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Old 03-18-2011, 01:15 AM   #4066
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Default Max RPM

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Last edited by cherry2blost; 03-24-2011 at 03:06 AM. Reason: Millions of typo's and terrible punctuation.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:24 AM   #4067
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Originally Posted by irgo View Post
better knows than Guessing.
re-read mine again too... there's plenty of science behind it!
The suggestion about rpm@timing level... errr, surely you'll know your timing level from the settings (you know the rpm, and boost start points, and timing ramp... pretty easy to calculate from that!)

Cherry;
Don't disagree in the slightest, Data logging is a hugely useful tool for gaining the best out of the cars.

What you say about the Max RPM is the point I have been trying to get across... both in terms of each motor having a max RPM ceiling, and also that they don't just stop adding RPM at the end of the timing ramp.

Max RPM log really isn't as useful as some would have you believe, especially as you'll only ever hit that max once (maybe twice a lap). Far more important, to overall laptime IMO, to get the settings out of the corners correct...

IMO, a RPM log would be a helpful tool IF it could show you a trace vs time for at least a few minutes/laps of a run. Simply having a number spewed out of "Max RPM = xx,xxx" is about as much use as a chocolate teapot..
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:29 AM   #4068
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Originally Posted by Jack2 View Post
quick question guys, are the Units equal timing wise between 119 and 310?

so for example, 45 boost on 119 is same amount as 45 boost on 310?

cheers, jack
as i understand... 40 boost 119 is same as 44 310, which is another 4 at 119 is designed to fix to the motor... so 60 119 about to similar as 64 310... but i dont really know how the '4' at 119 react with boost accl...
u can refer to sizheng previous post... or mybe others can help u on this... at least this is mine...
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:32 AM   #4069
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:37 AM   #4070
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Well written post. Personaly, although it soudns like a cool gadget to have incorporated into an esc I would NOT want to have an internal data logger. I would rather want an external one.....when one fails i still have the other one. (anyone remembers the combined TV/VCR?)

Also i would want to have all the chips and memory to do one thing, to propel my car to speed in an efficient manner not to waste memory to do some rpm log that only is usefull when you set the esc up for the track. Once you have the settings you don't use the log that often anymore, but that is only a gues. With an external datalogger i can put it in a box and stash it away and let the esc do what it is designed for........ with a cheap price

Anyway...just my oppinion
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:42 AM   #4071
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Last edited by cherry2blost; 03-24-2011 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:43 AM   #4072
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As Cobra mentioned a few pages back the actual 'amount' of 'timing' has not changed just we now have finer adjustment points, so in theory to gain the same amount of 'timing' you will need to step up the numbers a little.
Hey cherry did ya get my PM i sent ya
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:50 AM   #4073
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:52 AM   #4074
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yeah I did, can't be arsed to change it all again means re designing the background and then copying over all the boxes, nah it's there if people want to use it However I just did a check and it is perfectly possible to save it as a PDF with the boxes filled in, not sure why peeps are having problems with it, as long as Adobe reader ver 7+ is used is Nooo problem.

For posting purposes you can either get some free web storage (mediafire etc) or press the print screen key and dump it into paint and post the picture? It's what everyone else does
Cool no probs mate all sweet!!!
Im still using it just using print screen and shrinking it down quite small so that way it wont use so much ink to print
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:06 AM   #4075
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so what's the difference b/n 211 and 213?

have not had time to look at 213 yet!
bump
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:09 AM   #4076
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Far more important, to overall laptime IMO, to get the settings out of the corners correct...
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:15 AM   #4077
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Originally Posted by cherry2blost View Post
Each motor wind has a 'limit' to how far it will rev, prior to dynamic timing this was easy to calculate as KV x Input voltage, ie 3000kv x 8v = 24,000RPM. The main differentiation between motors of differing brands was the KV which invariably took into account the amount of 'in built' timing on each brands particular 'take' on the motor.

With advanced timing it is a little more complex, however each wind will have its' own 'ceiling' RPM which it could theoretically reach if left winding up for long enough. dynamic timing has changed this by allowing us to add more current/timing (argue amongst yourselves that point) thus in effect raising the KV figure to a higher amount.

For example using my own data logger my max out RPM on the straight, with a HW 13.5T BLM, was 48,000 RPM, which using the above simplified example equates to roughly 6000kv that was with the full added 'timing etc etc' utilised. By changing the gearing I could either have it 'topping out' early or gear to 'top out' later, but one thing remained constant and that was the maximum RPM at approx 48k.

The settings that we change affect the rate at which the timing is added, as well as the maximum that we wish to use thus giving more, or less, acceleration during timing addition trading heat for acc or vice versa.

What i believe is being missed here is that the motor does not cease to increase speed once the additional timing has all been added but will continue to accelerate upto it's structural maximum RPM ie 48,000RPM.

Example: Boost Start 5000RPM, Slope 200/Unit boost 64 Units.
If you have started the 'boost' (hate that word) at say 5000RPM then you will have a relatively shallow but linear upward curve on the RPM, upon hitting the timing start then the rate of acceleration will change accodring to the ACC setting, giving a strong upward slope in RPM/Time, as the boost phase ends at approx 17,800 RPM, then the motor will revert to a linear path upto it's final limit of RPM's ie 48000.

If you were to draw this as a graph it would form an elongated laid down 'S' shape, it would seem that there is a consensus here that the RPM increase ceases with the end of the dynamic timing phase and using that theiory the motor would 'top out' at (in this example) 17,800RPM. This is clearly NOT the case as tested by us with data logging hardware.

Discuss........

PS

I hate to agree with IRGO but the data logging information is enormously useful in fine tuning gearing to allow you to tune the gearing / ACC to allow you to maximise the rotational potential of a given motor on the straight, however it is of little benefit in the twisty bits, unless you have, as we do multiple sensors such as Steering input, Throttle input, RPM, Motor Temp, ESC Temp, Current, and both lateral and longitudinal 'G' sensors. The only reading we are unable to take is the actual timing data, this would be useful to have to add to the data already being collected.

HOWEVER.....

Just knowing the Max RPM does not help, as this will not tell you how long the RPM was maxed out, thus not allowing for adjustment to track length conditions etc.
To gain accurate readings we found that the data needed to be sampled at 20 samples per second, based on the 8 sensors, that requires 160 samples PER SECOND, even with the large extended memory of our V4 logger this limits the data to about 20 minutes. Now this sounds a lot but what I am getting at is that it is NOT just a case of 'slapping' on some software for logging, but also allowing for memory to be available for the information. So I ask an open question of :-

'How much are customers willing to pay for this feature to be added to future models - allowing that there will be a considerable increase in production costs; because, as previously mentioned by myself, the HW range is the best value on the market BAR NONE giving the most BANG FOR YOUR BUCK of any manufacturer in the RC world. Or are we in danger of demanding so many applications to be added that the unit becomes as complex as, say, a GM with a price tag to match?'

Discuss.....
Given the price of hw, the amount of support and we haven't really seen a big as an issue like another blue esc. I would definitely pay a little bit more for the rpm logging built in, all this data recorded will definitely give racers a better indicative of what they're doing right/wrong.
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:22 AM   #4078
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you mean the one built by Nazis?

IPC days were waaaaaaay over.

go go communists!

Sorry, it's just Friday
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:21 AM   #4079
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Originally Posted by TryHard View Post
re-read mine again too... there's plenty of science behind it!
The suggestion about rpm@timing level... errr, surely you'll know your timing level from the settings (you know the rpm, and boost start points, and timing ramp... pretty easy to calculate from that!)
This one not true sir,

Some cases:
if you goes Turbo, the RPM exactly stayed around (becaused of loads),
less increasing while timing still increasing, and this is caused to more heat.

and your calculation .xls one will failed too, becaused you are only calculating the Firmware Logic to achieve timing, based on Rpm Start,
that you will missed the Total Voltage vs kV.

You can't calculate Under load that way.
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:34 AM   #4080
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Originally Posted by irgo View Post
This one not true sir,

Some cases:
if you goes Turbo, the RPM exactly stayed around (becaused of loads),
less increasing while timing still increasing, and this is caused to more heat.

and your calculation .xls one will failed too, becaused you are only calculating the Firmware Logic to achieve timing, based on Rpm Start,
that you will missed the Total Voltage vs kV.

You can't calculate Under load that way.
And without full logging software, you wouldn't be able to tell it either...

You might note that my .xls says nothing about turbo, why? because Turbo is related to something that is a load more difficult to quantify, which is the drivers throttle thumb...

You've missed the point of the sheet as well. It's a means to provide an idea of what the software is doing at a given point, not to provide 100% accurate values (there are way to many on track variables for that). Look at the sheet again, it says BOOST END RPM... nothing about max RPM
To say it's failed is a bit bloody rich!
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