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Old 02-17-2011, 01:41 AM   #3181
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Originally Posted by ixlr8nz View Post
I think you have got it wrong. There is a perfect timing for any motor at a certain RPM. It has become very obvious that the SP motors need +10 on the motor to make really good horsepower and torque. I am yet to see an SP motor go good with 0 degrees on the endbell. They do run cooler like that but much slower too... less timing doesn't mean more torque nescesarily, it all depends on how much you already have on there and how much it can handle + what gear ratio you have. Higher FDR means you can have more timing.

Mike
+5 did the trick for my 10.5....
FDR....7.98..
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:45 AM   #3182
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Originally Posted by irgo View Post
change your Transmitter end point to 15%
on 13.5t if kvZero is 3100rpm then you will get 3441rpm
when full throttle at 15% endpoint.
remember you had no advanced timing yet here.
Do you use a voltage sensor to be sure that your ESC is strictly and perfectly linear between 0 and 7.4V? Are you sure your batt gives you EXACTLY 7.4V?
Each of my 2S LiPo batt gives me 8.4V when full
So, 15% endpoint would give me 3906 rpm. And only if my ESC is linear between 0 and "all available voltage"
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:04 AM   #3183
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Originally Posted by DaTaz View Post
Do you use a voltage sensor to be sure that your ESC is strictly and perfectly linear between 0 and 7.4V? Are you sure your batt gives you EXACTLY 7.4V?
Each of my 2S LiPo batt gives me 8.4V when full
So, 15% endpoint would give me 3906 rpm. And only if my ESC is linear between 0 and "all available voltage"
Glad to see someone understand how it work's
Yes i can read the voltage data,
and even during free rev, the voltage is almost flat.
i was on 7.4, if you read it on charger it's 8.4v
8.4v charge is equal to 7.4v on load/normal. as fully charged is 4.2v/cell on charging volt.

no your rpm at 15% will be 3441rpm, because you read 8.4v on charge checker.
the real Full voltage is 7.4v or 3.6v/cell
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:26 AM   #3184
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Default I give up !

That's it lol am going back to the XERUN thread, this and the SP one have just become Irgo fantasy land not getting anything constructive done.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:42 AM   #3185
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Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
Probably because we have zero spec classes all around the world now, which also makes people ask what timing is in the motors, depending on how much this zero spec stuff catches on, may depend on if the next generation of motors all also come with some fixed rate of timing also I guess.

Either that or a timing war in motors...
Yes i understand the zero timing in the esc but i see loads of posts about zero timing on motors. Some are even backing the timing off the motors to zero so they can put more timing through the esc. It just seems like a waste of effort when you look at any pro setup they recommend MAX motor timing (around 40-50 degrees depending on the motor)

I say more timing and a higher gear ratio = more speed?

Am i wrong? This seems to be what the fast (sponsored) guys i race with are doing and they have no problem with torque or speed
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:50 AM   #3186
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Originally Posted by cherry2blost View Post
That's it lol am going back to the XERUN thread, this and the SP one have just become Irgo fantasy land not getting anything constructive done.
TTFN
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:55 AM   #3187
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Originally Posted by TryHard View Post
Whilst I don't agree with the opening part of your post, I do agree with what you state at the end... it depends on what motor is being used.
Remember, timing on the endbell affects the whole rev range, not a specific part of it.

This come back to there not really being a "neutral" timing standard for motors... i.e. they all come with differing amounts of timing in-built.
Seems the SP motors require a little +ve from their neutral mark (when I ran over a year ago, only ran +5), whilst I know the X12 prefer to run with their "oooo" / -10° insert.
Going deeper, you say that the SP motor's don't produce good power with 0°, and run cooler, well, without timed ESC's, you'd be gearing up up compensate... and thats a sure fire indication of there being more torque avaliable, if you follow. Torque and power are two different things...

Regards
Ed
I have posted it many, many times already (although nobody ever seems to notice it) - the SP v3 endbell markings are WRONG. NEVER run the motor on the marked zero, it is actually 10deg retarded from the true zero (30deg mechanical). The motor will never perform on that setting.

To those that say the SP v3 motor cannot be fast unless you run it on +10 - I've had it running very quickly in the middle of the slot, thankyou. It was very fast in the middle of the slot on 518, but dead as a dodo on 119.

I think perhaps that from reading Cherry's defence of the 119 software that I will go back to 518 until we can get some initial settings that are not based on Shinwa motor dressers, guesswork and shouting. As it stands, irgo's measurements of the boost seem more credible than the Hobbywing representatives defence of them - and I never thought I would write that.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:16 AM   #3188
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
I have posted it many, many times already (although nobody ever seems to notice it) - the SP v3 endbell markings are WRONG. NEVER run the motor on the marked zero, it is actually 10deg retarded from the true zero (30deg mechanical). The motor will never perform on that setting.

To those that say the SP v3 motor cannot be fast unless you run it on +10 - I've had it running very quickly in the middle of the slot, thankyou. It was very fast in the middle of the slot on 518, but dead as a dodo on 119.

I think perhaps that from reading Cherry's defence of the 119 software that I will go back to 518 until we can get some initial settings that are not based on Shinwa motor dressers, guesswork and shouting. As it stands, irgo's measurements of the boost seem more credible than the Hobbywing representatives defence of them - and I never thought I would write that.
Not a Hobbywing Rep just a seller and a racer, it was just my personal thoughts sosidge, not a HW Point of view, since when did it become wrong to share our own thoughts and views on the open forum. We played with the stuff for our own benefit NOT for the benefit of others I now regret sharing our findings, but feel free to follow the ramblings of Irgo.

We used what we had laying around at the time as I don't have a factory style workstation here just stuff we had laying about, how can using an accurate REV measuring tool be any less accurate than Irgo 'Guessing' what the REVS are by sound, at least I was able to actually 'measure' WHERE about in the REV range the timing actually kicked in.

I actually feel pretty hurt by the comments there sosidge, I have always tried to make myself available to help other racers with our sometime destructive testing, help threads, tutorial videos etc. But if my input is no longer required will just go back under my stone and concentrate on the sales side of things, rest assured that I will keep my future 'self' testing purely to myself and leave you to enjoy the 'what if' wishlists of Mr Irgo.

BTW 'what if' there really was a Santa Claus or 'what if' I could win the National Lottery..
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:25 AM   #3189
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Guys, everbody just relax a bit.

I myself allways keep in mind that everyone is posting with the best of intentions from their experiences and beliefs.

So differences of opinion will also arrise.
Just don't get pissed if anyone is disagreeing. Comments (if stated politely) are part of any good forums.
Thats how everyone learns.

Well keep on testing, racing and sharing.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:31 AM   #3190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
I have posted it many, many times already (although nobody ever seems to notice it) - the SP v3 endbell markings are WRONG. NEVER run the motor on the marked zero, it is actually 10deg retarded from the true zero (30deg mechanical). The motor will never perform on that setting.

To those that say the SP v3 motor cannot be fast unless you run it on +10 - I've had it running very quickly in the middle of the slot, thankyou. It was very fast in the middle of the slot on 518, but dead as a dodo on 119 !!!!!!

I think perhaps that from reading Cherry's defence of the 119 software that I will go back to 518 until we can get some initial settings that are not based on Shinwa motor dressers, guesswork and shouting. As it stands, irgo's measurements of the boost seem more credible than the Hobbywing representatives defence of them - and I never thought I would write that.
"but dead as a dodo on 119 !!!!!!"

Ok, unless the settings are incorrect or something more !!

SP V3 21.5 on zero timing with HW 119 stock software. Car, XRAY T3 2011 is fast with great acceleration. Details of setup below.

Run Sunday night 13/02/11 at local track SERCCC (Melbourne Australia) on a flowing track setup. Three speed portions and four tight/hairpins sections. New set up on ESC only.

Michael Clarke (driver)
Car - XRAY T3 2011
FDR - 4.91
MOTOR - SP21.5 V3 SET TO ZERO DEGREE. TIMING SENSOR CABLE ALL THE WAY TO THE LEFT IN THE ALLOY SLOT
BATTERY USED - YUNTONG 5000 40C
TYRES - Muchmore 32 premounts
RADIO - Futaba 2PL
BODY - HPI MAZDA 6
CAR SETUP - Kit standard with a change to droop on rear and more front droop.

SETTINGS USED ARE LISTED BELOW ARE THE NEW SETTINGS FROM 13/02/11.

1 = 1
2 = 0%
3 = 3.4V
4 = 9
5 = 100%
6 = 25%
7 = 0%
8 = 6%
9 = 35
10 = 24
11 = ENABLED
12 = 24
13 = 3000
14 = 0.3SEC
15= 750

3 out of 4 heat wins. Motor temps stayed around 55 degree. hope this helps with any questions.

Cheers

Ren
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:46 AM   #3191
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irgo, if u really want an RPM logger, just wait a lil more for the MT-4. then u can log all u want at your own expense.
stop ur whine and leave the ESC guys to cater to what majority of us needs while keeping their product cost reasonable.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:55 AM   #3192
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Originally Posted by venom54 View Post
"but dead as a dodo on 119 !!!!!!"
I did some running last night with the Novak Sentry data logger installed (although not much running as someone stopped on the straight... I hit them at 48mph according to the logger, which meant a lengthy repair).

Firmware is 0119.
Motor is SP v3 10.5
FDR 6.5
Track is large (50m straight - top speed about 50mph).

I initially ran with a Boost Start of 3000 and an End RPM (calculated) of 11000. Boost was set to 40 "degrees" and boost ramp to 200RPM/deg.

The Sentry showed that my revs on the infield ranged from about 8000 to 25000. So, I adjusted the Boost Start to 9000, giving an End RPM of 17000. This should have given zero boost out of the slowest corners for maximum torque, and ensured that all of the boost is used on the small infield straights.

The effect on track... nothing, it felt exactly the same, the laptimes were the same, and the acceleration curves from the data logger looked the same.

On the 518 a change this big would have been very noticable.

I very rarely understand any of the drivel that Irgo writes... but in this case he almost seems to be correct. The Boost Start isn't doing very much that I can feel or measure.

Next week I'll try turning all of the boost off and running 60 "degrees" of turbo with no delay and a soft turbo ramp. If the problem is that the boost is coming in too early, this should bring the bottom-end back that the 119 is missing.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:04 AM   #3193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venom54 View Post
"but dead as a dodo on 119 !!!!!!"

Ok, unless the settings are incorrect or something more !!

SP V3 21.5 on zero timing with HW 119 stock software. Car, XRAY T3 2011 is fast with great acceleration. Details of setup below.

Run Sunday night 13/02/11 at local track SERCCC (Melbourne Australia) on a flowing track setup. Three speed portions and four tight/hairpins sections. New set up on ESC only.

Michael Clarke (driver)
Car - XRAY T3 2011
FDR - 4.91
MOTOR - SP21.5 V3 SET TO ZERO DEGREE. TIMING SENSOR CABLE ALL THE WAY TO THE LEFT IN THE ALLOY SLOT
BATTERY USED - YUNTONG 5000 40C
TYRES - Muchmore 32 premounts
RADIO - Futaba 2PL
BODY - HPI MAZDA 6
CAR SETUP - Kit standard with a change to droop on rear and more front droop.

SETTINGS USED ARE LISTED BELOW ARE THE NEW SETTINGS FROM 13/02/11.

1 = 1
2 = 0%
3 = 3.4V
4 = 9
5 = 100%
6 = 25%
7 = 0%
8 = 6%
9 = 35
10 = 24
11 = ENABLED
12 = 24
13 = 3000
14 = 0.3SEC
15= 750

3 out of 4 heat wins. Motor temps stayed around 55 degree. hope this helps with any questions.

Cheers

Ren
Hi Ren,

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but what standard of "heat" are you winning?

I'm not looking for heat wins, I'm generally looking to TQ club meetings, and generally looking for A-final placings in regional level meetings.

With 20-odd years experience at the sticks I believe I have a pretty good feel for a cars powerband.

From that basis, I have found 119 a significant disappointment compared to 518. 518 came with a very clear initial setup for 13.5 which I used and was extremely happy with. 119 came with a very vague initial setup (boost anywhere between 30 and 50, ratio anywhere between 5:1 and 7:1 etc.). I went for something more or less in the middle of these very wide ranges and found that the top end was perhaps better than on 518, but the bottom end and general throttle feel was a lot worse.

To read irgo's comments - and although irgo's posts have flaws, I do believe that he takes his measurements seriously - and add it in to a number of other comments on this thread, and what I have heard from people trackside, perhaps there really is a problem with the way 119 applies the boost?

Cherry - I'm afraid that as the UK importer, your comments will be interpreted as representing the product, even if you do not intend it.

Again, the overall impression I get is that this software has been rushed to the market without the same degree of testing that was put into 518. Three alternative versions released to the public (one officially) with a month is too many. A basic setup with such a wide range is virtually useless.

Anyway, I will quite happily go back to 518 for now as it was working well for me (although I personally will be looking to run in zero-timing classes over the summer). I have no problems with the Hobbywing hardware - it is good quality and represents excellent value - but feel that this software release has been handled badly.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:05 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by daleburr View Post
I did some running last night with the Novak Sentry data logger installed (although not much running as someone stopped on the straight... I hit them at 48mph according to the logger, which meant a lengthy repair).

Firmware is 0119.
Motor is SP v3 10.5
FDR 6.5
Track is large (50m straight - top speed about 50mph).

I initially ran with a Boost Start of 3000 and an End RPM (calculated) of 11000. Boost was set to 40 "degrees" and boost ramp to 200RPM/deg.

The Sentry showed that my revs on the infield ranged from about 8000 to 25000. So, I adjusted the Boost Start to 9000, giving an End RPM of 17000. This should have given zero boost out of the slowest corners for maximum torque, and ensured that all of the boost is used on the small infield straights.

The effect on track... nothing, it felt exactly the same, the laptimes were the same, and the acceleration curves from the data logger looked the same.

On the 518 a change this big would have been very noticable.

I very rarely understand any of the drivel that Irgo writes... but in this case he almost seems to be correct. The Boost Start isn't doing very much that I can feel or measure.

Next week I'll try turning all of the boost off and running 60 "degrees" of turbo with no delay and a soft turbo ramp. If the problem is that the boost is coming in too early, this should bring the bottom-end back that the 119 is missing.
Posted as I typed Dale. Couldn't agree more.

What clearer indication could there be of an issue with boost in 119?
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:16 AM   #3195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daleburr View Post
I did some running last night with the Novak Sentry data logger installed (although not much running as someone stopped on the straight... I hit them at 48mph according to the logger, which meant a lengthy repair).

Firmware is 0119.
Motor is SP v3 10.5
FDR 6.5
Track is large (50m straight - top speed about 50mph).

I initially ran with a Boost Start of 3000 and an End RPM (calculated) of 11000. Boost was set to 40 "degrees" and boost ramp to 200RPM/deg.

The Sentry showed that my revs on the infield ranged from about 8000 to 25000. So, I adjusted the Boost Start to 9000, giving an End RPM of 17000. This should have given zero boost out of the slowest corners for maximum torque, and ensured that all of the boost is used on the small infield straights.

The effect on track... nothing, it felt exactly the same, the laptimes were the same, and the acceleration curves from the data logger looked the same.

On the 518 a change this big would have been very noticable.

I very rarely understand any of the drivel that Irgo writes... but in this case he almost seems to be correct. The Boost Start isn't doing very much that I can feel or measure.

Next week I'll try turning all of the boost off and running 60 "degrees" of turbo with no delay and a soft turbo ramp. If the problem is that the boost is coming in too early, this should bring the bottom-end back that the 119 is missing.
Wow well I stand corrected, maybe it's variances in the ESC's? Be interesting to get Factory feedback on that one, can you email me your results so I can look at them myself and maybe play with them here just for our own interest mind lol

Can you re run the test using 518 just so we have comparison data to work with, I love this side of the ESC's we finally are able to become proper geeks with our speedo's can't wait for the comparisons, may even consider buying a data logger just for the crack of it lol.
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Last edited by cherry2blost; 02-17-2011 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Added Linky
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