Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
01-26-2004, 09:51 PM
#1
Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
Back in the ol' days of just a few years ago , Kyosho was the dominant leader in 1/8th off-road buggies and there were no decent competitors.
Fast forward to present time. Now, manufacturers from China, Taiwan are able to produce similar quality kits for much less.
Novarossi has and always been the dominant engine manufacturer since time began. They charge high dollar for their engines - let alone the modified line.
Look folks, engines are engines, the theory of its inner workings and its science has been known for decades. Everyone in the know (and there is many) understands what makes more power within a particular engine design - its not a mystery anymore.
Our national champion, Michael Kerr is hoping Sirio to get their act together and try to beat this towering behemoth and hopefully bring cost down.
Why not then, the asian manufacturers take this into their own hands and produce highly cost effective modified engines that equals or rivals Novarossi's line? (both in terms of performance, build quality and reliability) They are already well known for copying items from software, to handbags, to clothes and god knows what else and boy do they do it well.
Novarossi's current market standing is as any greedy businessman would say "If we can charge more, why not?"
We have private citizens that can modify engines for U$80-90. There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.
Why not take a few sample of everyone's line of modified engines - i.e. Lelasi's, Rody's, Mario's, JP's - use a 3D laser scanner and have a CAD model they can work with.
This is a relatively inexpensive investment which does not require much R&D work and it would be great to get some brand reliability from the East. Since they are known for copying everything from wallets to clothes and god knows what else - surely they can do engines as well
O.S. engines can sell VZ-B/V01Bs for U$185 from HK (retail price) - surely with a cad drawing of a JP Black RX P5 motor for example, they can make new moulds and produce the same replica for the same price (or slightly higher) as their VZ-B/V01b line?
U$500-600 for an engine and U$200 for replacement P/S is outright robbery.
Comments?
Fast forward to present time. Now, manufacturers from China, Taiwan are able to produce similar quality kits for much less.
Novarossi has and always been the dominant engine manufacturer since time began. They charge high dollar for their engines - let alone the modified line.
Look folks, engines are engines, the theory of its inner workings and its science has been known for decades. Everyone in the know (and there is many) understands what makes more power within a particular engine design - its not a mystery anymore.
Our national champion, Michael Kerr is hoping Sirio to get their act together and try to beat this towering behemoth and hopefully bring cost down.
Why not then, the asian manufacturers take this into their own hands and produce highly cost effective modified engines that equals or rivals Novarossi's line? (both in terms of performance, build quality and reliability) They are already well known for copying items from software, to handbags, to clothes and god knows what else and boy do they do it well.
Novarossi's current market standing is as any greedy businessman would say "If we can charge more, why not?"
We have private citizens that can modify engines for U$80-90. There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.
Why not take a few sample of everyone's line of modified engines - i.e. Lelasi's, Rody's, Mario's, JP's - use a 3D laser scanner and have a CAD model they can work with.
This is a relatively inexpensive investment which does not require much R&D work and it would be great to get some brand reliability from the East. Since they are known for copying everything from wallets to clothes and god knows what else - surely they can do engines as well
O.S. engines can sell VZ-B/V01Bs for U$185 from HK (retail price) - surely with a cad drawing of a JP Black RX P5 motor for example, they can make new moulds and produce the same replica for the same price (or slightly higher) as their VZ-B/V01b line?
U$500-600 for an engine and U$200 for replacement P/S is outright robbery.
Comments?
01-26-2004, 11:53 PM
#2
There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.
I think you have the right idea, and its pretty much what everyone thinks should happen,or hopes would happen.
We dont live in a perfect world, and what you are saying needs a perfect world.
The truth is that its not as easy as you make it sound. Everything requires a large amount of money. I agree than in asia the needed molds and such can be done for a lot less, but its not for free. Its also very diffucult t break into the market and become profitable. I mean, Nova has built its reputation over a lot of years, to the point where other brands are as good ot better but most of us will still go with a Nova based engine because its done by them. Would you buy an engine done by me? I could copy all the desings in the world, but it doesnt mean that my engines will even run, let alone compete with stablished brands.
Theres a lot more to design than copying what someone else has done. I mean, look at just a few years ago, today's NS12s are far ahead of yesterday's MT12s. And that was done with major R&D. They didnt look at the MT12 and said we will change this here, and that there and it worked. No, the changes were made with years of knowledge and with tons of hours of testing. All this cost money and some companies just dont have it.
IMHO, you are making it sound a lot simpler and cheaper than it is. If were that easy everyone and their brother would be doing it.
01-27-2004, 01:22 AM
#3
I think you misundersood my point.
The idea of these asian manufacturers is not to design and R&D engines but to do what they do best - copycat design.
Anything that it close to the real thing but not that close that it will infringe international copyright laws.
This is obviously not a normal you and me job - its the engine companies that have to take the step up. I repeat - I didn't ask for an engine modification done by A person. I am concentrating on MASS market.
With regards to CNC mills for a few thousand dollars - I was referring to consumer or a small shop lathe connected to a Unix PC. It was simply a reference that these lathes can be bought these days at a very reasonable price - i.e. equipment is not a problematic factor to cut and mill engines.
Today's equipment are more than accurate enough to reproduce an exact working replica - with the size of these RC model motors - its not hard to have it laser scanned in 3D and have the model input inside a CAD program.
The idea was never to compete with Novarossi's line of motors - but to give a high performance, high reliability, ease of tuning modified motors which are (give or take) copies of, say, JP Black lines at a very reasonable price rance of $200-$300.
I'll give you a quick example:
* O.S. .21 VZ-B can be bought for U$185 in HK - this is retail price not wholesale.
* Take a look at the older V01B - still similar price (cheaper) but look at the engine's power and reliability. No question it puts out serious power and super reliability and easy to tune.
* Now look at the JP Black RX 21 P5 of engine, material wise - certain components are slightly different. Scan the JP engine + its components using 3D laser scanner - and have a CAD drawing out of it.
* Tell me O.S. could not make an exact copy of JP's work for the same price as its V01b/VZB line if O.S. use the same material as its V01B/VZB motors.
* O.S. have the tools & skill to do so. It can cut/mill its own engine to whatever way it likes. All it needs are NEW MOULDS - THATS IT.
* NO R&D are needed. O.S. can slightly modify various parts of the engine to make it their own specifications and still it will be legal to sell and have not broken any copyright issues.
* Bring those equipment to China/Taiwan and employ the workers there. Surely the price can only go down?
The O.S. example is just that - an example. I don't recommend them doing so - I prefer the other Asian manufacturer get their act together (i.e. Force engines) and have the slice of the pie.
Since China/Taiwan manufacturer's can't even design their own buggies and copy Kyosho's Inferno instead - why not take this method to their engine line?
Whatever new engine Novarossi produce, they produce something similar that can compete with it.
Sooner than later, Novarossi or JP will be forced to lower their exuberant prices as dollar to performance ratio. As who wants an engine that is probably only 5% better but cost twice as much?
The idea of these asian manufacturers is not to design and R&D engines but to do what they do best - copycat design.
Anything that it close to the real thing but not that close that it will infringe international copyright laws.
This is obviously not a normal you and me job - its the engine companies that have to take the step up. I repeat - I didn't ask for an engine modification done by A person. I am concentrating on MASS market.
With regards to CNC mills for a few thousand dollars - I was referring to consumer or a small shop lathe connected to a Unix PC. It was simply a reference that these lathes can be bought these days at a very reasonable price - i.e. equipment is not a problematic factor to cut and mill engines.
Today's equipment are more than accurate enough to reproduce an exact working replica - with the size of these RC model motors - its not hard to have it laser scanned in 3D and have the model input inside a CAD program.
The idea was never to compete with Novarossi's line of motors - but to give a high performance, high reliability, ease of tuning modified motors which are (give or take) copies of, say, JP Black lines at a very reasonable price rance of $200-$300.
I'll give you a quick example:
* O.S. .21 VZ-B can be bought for U$185 in HK - this is retail price not wholesale.
* Take a look at the older V01B - still similar price (cheaper) but look at the engine's power and reliability. No question it puts out serious power and super reliability and easy to tune.
* Now look at the JP Black RX 21 P5 of engine, material wise - certain components are slightly different. Scan the JP engine + its components using 3D laser scanner - and have a CAD drawing out of it.
* Tell me O.S. could not make an exact copy of JP's work for the same price as its V01b/VZB line if O.S. use the same material as its V01B/VZB motors.
* O.S. have the tools & skill to do so. It can cut/mill its own engine to whatever way it likes. All it needs are NEW MOULDS - THATS IT.
* NO R&D are needed. O.S. can slightly modify various parts of the engine to make it their own specifications and still it will be legal to sell and have not broken any copyright issues.
* Bring those equipment to China/Taiwan and employ the workers there. Surely the price can only go down?
The O.S. example is just that - an example. I don't recommend them doing so - I prefer the other Asian manufacturer get their act together (i.e. Force engines) and have the slice of the pie.
Since China/Taiwan manufacturer's can't even design their own buggies and copy Kyosho's Inferno instead - why not take this method to their engine line?
Whatever new engine Novarossi produce, they produce something similar that can compete with it.
Sooner than later, Novarossi or JP will be forced to lower their exuberant prices as dollar to performance ratio. As who wants an engine that is probably only 5% better but cost twice as much?
01-27-2004, 01:38 AM
#4
There are several reasons this has not already happened. But other than infringements you are forgetting that even changing the material alters how the engine performs.
Each engine is designed with a certain material and blueprint to obtain the desired effect. If you change anyone of these areas you alter the characteristics of the engine and it probably wouldnt produce the same qualities as the original.
Besides, I dont believe OS are completely interested in out and out race car engines. They have established themselves as one of the best aero engine producers and the car engines is a bonus. Probably the best OS car engine you will find is for the 1:8th Off-Road Buggies simply because they have the same running characteristics as an aero engine.
As for a small workshop cnc machine. I dont think you could pick up a new CNC Machine for under $25000 that would be capable of producing the high quality required for the performance you are talking about.
Each engine is designed with a certain material and blueprint to obtain the desired effect. If you change anyone of these areas you alter the characteristics of the engine and it probably wouldnt produce the same qualities as the original.
Besides, I dont believe OS are completely interested in out and out race car engines. They have established themselves as one of the best aero engine producers and the car engines is a bonus. Probably the best OS car engine you will find is for the 1:8th Off-Road Buggies simply because they have the same running characteristics as an aero engine.
As for a small workshop cnc machine. I dont think you could pick up a new CNC Machine for under $25000 that would be capable of producing the high quality required for the performance you are talking about.
01-27-2004, 01:54 AM
#5
Interesting point - in that case, if the same materials were to be used in the replica - you won't be looking at more than a U$50 hike in price which is already super generous at 30% extra cost being allowed.
Also, no need to make the engine pretty in terms of JP's anodizing the case and various other touches. Make the inside work - thats all that matters. As for the outside, it has to be clean and professional - just like any typical O.S. engine - standard finish.
With the O.S. example - I said that I didn't want them to change - but it was a simple model example that if a large company like O.S. can do it for the U$200-300 price range - surely the Asian companies are able to accomplish this feat for even less.
I was comparing off-road as an example as well. I am more concerned for the market to be broken in the 1/8th On-road arena as this is where the engines are most expensive.
Also, no need to make the engine pretty in terms of JP's anodizing the case and various other touches. Make the inside work - thats all that matters. As for the outside, it has to be clean and professional - just like any typical O.S. engine - standard finish.
With the O.S. example - I said that I didn't want them to change - but it was a simple model example that if a large company like O.S. can do it for the U$200-300 price range - surely the Asian companies are able to accomplish this feat for even less.
I was comparing off-road as an example as well. I am more concerned for the market to be broken in the 1/8th On-road arena as this is where the engines are most expensive.
01-27-2004, 02:00 AM
#6
Hopefully, the 1:8th on-road engine market will be broken very soon. It truely is the best class available. But copying is not the answer. Revolution - Not evolution.
Just take a look at our Palmaris .12 to see what I mean.
Just take a look at our Palmaris .12 to see what I mean.
01-27-2004, 02:08 AM
#7
When you get the coming STS 21 Buggy engine,you will forget this thread.
01-27-2004, 02:18 AM
#8
I am looking at a replica engine that yields power no more than 5% less than the JP line.
If this article is to be true, the performance difference would be too great and its not a direct competitor to JP themselves.
I'm not saying the STS engine are not good at all - it most likely is a good engine. But the point of the thread is to bring JP performance caliber motors in the U$200-300 range.
If this article is to be true, the performance difference would be too great and its not a direct competitor to JP themselves.
I'm not saying the STS engine are not good at all - it most likely is a good engine. But the point of the thread is to bring JP performance caliber motors in the U$200-300 range.
01-27-2004, 02:18 AM
#9
Looks good Dino. About time a new make was released to take on the off-road world. Lets hope it can do the same as the STS on-road engines.
Finally, someone to topple the OPS/Nova stronghold on 1:8th Off-Road Racing. You could nearly twist my arm into racing off-road again. Been a long time since I ran one of those (1991).
Whats your take on this new law for California regarding banning all 2-stoke engines. Are you guys going to jump on the 4-stroke band wagon or fight for the right to cheap and powerful motors instead of expensive chuggers.
Finally, someone to topple the OPS/Nova stronghold on 1:8th Off-Road Racing. You could nearly twist my arm into racing off-road again. Been a long time since I ran one of those (1991).
Whats your take on this new law for California regarding banning all 2-stoke engines. Are you guys going to jump on the 4-stroke band wagon or fight for the right to cheap and powerful motors instead of expensive chuggers.
01-27-2004, 03:17 AM
#10
Originally posted by gonsped
I am looking at a replica engine that yields power no more than 5% less than the JP line.
If this article is to be true, the performance difference would be too great and its not a direct competitor to JP themselves.
I'm not saying the STS engine are not good at all - it most likely is a good engine. But the point of the thread is to bring JP performance caliber motors in the U$200-300 range.
I am looking at a replica engine that yields power no more than 5% less than the JP line.
If this article is to be true, the performance difference would be too great and its not a direct competitor to JP themselves.
I'm not saying the STS engine are not good at all - it most likely is a good engine. But the point of the thread is to bring JP performance caliber motors in the U$200-300 range.
I can run STS to smoke any expensive modified engine. Why I can but someone can not? When someone can't win,they will start to blame his kit;engine;even radio system. After he change his equipment form this to that,they still believe that using the same equipment with champion's,you are half way there. Finally he buy the most expensive one and know the true problem is all on himself.
Why those champion engine is so expensive? The real reason is they have to sponsor many racers to keep the honor. Personnel expense cost much. It is all about marketing. When your engine win World Champion,would you still want to sell it with reasonable price? Think about it!
Of course I can sign with some great racers. Pay them to promote STS and try to win WORLDS. I can modify engine for them. Also rise the price up from $150 to $250. Is that what you want? I never want STS give me a champion engine to sell mass,I only want STS can supply me a engine which has reasonable and affordable price also competitively power. I have the same pain with you before I work for STS. That was why I stop my programer job to work for STS.(only half income compare to before)
In my opinion,those mfgs are killing themself slowly but they dosen't know. When the prices are higher and higher,many young boys(new blood) would rather play PC or TV GAME than R/C car. Our most competitor are not each other. The biggest competitor is virtual game market. When you hit any wall in PC Game,all that you need to do is.....reset it!cost?NO!
01-27-2004, 03:37 AM
#11
Muahhahahh! Since you work for STS - mind giving us RCTech folks some access to discounted motors??
Back to your point. STS obviously isn't targetting the upper end of the market. That is the only way to dethrone Novarossi/JP.
You may claim STS can smoke a JP but so far its just your claim. I am not saying you have no skill - you must have very good skill to claim so.
But on the track (forget sponsorship for the time being), it has been proven that JP is the fastest line of factory modified engines and they do give you that extra punch and screaming top end. Don't put in lack of driving skill in the equation. We are comparing engine to engine where driving skill used to control it will be more than ample - i.e. world champion standards.
With winning championships and charging top dollar for the engines thats the model Nova/JP has been adopting but guess what - not many people own a JP due to that high cost.
If I was in this line of business and I am O.S. engine (for example) - I would prefer to sell decent priced modified engines comparable to JP for $200-300 and sell MORE units and in the end, I get considerably more profit due to my greater turnover. In this situation, its a win-win scenario, you win the brand recognition of your engines and you win with the profits it generates.
Screw marketing - if your engine is THAT good and is damn affordable - it doesn't take long at all for word to get around.
Actually with the TV/PC game thing - thats true. My first hobby was nitro RC but because I didn't have a job that could afford running the hobby. My cars became expensive model on a stand. Now I have a decent paying job - I can afford to go back to this fun hobby again.
Back to your point. STS obviously isn't targetting the upper end of the market. That is the only way to dethrone Novarossi/JP.
You may claim STS can smoke a JP but so far its just your claim. I am not saying you have no skill - you must have very good skill to claim so.
But on the track (forget sponsorship for the time being), it has been proven that JP is the fastest line of factory modified engines and they do give you that extra punch and screaming top end. Don't put in lack of driving skill in the equation. We are comparing engine to engine where driving skill used to control it will be more than ample - i.e. world champion standards.
With winning championships and charging top dollar for the engines thats the model Nova/JP has been adopting but guess what - not many people own a JP due to that high cost.
If I was in this line of business and I am O.S. engine (for example) - I would prefer to sell decent priced modified engines comparable to JP for $200-300 and sell MORE units and in the end, I get considerably more profit due to my greater turnover. In this situation, its a win-win scenario, you win the brand recognition of your engines and you win with the profits it generates.
Screw marketing - if your engine is THAT good and is damn affordable - it doesn't take long at all for word to get around.
Actually with the TV/PC game thing - thats true. My first hobby was nitro RC but because I didn't have a job that could afford running the hobby. My cars became expensive model on a stand. Now I have a decent paying job - I can afford to go back to this fun hobby again.
01-27-2004, 06:07 AM
#12
I really have to disagree with you on this. JP were always quick but I dont think they were ever the best modded engine available and it was never actually proven as such (other than a couple of the .21 on-road engines). I believe the late Ron Paris prepped a far better modded engine and so did Mario Rossi.
As for STS. They have a huge following already and have produced some real good engines. Granted they may not be as fast on high end as other modded engines but then again you have to look a little further.
The STS is designed for ultimate torque to get best results around shorter twisty tracks whereas the JP is designed to produce high revs for the larger flowing European tracks. So in the right environment both engines will come into their own.
As for selling engines at $200 - $300 that can compare with the JP or other modded engines, that is already beginning. And you can be assured they are stock out of the box.
As for STS. They have a huge following already and have produced some real good engines. Granted they may not be as fast on high end as other modded engines but then again you have to look a little further.
The STS is designed for ultimate torque to get best results around shorter twisty tracks whereas the JP is designed to produce high revs for the larger flowing European tracks. So in the right environment both engines will come into their own.
As for selling engines at $200 - $300 that can compare with the JP or other modded engines, that is already beginning. And you can be assured they are stock out of the box.
01-27-2004, 07:20 AM
#13
Engines.
It is very interesting descusion is in here.
You guys are forgetting the fact in airmodeling and boating hobby. In 1970's Rossi and OPS was dominating and it was realy hard for avarage soviet union guy to buy one of those, but technology was available all over the place. So A lot hobby guy there stop chasing that expencive "mamas" and start making their own. It was long way before that guys proove they are realy good and look it what is happepening now. All champions in all classes in airmodeling are using engines produced in former soviet union. Even world record on control line .15 engine was set on "Irwine special" with all internal parts made in Russia.
All world champions for last years in "pilon" using Russian engines.
So you can name any of hobby beside RC cars and you will see what I am talking about. This is the reason why Rossi offer to one of the best engine desiner from Russia couple years ago to work together, but for some reason he refuse to do so.
In RC cars there is hole, for some reason RC cars isn't popular there and nobody was making any engines for this aplication. But now I activated all possible my connections and friends and we are working on all directions for RC cars.
We are working right now on .21 engine which will be made on the same concept as Palmaris PS12, also PS15 is almost done in design.
You guys are forgetting the fact in airmodeling and boating hobby. In 1970's Rossi and OPS was dominating and it was realy hard for avarage soviet union guy to buy one of those, but technology was available all over the place. So A lot hobby guy there stop chasing that expencive "mamas" and start making their own. It was long way before that guys proove they are realy good and look it what is happepening now. All champions in all classes in airmodeling are using engines produced in former soviet union. Even world record on control line .15 engine was set on "Irwine special" with all internal parts made in Russia.
All world champions for last years in "pilon" using Russian engines.
So you can name any of hobby beside RC cars and you will see what I am talking about. This is the reason why Rossi offer to one of the best engine desiner from Russia couple years ago to work together, but for some reason he refuse to do so.
In RC cars there is hole, for some reason RC cars isn't popular there and nobody was making any engines for this aplication. But now I activated all possible my connections and friends and we are working on all directions for RC cars.
We are working right now on .21 engine which will be made on the same concept as Palmaris PS12, also PS15 is almost done in design.
01-27-2004, 07:41 AM
#14
the only way that Nova based modifieds such as JP,Collari, M.rossi
prices will go down in price is if another engine manufacturer can
come up with a fast quality engine at a lower price. Ive seen
faster engines than the novabased mods ive mentioned but
haven't seen one that ran as consistent and have the quality
of the novamods out there.
prices will go down in price is if another engine manufacturer can
come up with a fast quality engine at a lower price. Ive seen
faster engines than the novabased mods ive mentioned but
haven't seen one that ran as consistent and have the quality
of the novamods out there.
01-27-2004, 09:17 AM
#15
What happened to the Richey engines that were supposed to be available soon?