. It's seriously in depth.
DSSS - Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum
This is the oldest 2.4ghz tech. This is what Spektrum (original) DSM uses (and all those cheapo orange receivers from HobbyKing). When you turn the radio on it selects two channels from among the 40 available in the 2.4ghz band. If interference is detected on the first channel, it will switch to the second. If interference is detected on the second, it switches back to the first. Channel selection is totally random. Note: "DSM2" from Spektrum is still completely DSSS based. The difference is that it tests the 2 channels and confirms they are clear before selecting them (Plain DSM will just pick 2 random channels even if they have existing interference). "DSM2" also broadcasts a GUID, so even if two radios happen to be on the same channel, they will only listen to the commands with the ID they are associated to. Bandwidth decreases in this situation, and response time slows, but at least it doesn't result in a "glitch".
Pros: Automatic Frequency Selection (no more crystals, yay!). Basic interference avoidance
Cons: Under the very best scenario, you are limited to 20 simultaneous radios on at once (both at the drivers stand and pits). That would allow one clear channel, and one backup channel for every radio. In practice this would never happen. There's no way all 40 channels will be interference free. Also, DSSS picks channels at random. Your radio and my radio might randomly pick the same channels to use. (Which DSM2 tries to mitigate). You will probably see momentary glitching and problems at large events.
Slow frame rate. FM PCM radios are often faster than first gen DSM.
FHSS - Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum
Powering up the radio, the system selects three channels. Every 'x' number of milliseconds, it will switch channels to the next one in a continuous rotation. This is an interference avoidance scheme. Rather than waiting to be hit with glitching, it keeps rotating to always keep you in the clear. With many radios continually cycling through 3 random channels (out of 40) the likely hood of interference goes down, and if it happens both radios will cycle off pretty soon anyway. Many more permuations to open channels, i.e. I go 1-4-14, you go 7-2-26, he goes 39-32-1. We'll probably never hit each other. Practical limit is around 27-30 radios on at once.
Pros: Better interference avoidance. Better frame rate
Cons: More expensive to implement. Timing must be precise.
S-FHSS - "Super" Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum
See FHSS above. Faster framerate. Also has the benefit of switching out channels. If it notices interference everytime it cycle onto one of the 3 channels it selected, it will drop that channel and select an alternate, so you're always cycling through clear channels.
Same Pros and Cons as FHSS
FASST - Futaba Advanced Spread Sprectrum Technology
Basically takes the best parts of all of the above, and wraps them in the fastest frame rates out there. It's basically S-FHSS, with the GUID idea from DSM2. Frame rates are much, much faster than anything out there. Does that response time actually matter? Can you feel 2ms vs 4ms vs 12ms? Futaba has patented this technology. So others may share the tech above, but only Futaba will have FASST.
Pros: Highest practical radio count out there. 36 FASST radios can be fired up the same time without interfering with one another or causing performance degradation. This is a practical limit and can be achieved real world (The 20 from Spektrum is theoretical).
Most interference resistant tech (probably overkill for club racing though where maybe 8 radios are on at a time)
Fastest Response Times (again though, can you notice it?)
Spektrum DSM-X
Although FASST is patent encumbered, the general ideas of combining the known tech listed above are ok. It's all in the implementation. Spektrum developed DSM-X to combat FASST using many of the same principals. They use what they call "Wideband" technology. Basically, instead of dividing the spectrum up into 40 channels, they divide it into 13 or so (exact details are hard to come by) but they say (roughly 1/3). Because each channel covers a wider spectrum, interference likely won't cover the whole band they are using, and even if interference is present the digital message will still get through, because the channel is so wide. Won't this limit the number of radios? Well, since the radio and receiver use the GUID feature and only listen for command assigned to them, this isn't a problem. And because of all the extra bandwidth with the bonded channels, performance doesn't really take a hit either.
Pros: Finally brings Spektrum into some modern technology. DSM and DSM2 are seriously dated and outdated by todays standards. Backwards compatible to an extent. Can still interoperate with their older stuff, you just lose all the new benefits.
Cons: In practice, radios have been observed to be "loud" and occasionally cause interference to other radios as they overlap much of the spectrum. Just because their radios can parse out commands by GUID and deal with it, doesn't means your brand does.
Expensive
Tends to only be used in R/C aircraft where multiple radios on are not likely. The interference to overcome is incidental or environmental - not other transmitters. This makes taking up a lot of bandwidth generally ok, as there are fewer planes in the sky at the same time compared to cars at a track.
Extremely quick response times (again it's reaching the point where you might not tell the difference)
For more details go to rcmodelreviews.com or flyinggiants.com. They bust out the oscilliscopes and trap packets and everything. It's seriously in depth.
DSSS - Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum
This is the oldest 2.4ghz tech. This is what Spektrum (original) DSM uses (and all those cheapo orange receivers from HobbyKing). When you turn the radio on it selects two channels from among the 40 available in the 2.4ghz band. If interference is detected on the first channel, it will switch to the second. If interference is detected on the second, it switches back to the first. Channel selection is totally random. Note: "DSM2" from Spektrum is still completely DSSS based. The difference is that it tests the 2 channels and confirms they are clear before selecting them (Plain DSM will just pick 2 random channels even if they have existing interference). "DSM2" also broadcasts a GUID, so even if two radios happen to be on the same channel, they will only listen to the commands with the ID they are associated to. Bandwidth decreases in this situation, and response time slows, but at least it doesn't result in a "glitch".
Pros: Automatic Frequency Selection (no more crystals, yay!). Basic interference avoidance
Cons: Under the very best scenario, you are limited to 20 simultaneous radios on at once (both at the drivers stand and pits). That would allow one clear channel, and one backup channel for every radio. In practice this would never happen. There's no way all 40 channels will be interference free. Also, DSSS picks channels at random. Your radio and my radio might randomly pick the same channels to use. (Which DSM2 tries to mitigate). You will probably see momentary glitching and problems at large events.
Slow frame rate. FM PCM radios are often faster than first gen DSM.
FHSS - Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum
Powering up the radio, the system selects three channels. Every 'x' number of milliseconds, it will switch channels to the next one in a continuous rotation. This is an interference avoidance scheme. Rather than waiting to be hit with glitching, it keeps rotating to always keep you in the clear. With many radios continually cycling through 3 random channels (out of 40) the likely hood of interference goes down, and if it happens both radios will cycle off pretty soon anyway. Many more permuations to open channels, i.e. I go 1-4-14, you go 7-2-26, he goes 39-32-1. We'll probably never hit each other. Practical limit is around 27-30 radios on at once.
Pros: Better interference avoidance. Better frame rate
Cons: More expensive to implement. Timing must be precise.
S-FHSS - "Super" Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum
See FHSS above. Faster framerate. Also has the benefit of switching out channels. If it notices interference everytime it cycle onto one of the 3 channels it selected, it will drop that channel and select an alternate, so you're always cycling through clear channels.
Same Pros and Cons as FHSS
FASST - Futaba Advanced Spread Sprectrum Technology
Basically takes the best parts of all of the above, and wraps them in the fastest frame rates out there. It's basically S-FHSS, with the GUID idea from DSM2. Frame rates are much, much faster than anything out there. Does that response time actually matter? Can you feel 2ms vs 4ms vs 12ms? Futaba has patented this technology. So others may share the tech above, but only Futaba will have FASST.
Pros: Highest practical radio count out there. 36 FASST radios can be fired up the same time without interfering with one another or causing performance degradation. This is a practical limit and can be achieved real world (The 20 from Spektrum is theoretical).
Most interference resistant tech (probably overkill for club racing though where maybe 8 radios are on at a time)
Fastest Response Times (again though, can you notice it?)
Spektrum DSM-X
Although FASST is patent encumbered, the general ideas of combining the known tech listed above are ok. It's all in the implementation. Spektrum developed DSM-X to combat FASST using many of the same principals. They use what they call "Wideband" technology. Basically, instead of dividing the spectrum up into 40 channels, they divide it into 13 or so (exact details are hard to come by) but they say (roughly 1/3). Because each channel covers a wider spectrum, interference likely won't cover the whole band they are using, and even if interference is present the digital message will still get through, because the channel is so wide. Won't this limit the number of radios? Well, since the radio and receiver use the GUID feature and only listen for command assigned to them, this isn't a problem. And because of all the extra bandwidth with the bonded channels, performance doesn't really take a hit either.
Pros: Finally brings Spektrum into some modern technology. DSM and DSM2 are seriously dated and outdated by todays standards. Backwards compatible to an extent. Can still interoperate with their older stuff, you just lose all the new benefits.
Cons: In practice, radios have been observed to be "loud" and occasionally cause interference to other radios as they overlap much of the spectrum. Just because their radios can parse out commands by GUID and deal with it, doesn't means your brand does.
Expensive
Tends to only be used in R/C aircraft where multiple radios on are not likely. The interference to overcome is incidental or environmental - not other transmitters. This makes taking up a lot of bandwidth generally ok, as there are fewer planes in the sky at the same time compared to cars at a track.
Extremely quick response times (again it's reaching the point where you might not tell the difference)
#26
How it feels in your hand,and the features you want is what its all about.any top end radios are going to give you the performance you need and its very doubtful that you'll be able to tell a difference in speed.I've never had any gltiching issues with spektrum,and the only problem that I've seen was brownout issues from savox servos with castle esc.other than that buy what you can afford.
#27
Tech Master
iTrader: (4)
Cost was the reason I went with Spektrum over Futaba (I love Futaba stuff and ran it for years and years), I nabbed the DX4R Pro for $269 and I can get the micro race receivers for about $40. That's a fraction of what I've seen Futaba radios and receivers...
I still think I'm missing something. How can Spektrums top radio be about $350 while Futaba's top radio is $550?! You must get more than the name for $200, no? (I'm speaking about the new 4PX from Futaba)
I still think I'm missing something. How can Spektrums top radio be about $350 while Futaba's top radio is $550?! You must get more than the name for $200, no? (I'm speaking about the new 4PX from Futaba)
#28
#29
To round out this thread, so-to-speak, I've switched to the Futaba 4PX and WHOA! is there a HUGE difference between it and the DX4R Pro I had.
Actual performance (i.e. speed) may be the same but, the Futaba does things my Spektrum radio would only dream about. The difference is night and day. Not only how it feels in my hand and how 'connected' I feel to the vehicle but, it simply has settings and functions not available on the DX4R Pro.
One example: I can set the speed of the steering servo independent of direction. Meaning, I can speed up the turning of the servo and slow down the return to center separately.
Another cool thing is I can set the steering EPA to be available on top of the steering trim. It makes setting EPA super easy because I don't have to go into the menu at all.
Actual performance (i.e. speed) may be the same but, the Futaba does things my Spektrum radio would only dream about. The difference is night and day. Not only how it feels in my hand and how 'connected' I feel to the vehicle but, it simply has settings and functions not available on the DX4R Pro.
One example: I can set the speed of the steering servo independent of direction. Meaning, I can speed up the turning of the servo and slow down the return to center separately.
Another cool thing is I can set the steering EPA to be available on top of the steering trim. It makes setting EPA super easy because I don't have to go into the menu at all.