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Old 12-13-2012, 12:37 PM   #1006
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Originally Posted by M7H View Post
This equipment is totally different from what you have seen so far, so believe me, in this case you are wrong.

Here you have there previous motor/esc combination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdEhCun8ZRg
So why are we not running sensorless in any of the highest levels of electric racing classes....Spec or Mod Sedan, Spec or Mod 1/12, World GT, 2WD/4WD Buggy?

Don't say rules because the racers MAKE the rules change when the technology is worthy.

As far as the video the speed is impressive but that car handles very poorly due to the excessive power. 10 cars trying to race at that speed would be a disaster.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:47 PM   #1007
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Sensored is a good working technology, this is based on a different technology, and maybe in the future all ESC will work similar to this.....
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:05 PM   #1008
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With normal esc in sensorless you can't put in dynamic timing. Some systems you can change the static timing.

With that system M7H refers too it does adjust timing in sensorless mode and does it by adaptive timing. I think it changes timing by amp draw (is already some time ago). So it sees how much timing the system needs and automaticly adapts timing for it.


Most brands can't get a cheap esc to work properly in sensorless. The first sensorless esc and motors were rubbish in car application. Hence you don't see these esc in big races as most brands can't figure out how to make a good sensorless esc so the (top) drivers don't look silly with cogging motors.


Many of the pro10 modified drivers run sensorless. Do you see any start up problems in the movies?

They use GM120 esc. A very smooth esc also in sensorless mode...one of the few esc that can run sensorless with the feel of sensord.

I have run sensorless once by accident with my hobbywing v2.1 120A xerun combo and except for the lack of speed, I didn't notice anything with startup and driving etc. I pulled the car of the track a few times and crancked up the boost cause it was slow. I figured a few houres later it was running sensorless. .

ps:
That the 1/8 car handles crap is not the point. The point is it goes fast . While testing you need to go over the limit to see what a system can do. Indeed, it is so fast with so much torque the car can't handle it propperly in the video but maybe the car's setup was off as well? You can always go slower with lower operating tempratures and longer driving times as a result?
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Last edited by 2wdrive; 12-13-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:48 PM   #1009
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Hi,
my name is Armin.
Working for Shepherd Micro Racing in Germany.
Design in cooperation with a passionated Swiss Ingineer.

In attach some Pictures of our 1/8 Scale Project!!!

More informations will follow soon....
Very cool, thanks for posting
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:33 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by 2wdrive View Post
With normal esc in sensorless you can't put in dynamic timing. Some systems you can change the static timing.

With that system M7H refers too it does adjust timing in sensorless mode and does it by adaptive timing. I think it changes timing by amp draw (is already some time ago). So it sees how much timing the system needs and automaticly adapts timing for it.
I can't think of any sensorless RC ESCs with dynamic timing, but it's certainly possible to do. It's actually easier to write the code for it than with sensored, as the "hooks" are already there (sensorless code always keeps track of speed and uses timing delay for commutation). Monitoring current isn't necessary to do dynamic timing on sensorless. But it does make easier to detect wheelspin, and can be used for a "traction control" system.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:34 AM   #1011
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He didn't say it was some form of current limmit but maybe it is in there as well. In a nut shell the explanation I got was that the system senses what is needed (amp draw) and adjust the fire sequence accordingly. To me that is simmilar with dynamic timing but different hence the word adaptive timing (his own words) but maybe I simplified it a little with that term. If i remember correctly there is an application on it to set the aggressiveness how much timing it uses. etc.

I am not affiliated with the designers/company and my knowledge isn't all to deep on this subject so I only repeat what the test guy told me lol. If the system does what he told me then it should be a big push forwards in rc technology.

ps:
or it cculd be hokum but the opperating temperatures of the system does prove there is a high form of efficiency going on.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:47 AM   #1012
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He didn't say it was some form of current limmit but maybe it is in there as well.
As you know, current limiting has been used for a long time to help prevent the tries from breaking loose. Unfortunately, it is of no use once the tires have broken loose. A better form of traction control is to monitor the current, then cut back on the throttle when the current shows a sudden decrease (due to spinning tires). But that's not a new idea, either. Also, ROAR rules prohibit "traction control sensing devices". Interestingly, one could interpret even simple current limiting as violating this rule. What are the rules in Europe?

Using current rather than RPM to control timing advance would work nicely. It will be interesting to hear more details of what those designers are up to!
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:55 AM   #1013
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ps: or it cculd be hokum
I've designed alot of that, too.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:58 AM   #1014
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What are the rules in Europe?
Rules on Electric 8th scale on-road racing?
Last time I checked, they didn't exist!....
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:08 AM   #1015
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Rules on Electric 8th scale on-road racing?
Last time I checked, they didn't exist!....
Good point! Finally, a class where we can use traction control systems, gyros, active suspensions, and one-motor-per-wheel propulsion systems! We've already got drive-by-wire... or wireless, rather.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:09 AM   #1016
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In the Netherlands electronic devices like a gyroscope, sensors on the wheels, traction control and such are not allowed. Mechanical aids such as a slipper clutch are are not allowed. The use of systems that collect data during the race is not allowed.

In modified it is allowed to run delta wind motors and to run sensor or sensorless.

It is a discussion point if it is a traction control but 1/8 scale electro is a new class so new rules. If that esc runs smooth with less temperatures and more efficiency why care about some rules that they made years ago for 1/10 scale. Maybe they are outdated anyway? (rhetorical question )
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:23 AM   #1017
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It is a discussion point if it is a traction control but 1/8 scale electro is a new class so new rules.
It's no discussion, because 8th Electric is not a class yet!.....


Be glad companies are pioneering in what is possible! and take the technique a step further (as always when 8th scale gets involved )
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:32 AM   #1018
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It might be fun to have a class where there are as few restrictions as possible.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:32 AM   #1019
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I know but in the future it can be a viable second class next to 1/8 nitro. Buy eight scale car, electronics inside and blast by the nitro's in a 5-7 minute race. 1/8 scale electric offroad is a class I think? it is a matter of time 1/8 scale onroad will be a dedicated class as well.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:06 AM   #1020
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I know but in the future it can be a viable second class next to 1/8 nitro. Buy eight scale car, electronics inside and blast by the nitro's in a 5-7 minute race. 1/8 scale electric offroad is a class I think? it is a matter of time 1/8 scale onroad will be a dedicated class as well.
1/8 off road is getting very popular but still not recognized by IFMAR/EFRA/ROAR...
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