NITRO ENGINES Top 3
10-28-2016, 06:18 AM
#31
It's easy to answer it folks. How many good engine factories are? The 3 Italian and a Japanese one? There you go, your top 3+1 honourable mention, maybe throw the FX in the mix too if you kick LM out of the question (I wouldn't, those Sirios EVO STI I have are tops).
The O.S. is the one I haven't had, I did an autopsy to an used blue head Vspec and found it had horrible crank pin and rod wear, the DLC crank is a requirement in those engines. Italian cranks have better wear characteristics I reckon.
The O.S. is the one I haven't had, I did an autopsy to an used blue head Vspec and found it had horrible crank pin and rod wear, the DLC crank is a requirement in those engines. Italian cranks have better wear characteristics I reckon.
10-28-2016, 07:49 AM
#32
Crank pin and rod wear has always been OS's Achilles heel.
But it's often accelerated by bad breakins, leaving a worn rod in the engine too long, and cold start ups. All newb problems, and OS might get stuck with more newbs as well.
On another note; Why can't Italian engines come with an OS carb? OS's are so great to tune, why not try to copy that?
But it's often accelerated by bad breakins, leaving a worn rod in the engine too long, and cold start ups. All newb problems, and OS might get stuck with more newbs as well.
On another note; Why can't Italian engines come with an OS carb? OS's are so great to tune, why not try to copy that?
10-28-2016, 08:10 AM
#33
Generally crank pin wear is not fatal. I have seen blue heads with huge amounts of wear that
still run fine. Obviosly its not an ideal situation. I personally think the wear had as much to do with the oil hole placement as anything. The Speed rods where alot better in that regard due
to a superior location for the oil hole.
As far as tuning ,alot of it comes from the hot P3 plugs. My Fusion engines tune alot different with a hot Picco plug vs a med Nova plug.
Several very good tuners i have talked to prefer the nova carb, but for almost everone else
the OS carb gets better results, especially when combined with the ultra hot plugs.
still run fine. Obviosly its not an ideal situation. I personally think the wear had as much to do with the oil hole placement as anything. The Speed rods where alot better in that regard due
to a superior location for the oil hole.
As far as tuning ,alot of it comes from the hot P3 plugs. My Fusion engines tune alot different with a hot Picco plug vs a med Nova plug.
Several very good tuners i have talked to prefer the nova carb, but for almost everone else
the OS carb gets better results, especially when combined with the ultra hot plugs.
10-28-2016, 08:17 AM
#34
bring back the rotary carb!!!! any brand engine would hold a tune helen keller could get right... stoooopid on road setups just dont hold up to off road...
just switch to brushless and scream.. BRAAAP...
just switch to brushless and scream.. BRAAAP...
10-28-2016, 08:24 AM
#35
In a personal opinion which I am allowed to have.. they are both Sh*t.
I went through 3-4 Werks in a year.
1 OS per year.. and it gets carried over to my other car for the next.
Lets not get into this Ron. We have been here before.
You are entitled to stand up for your brand. I would be worried if you didnt.
But from personal experience. I wouldn't recommend any other motor other than an OS/Bullitt etc
I went through 3-4 Werks in a year.
1 OS per year.. and it gets carried over to my other car for the next.
Lets not get into this Ron. We have been here before.
You are entitled to stand up for your brand. I would be worried if you didnt.
But from personal experience. I wouldn't recommend any other motor other than an OS/Bullitt etc
Bottom line though while it is very easy to make statements like that you, me and anyone that has been active in this hobby for any amount of time all know that nitro engines and off-road engine longevity superficially is primarily based on the ability of the user to tune the product properly and secondly by how effective filtration is (meaning how much dirt the engine ingests). So when I see stuff like that the first thing that comes to mind is that back when you were running our engines you probably were either just starting with nitro, were not very good at engine tuning and/or were just learning how to do it. A fair test is running a product back to back with a user of a similar level of experience, not comparing engine life results from for example a newbie level driver versus someone that has been racing/tuning engines for 4, 5 or 6 years. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I will put our engines longevity up against that of an OS engine any day and I'm so confident of it that if you say that you are willing to give things a fair shake and be 100% honest about things I'll send you a brand new engine and pipe for you to test for free. Break it in normally, tune it properly and race with it and then just report back on things.
thanks for the 'Ron-speak'..sortoff expected the essay going by the engine threads lol...still doesn't change the fact that my opinion of stuff coming out of that factory is forever tainted by the fact i got a NIB factory sealed b6 with a broken piston in it a few years back, warren and them were gracious enough to replace it for me with a free b5 pro...the same one that had a leaky front bearing and sucked in half of the track by race 4...ended up in the bin end inside someone else's Orion lol.anyway..thats in the past...i can just help ppl make better decisions and learn from my mistakes so to speak.
sorry to hijack the thread OP. i'm off
In any case I like to make sure that I address things properly and in detail. Moving on to your current post since I started in this industry and having worked with several different manufacturers I have never once personally seen or found an engine that came from the factory with a broken piston lol. I've heard people claim that theirs did and for some reason those people always seem to be ones that decided to take the engine apart and inspect the internals for debris before running the engine. Although they never admit to doing it some of them seem to forget to put the piston to TDC before removing or installing the back plate, which is the one and only way that you can break a piston skirt lol. Either way based on your statement our importer at the time took care of it and actually gave you a higher end engine model, something that I would think most people (except for you it seems) would be happy with!As far as the front bearing leaking. That obviously is something that can only ever happen with our engines which is why none of the shops or on-line re-sellers stock and sell replacement front bearings for OS engines........
Or Picco engines, or Novarossi engines or every other brand of engine on the market 
. The real problem is that today’s engines are simply so powerful that the small diameter front bearings are simply getting beat to death and are becoming a weak link. We (all of us manufacturers) really need to get together and agree to make a change to the exterior case dimensions of our engines (which are pretty much industry standard) so that we can start using the same size bearing in the front as we use in the rear. If we were all to do something like that bearing failures would for the most part be a thing of the past.
Last edited by Werks; 10-28-2016 at 09:15 AM.
10-28-2016, 08:31 AM
#36
I couldn't care less about any of the above back and forth. BUT, I do very much respect what Ron said about holding off on paying for big name sponsored drivers, and that meaning better prices for the customers.
I don't care how good OS or Reds are. I'm not paying $400+ for an engine. Ever. Period. And judging by all the "why is racing declining?" threads in the last couple years, I would venture to say I'm not the only one who thinks that way. This small core of people who rub their hands every time a big race comes around, and get all excited about it as if what Tessmann or whoever drives has anything to do with the experience of any ordinary club racer ANYWHERE... - these are the same guys who rush out to buy Speeds. And create the culture in which people feel pressured to all do the same.
I wish more companies had the mentality of Werks in that regard. The pros? Who gives a crxx? And if there were more companies like that, there'd be more people racing I bet..
I don't care how good OS or Reds are. I'm not paying $400+ for an engine. Ever. Period. And judging by all the "why is racing declining?" threads in the last couple years, I would venture to say I'm not the only one who thinks that way. This small core of people who rub their hands every time a big race comes around, and get all excited about it as if what Tessmann or whoever drives has anything to do with the experience of any ordinary club racer ANYWHERE... - these are the same guys who rush out to buy Speeds. And create the culture in which people feel pressured to all do the same.
I wish more companies had the mentality of Werks in that regard. The pros? Who gives a crxx? And if there were more companies like that, there'd be more people racing I bet..
So much with engines is based on so many different factors that could create the situations that people have found themselves in with breakdowns etc.
I am sure you will find people with great experiences with any type of engine, and those with bad experiences. How much of it is errors we have made? None of us will be honest enough to admit it.
10-28-2016, 09:04 AM
#37
Actually my first engine was an O.S. RG in disguise. It was the Kyosho GX21 engine.
Perfect engine for a noob.
The Vspec was the standard, rod seemed original one so I can undestand it got to I think .7mm of difference rod to pin. On the other hand my RB square stroke engines have minimal wear on the hands of noobs and badly treated throughout their lifes. Carbs I would rate the O.S. as better, works great, easy to tune and orings last well. So yeah, a NR with O.S. carb would be golden. Got a junk NR, will submit the autopsy here to all look at wear and compare to their engines.
Perfect engine for a noob.
The Vspec was the standard, rod seemed original one so I can undestand it got to I think .7mm of difference rod to pin. On the other hand my RB square stroke engines have minimal wear on the hands of noobs and badly treated throughout their lifes. Carbs I would rate the O.S. as better, works great, easy to tune and orings last well. So yeah, a NR with O.S. carb would be golden. Got a junk NR, will submit the autopsy here to all look at wear and compare to their engines.
Crank pin and rod wear has always been OS's Achilles heel.
But it's often accelerated by bad breakins, leaving a worn rod in the engine too long, and cold start ups. All newb problems, and OS might get stuck with more newbs as well.
On another note; Why can't Italian engines come with an OS carb? OS's are so great to tune, why not try to copy that?
But it's often accelerated by bad breakins, leaving a worn rod in the engine too long, and cold start ups. All newb problems, and OS might get stuck with more newbs as well.
On another note; Why can't Italian engines come with an OS carb? OS's are so great to tune, why not try to copy that?
10-28-2016, 12:49 PM
#38
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (7)
From track talk, the majority of werks engine users have good things to say. "For the money they can't be beat". I run a WE alpha that doesn't give me any problems (I'm just past the 4 gallon mark) in a truggy. The power is just as good as the top 4 , run time is great, holds a tune well and is priced right w/ by far the best support threw Lutz. I won't buy a OS because of the price not because of performance. I wouldn't mind trying a rebadged OS but with my Alpha treating me so well I couldn't see buying another engine. I basically learned how to tune w/ this Lutz engine. I ran about a gallon threw it after break in w/ a very lean LSN and a real fat HSN but it still has good compression and the bottom end power is still there. I've seen a lot of engines w/ bad rep's perform very well.
10-28-2016, 09:05 PM
#39
I'd love to test one of the 7 port Werks engines. I've been dying to for a while now. Jones'in for another 7 port mill, but afraid to leave OS and experiment again.
But I think the Werks can use OS P3,P4 plugs right? Or are they the Italian taper?
But I think the Werks can use OS P3,P4 plugs right? Or are they the Italian taper?
10-28-2016, 10:01 PM
#40
Correct it is a personal opinion which you are 100% entitled to have. However when discussing things and making statements a certain level of I guess you could call it honesty/disclosure is also needed. When you say that you went through 3-4 Werks engines per year and you now go through only 1 OS engine per year I would call BS on that if you are alluding that is solely based off of build or component quality. Typical engine life for our products at full race tune in the hands of an experienced driver and tuner i.e. Kortz is 6-9 gallons. I highly doubt that you are getting 24-36 gallons out of a single OS engine so your numbers are imho skewed.
Bottom line though while it is very easy to make statements like that you, me and anyone that has been active in this hobby for any amount of time all know that nitro engines and off-road engine longevity superficially is primarily based on the ability of the user to tune the product properly and secondly by how effective filtration is (meaning how much dirt the engine ingests). So when I see stuff like that the first thing that comes to mind is that back when you were running our engines you probably were either just starting with nitro, were not very good at engine tuning and/or were just learning how to do it. A fair test is running a product back to back with a user of a similar level of experience, not comparing engine life results from for example a newbie level driver versus someone that has been racing/tuning engines for 4, 5 or 6 years. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I will put our engines longevity up against that of an OS engine any day and I'm so confident of it that if you say that you are willing to give things a fair shake and be 100% honest about things I'll send you a brand new engine and pipe for you to test for free. Break it in normally, tune it properly and race with it and then just report back on things.
You should expect essays, when you are debating something it's kind of hard to address someone’s statements with a single sentence In any case I like to make sure that I address things properly and in detail. Moving on to your current post since I started in this industry and having worked with several different manufacturers I have never once personally seen or found an engine that came from the factory with a broken piston lol. I've heard people claim that theirs did and for some reason those people always seem to be ones that decided to take the engine apart and inspect the internals for debris before running the engine. Although they never admit to doing it some of them seem to forget to put the piston to TDC before removing or installing the back plate, which is the one and only way that you can break a piston skirt lol. Either way based on your statement our importer at the time took care of it and actually gave you a higher end engine model, something that I would think most people (except for you it seems) would be happy with!
As far as the front bearing leaking. That obviously is something that can only ever happen with our engines which is why none of the shops or on-line re-sellers stock and sell replacement front bearings for OS engines........ Or Picco engines, or Novarossi engines or every other brand of engine on the market . The real problem is that today’s engines are simply so powerful that the small diameter front bearings are simply getting beat to death and are becoming a weak link. We (all of us manufacturers) really need to get together and agree to make a change to the exterior case dimensions of our engines (which are pretty much industry standard) so that we can start using the same size bearing in the front as we use in the rear. If we were all to do something like that bearing failures would for the most part be a thing of the past.
Bottom line though while it is very easy to make statements like that you, me and anyone that has been active in this hobby for any amount of time all know that nitro engines and off-road engine longevity superficially is primarily based on the ability of the user to tune the product properly and secondly by how effective filtration is (meaning how much dirt the engine ingests). So when I see stuff like that the first thing that comes to mind is that back when you were running our engines you probably were either just starting with nitro, were not very good at engine tuning and/or were just learning how to do it. A fair test is running a product back to back with a user of a similar level of experience, not comparing engine life results from for example a newbie level driver versus someone that has been racing/tuning engines for 4, 5 or 6 years. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I will put our engines longevity up against that of an OS engine any day and I'm so confident of it that if you say that you are willing to give things a fair shake and be 100% honest about things I'll send you a brand new engine and pipe for you to test for free. Break it in normally, tune it properly and race with it and then just report back on things.
You should expect essays, when you are debating something it's kind of hard to address someone’s statements with a single sentence
In any case I like to make sure that I address things properly and in detail. Moving on to your current post since I started in this industry and having worked with several different manufacturers I have never once personally seen or found an engine that came from the factory with a broken piston lol. I've heard people claim that theirs did and for some reason those people always seem to be ones that decided to take the engine apart and inspect the internals for debris before running the engine. Although they never admit to doing it some of them seem to forget to put the piston to TDC before removing or installing the back plate, which is the one and only way that you can break a piston skirt lol. Either way based on your statement our importer at the time took care of it and actually gave you a higher end engine model, something that I would think most people (except for you it seems) would be happy with!As far as the front bearing leaking. That obviously is something that can only ever happen with our engines which is why none of the shops or on-line re-sellers stock and sell replacement front bearings for OS engines........
Or Picco engines, or Novarossi engines or every other brand of engine on the market . The real problem is that today’s engines are simply so powerful that the small diameter front bearings are simply getting beat to death and are becoming a weak link. We (all of us manufacturers) really need to get together and agree to make a change to the exterior case dimensions of our engines (which are pretty much industry standard) so that we can start using the same size bearing in the front as we use in the rear. If we were all to do something like that bearing failures would for the most part be a thing of the past.
10-31-2016, 02:55 AM
#42
I will put our engines longevity up against that of an OS engine any day and I'm so confident of it that if you say that you are willing to give things a fair shake and be 100% honest about things I'll send you a brand new engine and pipe for you to test for free. Break it in normally, tune it properly and race with it and then just report back on things.
I'm not into these type freebie things as a distributor myself.
But I will take you up on your offer. Maybe your new carbs are a lot better. Maybe the new motors have really stepped up to the plate. If you really feel strong about this and have confidence in your product,
I will take you up on your offer. You still have my shipping address I believe, It hasn't changed. (same place you sent the fuel order,don't use the PoBox one though) Have a look at your old database - CuziRacing
Would be interesting to see if this actually happens.
10-31-2016, 04:18 AM
#43
Very well said!!!! The problem as I see it is that everyone is entitled to an opinion regarding engines. Therefore, it is a topic that should be objective and not bashing one brand over another.
So much with engines is based on so many different factors that could create the situations that people have found themselves in with breakdowns etc.
I am sure you will find people with great experiences with any type of engine, and those with bad experiences. How much of it is errors we have made? None of us will be honest enough to admit it.
So much with engines is based on so many different factors that could create the situations that people have found themselves in with breakdowns etc.
I am sure you will find people with great experiences with any type of engine, and those with bad experiences. How much of it is errors we have made? None of us will be honest enough to admit it.
I am honest enough to admit it. I had a b2 and the skirt broke, I asked Ron what would cause it and he told me that I didn't have the piston up top when I took the back plate off. Fair enough, I didn't, but...... Ron did offer me a replacement at cost..... I like werks as Ron does stand by his engines, that is also why I run Fusion as Monty is another that stands behind his engines and doesn't try to push them on anyone. Thats why I gave Fusion a try it was cheap and I saw great customer service and the engines in my books are tops, last long, run great and hold a tune, but again customer support is what matters most to me.... Spending $500 on a cody king worlds engine only to have it run like crap from the get go and no support was crazy.....
10-31-2016, 07:07 AM
#44
i sold my old ass original b6(its atleast seven years old) to a local racer and he loves it, put a few gallons through it and wants to pinch it and keep running it.
My os experience is limited to the original vzb vspec and vzrII and protek samurai. the vzb and vzr lasted maybe 2.5 gallons before the bearings flaked all the chrome off and ruined the motors(back in 2006). the samurai survived an airfilter falling off and still runs after a good cleaning but i wont risk it being my "race"motor.
Ive got 5 or 6 nova motors that all run like tops and ive never had an issue with, the keep off 7 and keep off 4 are the only higher end novas. the rest are under 200usd.
Im cheap and ill never be the"fast guy" at anything more than a club race, so why spend 400+ on a motor?
My os experience is limited to the original vzb vspec and vzrII and protek samurai. the vzb and vzr lasted maybe 2.5 gallons before the bearings flaked all the chrome off and ruined the motors(back in 2006). the samurai survived an airfilter falling off and still runs after a good cleaning but i wont risk it being my "race"motor.
Ive got 5 or 6 nova motors that all run like tops and ive never had an issue with, the keep off 7 and keep off 4 are the only higher end novas. the rest are under 200usd.
Im cheap and ill never be the"fast guy" at anything more than a club race, so why spend 400+ on a motor?
10-31-2016, 05:37 PM
#45
Assumptions normally end up being wrong. Maybe I was in experienced maybe I wasn't.
I'm not into these type freebie things as a distributor myself.
But I will take you up on your offer. Maybe your new carbs are a lot better. Maybe the new motors have really stepped up to the plate. If you really feel strong about this and have confidence in your product,
I will take you up on your offer. You still have my shipping address I believe, It hasn't changed. (same place you sent the fuel order,don't use the PoBox one though) Have a look at your old database - CuziRacing
Would be interesting to see if this actually happens.
I'm not into these type freebie things as a distributor myself.
But I will take you up on your offer. Maybe your new carbs are a lot better. Maybe the new motors have really stepped up to the plate. If you really feel strong about this and have confidence in your product,
I will take you up on your offer. You still have my shipping address I believe, It hasn't changed. (same place you sent the fuel order,don't use the PoBox one though) Have a look at your old database - CuziRacing
Would be interesting to see if this actually happens.
I checked our database but we got a new system a little while ago so if you would please PM me your name & address and let me know what size tracks you normally race on (small to medium or medium to large) and I'll send you out one of our engines and a pipe to test. Again the only thing that I ask is that you take the time to break it in properly, give it a fair shake with testing and then let me know how it performs/what your thoughts are.
I am honest enough to admit it. I had a b2 and the skirt broke, I asked Ron what would cause it and he told me that I didn't have the piston up top when I took the back plate off. Fair enough, I didn't, but...... Ron did offer me a replacement at cost..... I like werks as Ron does stand by his engines, that is also why I run Fusion as Monty is another that stands behind his engines and doesn't try to push them on anyone. Thats why I gave Fusion a try it was cheap and I saw great customer service and the engines in my books are tops, last long, run great and hold a tune, but again customer support is what matters most to me.... Spending $500 on a cody king worlds engine only to have it run like crap from the get go and no support was crazy.....
i sold my old ass original b6(its atleast seven years old) to a local racer and he loves it, put a few gallons through it and wants to pinch it and keep running it.
My os experience is limited to the original vzb vspec and vzrII and protek samurai. the vzb and vzr lasted maybe 2.5 gallons before the bearings flaked all the chrome off and ruined the motors(back in 2006). the samurai survived an airfilter falling off and still runs after a good cleaning but i wont risk it being my "race"motor.
Ive got 5 or 6 nova motors that all run like tops and ive never had an issue with, the keep off 7 and keep off 4 are the only higher end novas. the rest are under 200usd.
Im cheap and ill never be the"fast guy" at anything more than a club race, so why spend 400+ on a motor?
My os experience is limited to the original vzb vspec and vzrII and protek samurai. the vzb and vzr lasted maybe 2.5 gallons before the bearings flaked all the chrome off and ruined the motors(back in 2006). the samurai survived an airfilter falling off and still runs after a good cleaning but i wont risk it being my "race"motor.
Ive got 5 or 6 nova motors that all run like tops and ive never had an issue with, the keep off 7 and keep off 4 are the only higher end novas. the rest are under 200usd.
Im cheap and ill never be the"fast guy" at anything more than a club race, so why spend 400+ on a motor?
