Jspeed

The idea of “Spec & Open” GT class racing wasn’t invented by that group. The only reason the GT field is not big enough anymore for both classes is because the "Open" guys killed off the GT Spec class that we created.



Nowadays, you guys have made GT racing more expensive than 1/8 scale & 200mm cars. And you guys wonder why the class is close to being totally dead now. Just look at the embarrassing and pitiful low declining GT racer attendance levels at most all "big" GT racing events in America for the past three years. lol

Joe Kimble

iTrader: (19)

I only have been racing GT since last year, so I'm not apart of that beef that went on. But I understand where you come from.
When it is true that the arrival of the Cobra GT changed a lot of things in the GT game (and don't get me wrong, I run the TeamC car so I'm not trying to promote anything here), the Inferno GT2 is still one of the fastest RTR GT8 out of the box, simply because it comes with a waaayyy taller gearing than the other cars on the market and is also delivered with an engine that can handle that gearing.
From what I noticed, what makes top GT8 drivers faster is a combination of setup, durability to finish the race, good electronics and of course good driving.
I started racing GT8 with a bone stock Inferno GT2. The car was very fast but the cost of maintenance was high. Racing is going to be expensive no matter what. We put a lot of stress on the components of the cars which calls for regular replacement of worn or wobbly parts and there is no way around that.
I did notice when reading older threads and visiting inferno only forums that even way back a lot of people were modifying the inferno to get is stronger and faster. I saw mods like the evolva 2 speed (I think they call it blackhawk?), putting the optional straight cut pinion ring to be able to compensate with the heat generated by using 21 engines with such a tall gearing, carbon chassis, optional C-hubs, and some other upgrades to make the GT2 race ready. I had conversations guys who have been racing GT for years and they agreed that the saying "GT is a cheap class" is a myth. They also agreed that GT8 was not a beginners class but that's another debate.
At the end of the day, racing is racing and whether it's in spec class or open everyone will try to get better by either getting more power, hop ups, understanding set-up and driving better. From what I observed on others and myself, what makes a guy faster is his global understanding of what makes a car fast. And I can tell you that it's not the engine that's on top of the list. The engine makes a difference only when you are already battling at the top and that you need that extra edge to keep up with guys who already have understood the other key things that will put them on the podium.
I don't know exactly what damaged this class so much, and my guess is that it's a combination of higher costs, frustration, political beef and arguments on forums, and other things. But you can't deny that if you compare GT a few years back and GT now you will see that cars got better and that the class is being recognized by a larger crowd. If you look at the market there are quite a few RTR cars that came out this year. There's a floury of youtube videos that popped up this year with guys showing off their brand new RTR. My guess is that a lot of these guys will want to put their car on a track at some point and some of them will catch the "race bug".

Jspeed

Joe,

There’s no “beef”, was just pointing out who created the GT Spec & GT Open class concept.

For the past three years the “misguided” have run the classes we invented into the ground. It’s funny because now they have 100% of nothing.

The Blackhawk transmission you spoke of was invented with the help of our friends “Dava” of Mexico City & “MikaR” of Finland (Both early GT racing pioneers). We built about 300 of the Blackhawk transmissions (Which kept GT racing alive back in the day) and stopped production once Kyosho fixed their unit.

As far as the class being better now than yesterday, that is another false meme to protect those that ruined what we built.

Sure, the cars are a little bit faster; there are a few “Pro” drivers, but other than that where’s the class today?

Bro, racing against the same 8 to 12 guys week after week is far from a growing class.

The GT class is dead and the pitiful race attendance levels since the GT Spec class was murdered are proof. The pathetic low attendance in GT now are what happens when the crazies get to run our GT class their way. 100% of nothing = Nothing, lol

The silly new engine rule protects nothing, drop the on-road guts into an off-road engine or pay an engine guru for mod$ to your engine and it fits the “rule”.

Wannna know why they made the "Licensed body only" rule?
Wannna know who was behind that rule?

I'll leave you guys to continue to kill off whats left of the class we built, have fun doing it your way! lol

oskygt

Joseph16

iTrader: (2)

Bla,Bla,bla,bla...

Roelof

Explain!

willcarrera

iTrader: (1)

There is some serious anger and pain on this thread. This is an opinion from a guy who has just come back to RC racing after a 14 year layoff. I decided to get back into RC racing earlier this year and fell in love with the idea of the GT class and picked up a Cobra GT (serpent fanboy). Thinking this was going to be a great reintroduction into racing at a more beginner level giving me time to start driving and acquiring tools and gear needed to get into a different classes. Boy was I wrong, I know that all racing comes with a large price tag but I had no idea what all was involved with the GT class. I have raced 10th scale and 1/8th scale at a competitive level so I have an idea of the time and money it takes to get a good setup going, but the overall car knowledge of racing is taken to the limits with the GT car. I was not around for the true spec class or open class all I know is the current class and I see it not surviving the way its being commissioned. A person new to RC will be quickly turned off by the type of modifications needed to be made to be competitive and an experienced driver doesn't want another headache. The way I see this class really working is something bone stock where both beginners and experienced drivers can just get together and have fun. This opinion is also coming from a guy who has every optional part on this car along with every body and an engine modified by a pro. Go figure

JLock

iTrader: (4)

It use to be that way in the very beginning of the class. At first, all that was allowed to run was the stock RTR engine and car straight out of the box. Then, a few upgrades were allowed and in some areas, a short-list of inexpense engines were allowed to replace the RTR engines (all the lists had engines that were comparable in horsepower and all were under $200). It wasn't until after the Ipanema race in March 2010 when some in the class decided to make it a money-driven class. When I first started running GT, it cost less than $700 to run the class (even changing to one of the low-cost "spec" engines on the developed lists). The new players that came in starting 2011 push the class to where it is today. To be competitive with the guys running now, you have to spend just as much if not a little more than an 8th scale Lola-bodied 4wd pan car (which is not where this class was suppose to be). The original concept of this class was to be a fun, entry-level nitro class where the cars are super durable and a class to bring the parking lot bashers (and some 8th scale offroaders) from the fringes to the track. There have been a few that have been trying to bring a spec-type level back to the class (to run alongside the money guys) but it has been fought against tooth and nail for whatever reasons.

oskygt

Pit-racer

iTrader: (4)

Why and who?

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

Australia has been getting into 8th GT on what looks to be the tail end of the 'bubble' for it, I'm not convinced the rules for it are even remotely what they should be for the intent of the class.

What were the rules over there originally?, now I'm seeing two speeds, up to 8 ports, 9mm inserts all being ok, I don't see how now them being cheaper to run than an 8th elite wing car, the tyres for the GT don't look cheap either.

I liked how the 8th GT looked like 2-3 years back, now it looks like you'd spend way more than 200mm, and running costs like real 8th scale.

howardns

ROAR IC GT8 Rules update
1. Engine: SEE 9.3 of ROAR~ any .21 size 5 port engine or ready to run kit with a factory .25 or .28 (must keep pull start on .25 and .28 if ready to run came with it.) For level 3 and below events only. Level 4 and above events any .21 5 port motor only
1. Max carb bore 7mm
2. Pipes: ROAR guidelines.
1. Rubber extensions to stinger OK
2. No internal moving parts".
3. Chassis: Any 1/8 scale buggy or Truggy based shaft driven nitro powered vehicle. (Any off-road conversion is OK) with front kick up.
1. Chassis with Kick up cannot be altered to change original manufacturers design.
2. Stock and factory optional chassis are permitted, but it must retain all the characteristics of the standard off-road chassis on which it’s based. Chassis must be identical to their off-road counterparts in all dimensions except where it’s necessary to convert the chassis for on-road use. Carbon fiber chassis are not permitted.
3. For 2014 season only Ofna and Team C racing flat chassis are allowed. Starting in 2015 All chassis must have front kick up flat chassis will no longer be allowed. 4. Body: Any commercially available factory licensed replicas of ALMS, GT1 or GT2, Super GT, DTM, and V8 Supercar Cars. Licensed Bodies required for ROAR Competition starting 1/1/2015. For 2014 any commercially available body that resembles a GT body. Body must be a 2 seater with 2 doors. 1. Sports Cars: Closed wheel cars designed specifically for racing in full-size series. Engine Head may not protrude above body.

A) Wings and spoilers can be used if they are the original with the body and cut on the factory lines.
B) All wheel wells must be cut out and rear of the bodies should maintain tail lamps and cannot be completely cut out. Wings must be attached to the body.
C) No wedge style Bodies
D) All body approvals will be subject to scrutiny of the respective or collective advisory
committees regarding compliance to the "spirit of the rules." An objective evaluation
shall determine the status of each submission based on the adherence to the said rule
E) • Bodies must be factory licensed replicas of the aforementioned street or race cars, but no “race-only” bodies are permitted. Bodies based on Daytona Prototypes, or the odd Super GT cars that are not representative of a commonly available street car, are not permitted.
F) Bodies must include full front and rear fascia’s, and conform to the rules herein that limit openings in the body for the purposes of re-fueling, starting, engine tuning, and antenna holes
G) Bodies must be fully detailed in order to compete in ROAR competition. The body must have visible window, body panel and trim markings, and the windows must be mostly clear. Some intrusion for creative painting purposes and tinting is permitted, but the windows must be transparent. Bodies must have headlight and grill detail.
Transmission:
• Transmission: Single speed or two-speed only. Single speed configurations must include a solidly mounted spur gear to a standard bevel gear center differential or a solid spool (no one-way bearing). No other differential types will be permitted.
• Two-speed transmissions must use an automatic centrifugal shifting mechanism that is not remotely adjustable or programmable. Because of the nature of the two-speed transmission design, no center differential is required, but the transmission must include a solid center shaft that doesn’t allow differential action between the front and rear drive assemblies.
Clutch: Only buggy based 2, 3, or 4 shoes systems No radial type clutches (Centex)


DRIVETRAIN
• A shaft-drive system with two gear-type open differentials are required.
• No one-ways, spools, locking “Torsion-type,” or externally adjustable differentials are permitted. The gear diffs can be tuned only with the use of silicone-based fluid.
• Identical F/R drive ratios are required – no F/R under drive/overdrive permitted.
• A single speed mounted to a center spool, or an included two-speed transmission are permitted.
• The drivetrain shall be a center shaft system with ring and pinion gears driving the differentials.
• Shaft-drive only – belt driven cars are not permitted. The drive system must maintain the same features as used in the original off-road configuration except where noted, including the center differential/two speed transmission with separate front and rear center drive shaft’s.
• Only standard mechanical brakes are permitted – hydraulics are not permitted. Up to two brake discs are permitted anywhere on the center driveshaft’s. Brakes may not be located on the outboard axles.
Fuel Tank: Up to 150cc max fuel capacity
Wheels: • Wheels must use a 17mm hex hub consistent with the dimensions and function of the hubs used in 1/8 off-road racing. The wheel must be affixed by a 17mm wheel nut, threaded on to the hex hub. Quick change mechanisms are not permitted.
• Dish wheels are not permitted. No more than 30-percent of the face of the wheel may be solid. The wheel “face” will be defined as all areas of the wheel between the mounting bead and the center mounting hole.
Tires: Rubber Tires only - (maximum width: 47mm) Traction compound: OK
• Tires must be "production" tires – hand cut tires or those not available to the general public are not permitted. "Available" is defined as having been sold to consumers a minimum of 30 days prior to the official start of the event. Tires must be molded rubber - no foam tires are permitted in any class.
• Spec tires chosen by ROAR will be mandatory at all level 4 and level 5 events. Input from the host facility regarding favored compounds for track conditions will be considered, but the final decision on spec tires will remain with ROAR. The best interests of the racers will be the overriding criteria in choosing a proper spec tire. Financial, sponsorship, and/or business relationships of the host facility cannot be considered.
• All races must be completed on the same tires used to start each race (qualifying and finals). Tire changes are not permitted except when a wheel and/or tire are determined by the race director or a ROAR official, to be damaged. Excessive tire wear does not constitute damage

Weight: Minimum dry weight of 3500 grams (with body and all four tires on the) vehicle)
__________________

JLock

iTrader: (4)

Bishop,

Here is a link to the basic rules that GT started running by since late 2007.

http://www.gtworldchampionships.com/...12GTRules.aspx

These rules had been modified over the years to try to keep up with the evolution of the class. The engine rules for the Spec Class changed when spec was a viable option (started with RTR engines, then made a list of low-cost engines {all were $200 and under}, then modified to what you see on the link). The original rules developed were for Spec and Open only. As things changed, Outlaw and Electric were added as part of the evolution. The core of these rules (Open and Spec) were developed long before ROAR's rules (which they used as a basis for some of their current rules) by a group of racers from Leisure Hours Raceway (headed by Bubbacola). They were the first group to organize racing these cars and many of the rules developed around the world in the beginning of GT racing (including the rules in the link) were based off Bubbacola's rules.

blis

Jlock, there have been developing problems in Australia in IC On-Road in the last 6 years, I don't think any one person or concept is to blame. As everyone knows global economic issues hit the pockets of everyone so we won't go there.

Onto GT, we ran at a AARCMCC sanctioned event where it was a small short track, wide enough but tight. We were running our 200mm, it was the first time a good field of GT's came and encouraging to see event numbers grow. As usual there were distinct differences in skill level. Some cars were a little "bashy and loose" others were quite tight, there were heaps of cars at the finish line and there was a lot of barrier hopping and u-turns going on and from where I was standing most of them didnt fall to pieces and there were a lot of happy faces.

I pondered over whether the field was better off with or without the those couple of experienced driver and concluded that it was a good idea to have some experience in the field to set a good driving etiquette for the new comers.

Personally I think it should be pullstart, fuel bottle, glowy and plug/tyre wrench. But they use starter boxes and I totally get it from a Novice point of view that a starter box has to be the way to go. Run IC 200mm for a few years and I really do think the simplicity and cost effectiveness of a true pull start RTR class, but that's all learned in hindsight once you get to know the cars. Im sure there's hours of specifics involved in getting the big picture sorted but there was one guy....

It was his first sanctioned meeting ever, he made the 3 hour trip and attended, kudos to him for having a go. The engine in his car was tired, he was struggling to get it tuned. He wasn't frustrated, just eager and he was loving the atmosphere and I stepped over and offfered to take a look.

He said he had another engine, it was stilla little tight, coming from novice ourselves, it's always risky to change, so we persisted in trying to get the engine to behave and it wasn't playing ball. There wasn't enough time for a tear down and another driver came across and said "Use your new engine..." We all know what it's like at the beginning hanging on to additional expenses as long as we can, he agreed to bite the bullet and swap engines...

So from a novice point of view, this guy took the plunge and had a go at a state title and why not! There were experienced people helping him improve his skill set and car performance and he was soaking it all in and loving it. Later as I was watching the finals and it ended, he came over right after the race and with giant beaming eyes and a huge smile. Said...

"That's the most awesome experience, I ran for 30 WHOLE minutes non stop and had a BLAST!!"

I thanked him back for enjoying it, it was a pleasure to see someone still at the root of our hobby, enjoying his race car, not yet caught up in lap times or results, brands or sponsors and adding one more happy driver to the event.

When specifications make it difficult for newcomers to enjoy because others are buying car performance and imposing that on newcomers that just came to have a good time and finish, that's when things need to get real about how we classify drivers and their motives for the class.

I've had the idea of inviting top drivers to setup and set a benchmark time to let newcomers get a real value to work from and be able to rationalise who and what they are up against so they know when to re-assess the situation. Might also put a little peer pressure on those who are doing it for the wrong reasons. Adding subjective rules are definitely not the way to go!

I mentioned earlier that it's important to have experience on track, it's more about newcomer education, not just car tuning and engineering. Newcomers appreciate the support, they can have a good time coming last if the RC community lets them know that at the front of the field, it's going to be tough and it might be wiser to hang in there, get your skills and kit sorted and when they can't get further in GT results to step up a class and make some room for another newcomer.

If GT is an avenue to expose newcomers to the long term commitment required to develop into internationally recognized classes, then it's a good breeding ground for newcomers. I too have read the excessive investment and $$ drive for performance and without some experienced heads on the drivers stand to keep it real, then it's just another fad poaching drivers from the International IC specs.

I was watching youtube 1/8 racing and thought,*g* those wheels look big and why are they so slow.... then realised they were using Lola shells on a GT car, ouch!

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

Interesting reading rules wise, the draft rules here have gone right to .21 8 port and 9mm insert limit, so in effect open class I guess, to me that seems like it's just going to be a proposed entry class with 8th international wing car type spending, but I could be wrong.

I see the appeal, I just also see it as thinning out what is the most struggling class world wide, being IC OnRoad.