Drivers in the Know . . .
02-05-2006, 02:50 PM
#1
Drivers in the Know . . .
There are a few of us "southern" racers that want and need to "progress" in our driving skills. I am most definitely one of them as my driviing totally sucked this weekend at the ECT, worse than ever before, and has made me think seriously about finding a different hobby. I was making great improvements over the summer and now I am sliding backward rapidly. Another racer approached me regarding a few of us getting a "sportsman" buggy class together, as he had been told the the way to really improve is to drive buggy. "Sportsman" class, as we wouldn't want to run with the fast 2-wheel guys (yes, I have heard that racing with the fast guys teaches you), but we just need to get some practical experience running in race conditions without having to constantly pull over or feel like we are in the way all the time). I have heard for years that driving buggy (or onroad) would help improve skills. I have an "old" B2 buggy; this other racer just got a B4.
We were talking together and wondering if setup tips work the same for all vehicles in things like shock location, chassis ride height, etc. In other words, when a setup sheet or manufacturer tells you that moving the shocks one direction or another will do this or that, etc. does it mean that it works the same for truck and buggy overall, Associated and Losi, or is it different for each make and model? It seems to me it should be the same, with the exception, of course, of springs, pistons and shock oil due to the weight of the vehicle, tire size and what motor you are using. Which setup settings are universal, if any? Also, if taper pins work best for trucks, does that mean that it might be the same for buggies, or is it like comparing apples to oranges?
Also, is it futile to try this if the vehicle is older, or can a person get a benefit from any buggy regardless of model and age? I drive a LOSI truck, but would be trying to drive an Associated B2.
. When I first got the B2, I liked it, but only got it for playing around - my race vehicle was always a truck. I used to run it with the rear shocks laid down and the dog bones would fall out on big jumps. We walked into Associated when we were down there and they said "don't use that hole". (Well, then don't put it there!) Anyway, I always liked the way it drove with that shock position, but had to change it. After that it was pushy. I have never been overly fond of bugges, but am now wanting to learn to drive it to hopefully improve with my truck later.
So, do the above adjustments work across the board, truck or buggy, despite manufacturer, and can any benefit be derived from driving an "antique" B2? I don't want to put any money into it as far as modification. My husband does have a Kinwald edition, but that one is really pushy too. But then we don't know anything about setups for bugges.
Diane
We were talking together and wondering if setup tips work the same for all vehicles in things like shock location, chassis ride height, etc. In other words, when a setup sheet or manufacturer tells you that moving the shocks one direction or another will do this or that, etc. does it mean that it works the same for truck and buggy overall, Associated and Losi, or is it different for each make and model? It seems to me it should be the same, with the exception, of course, of springs, pistons and shock oil due to the weight of the vehicle, tire size and what motor you are using. Which setup settings are universal, if any? Also, if taper pins work best for trucks, does that mean that it might be the same for buggies, or is it like comparing apples to oranges?
Also, is it futile to try this if the vehicle is older, or can a person get a benefit from any buggy regardless of model and age? I drive a LOSI truck, but would be trying to drive an Associated B2.
. When I first got the B2, I liked it, but only got it for playing around - my race vehicle was always a truck. I used to run it with the rear shocks laid down and the dog bones would fall out on big jumps. We walked into Associated when we were down there and they said "don't use that hole". (Well, then don't put it there!) Anyway, I always liked the way it drove with that shock position, but had to change it. After that it was pushy. I have never been overly fond of bugges, but am now wanting to learn to drive it to hopefully improve with my truck later. So, do the above adjustments work across the board, truck or buggy, despite manufacturer, and can any benefit be derived from driving an "antique" B2? I don't want to put any money into it as far as modification. My husband does have a Kinwald edition, but that one is really pushy too. But then we don't know anything about setups for bugges.
Diane
02-05-2006, 05:25 PM
#2
when i first started off road i came from a on road background, running on road will destroy your off road skills. (most of the time) as far as manufactures setups, try something interesting, get a b-4 manual and a xxx manual, they don't agree on what different changes do, one book says moving the shock in does x, the other other tells you to move it out to get the same result, when i first got my b-4 i thought it sucked as a car, that is until i set it up using a losi book. then it was perfect, and i do mean perfect. racing is mostly mental, not car or setup or equipment. the bigger races we tend to "freak out" more before and during the race. even the race director plays a big part of our driving believe it our not. we can be crusing along just fine, but when the race director says our name or we hear were in first or on a tq pace, we often bone a pipe right after that. i used to tell scotty to shut up and don't tell me that stuff, he laughed and said i had to get used to it, i've learned to turn off the RD's voice when racing. (most of the time). i agree spending most of your time pulling over sucks, i still remember doing it. but you have to learn to jump on the wake of the faster driver even if its for a corner or two, then it will be three, then six, then its you thier pulling over for. good luck with your racing, and remember winning isn't everything, it took a while for me to learn, but when you forget about the winning and whos beating you or who you are beating and your just there to hang out, tell jokes, and have a good time with old friends and new ones. its a whole lot more fun.
02-05-2006, 06:04 PM
#3
Thanks, TurtleMaster. Interesting insight into what the manufacturers tell you, as I have found that to be true also. The Losi manual tells you one thing and then another detailed setup chart I have tells you just the opposite. It is really hard when you are trying to learn how to set up versus just being told to do something. I also thought I was one of the few that choked when I was in the lead. Last summer I made great strides because I was running competitively and could be leading and didn't choke when my name was mentioned - rare for me. I really thought I was finally "breaking through". Raced more often also, though. Now I'm depressed because I am back at square one. Actually, I am not trying to win all the time, or I guess even once in awhile, because even if I had the ability, I don't have the "checkbook". But, I just want to QUIT BEATING MYSELF. That's my main goal, just to run my best race, and yes, to run competitively. I watch my laps and lap times moreso than my finishing position so I can work for consistency. I got pretty decent at consistency last summer. I am thrilled when I go up a lap, or even if I am able to finish on the lead lap, which I was doing last summer, even along with Don Skaggs. But now I feel like I belong back in Novice. I am in my own way. I guess maybe it doesn't help that we have no local tracks anymore to practice at. I don't run for weeks at a time, but I don't want to use that as an excuse. That's why we come up to 4 Seasons, but we can't afford to do that all the time with gas the price it is. Peel It is totally out, and after a fashion, so is Tacoma - mostly because of a long-term injury that I have. Can't do the tall stairs at Tacoma.
It was interesting to hear that on-road screws you up, just the opposite of what I had heard years ago, although maybe because now on-road electric is 4-wheel drive. Before it was pan cars with direct drive and they were a handful. Thanks for your insigiht, I appreciate it very much.
Diane
It was interesting to hear that on-road screws you up, just the opposite of what I had heard years ago, although maybe because now on-road electric is 4-wheel drive. Before it was pan cars with direct drive and they were a handful. Thanks for your insigiht, I appreciate it very much.
Diane
02-05-2006, 06:23 PM
#4
Question`s
Which ride to learn with to get the best results ?
Best way to learn is to practice, No truck or buggy can replace the experience you get from working hard at practice....
Sure some will tell you buggy`s will help you more than truck`s...Yet, its the practice with either one that makes the real differents in improving your skills....
Are set-up`s for one car the same as the other`s ?
Yes , they all work exactly the same ....
So what you learn from one can be transfere to the other ...
Same goes for buggys compared to trucks ...
They both respond to changes in supension the same way...
EVEN On-Road sedans follow the same laws in how they respond to a camber changes or spring changes, ect...
Anti-squat & supension geometry theory`s has no exclusive on the brand of car you are running....
So what works for a Ae works the same as for the Losi, ect .....
Tires...
Usually what works for trucks works for the buggy`s cus tire manufactures make the same stlye tires for both rides....
Can you gain skills the same with a older buggy verses a newer style buggy ?
Yes, you can gain the same skills with either one, its just easier to drive with the newer models because of their advance design....
How much car do you really need to advance your skills ?
For the novice , no fancy ride with all the eye candy blue parts will be helpfull in how fast you go..
In fact, a slower ride will be the best choice for a novice..
Easy driving does not always go with the fastest ride..
In fact, going faster is just gona make it a lot harder for a novice....
How to handle getting out of the way of faster car`s and their driver`s ...
If you R not having fun because you are always pulling over & getting upset with the faster driver complaining in the class your racing...
Get out of that class !
You need to stay where you are having the best fun first !
If thats novice , thats where you should continue to race untill the race director says different....
Skip the ego thing , stay where you are having the most fun first !
Hope this helps....
BDW Off-Road or On-Road... Both work together to improve your ability`s...
No way does one interfere with the other in your quest for gaining skills ...
I`v race both back to back , They are different cars , yet its the same skills you are learning...
Noway you can convince me they hurt one or the other ..
Its the practice you do with either that will make the bigger differents...
Sure if you only run one ride all the time switching will be tuffer..
same goes if you only run a truck than switch to buggy...
practice with both on every week, you will drive both with similar skill...
Which ride to learn with to get the best results ?
Best way to learn is to practice, No truck or buggy can replace the experience you get from working hard at practice....
Sure some will tell you buggy`s will help you more than truck`s...Yet, its the practice with either one that makes the real differents in improving your skills....
Are set-up`s for one car the same as the other`s ?
Yes , they all work exactly the same ....
So what you learn from one can be transfere to the other ...
Same goes for buggys compared to trucks ...
They both respond to changes in supension the same way...
EVEN On-Road sedans follow the same laws in how they respond to a camber changes or spring changes, ect...
Anti-squat & supension geometry theory`s has no exclusive on the brand of car you are running....
So what works for a Ae works the same as for the Losi, ect .....
Tires...
Usually what works for trucks works for the buggy`s cus tire manufactures make the same stlye tires for both rides....
Can you gain skills the same with a older buggy verses a newer style buggy ?
Yes, you can gain the same skills with either one, its just easier to drive with the newer models because of their advance design....
How much car do you really need to advance your skills ?
For the novice , no fancy ride with all the eye candy blue parts will be helpfull in how fast you go..
In fact, a slower ride will be the best choice for a novice..
Easy driving does not always go with the fastest ride..
In fact, going faster is just gona make it a lot harder for a novice....
How to handle getting out of the way of faster car`s and their driver`s ...
If you R not having fun because you are always pulling over & getting upset with the faster driver complaining in the class your racing...
Get out of that class !
You need to stay where you are having the best fun first !
If thats novice , thats where you should continue to race untill the race director says different....
Skip the ego thing , stay where you are having the most fun first !
Hope this helps....
BDW Off-Road or On-Road... Both work together to improve your ability`s...
No way does one interfere with the other in your quest for gaining skills ...
I`v race both back to back , They are different cars , yet its the same skills you are learning...
Noway you can convince me they hurt one or the other ..
Its the practice you do with either that will make the bigger differents...
Sure if you only run one ride all the time switching will be tuffer..
same goes if you only run a truck than switch to buggy...
practice with both on every week, you will drive both with similar skill...
Last edited by Wild Cherry; 02-05-2006 at 06:34 PM.
02-05-2006, 06:26 PM
#5
no problem, and yes, with todays sedans, the driving sytle doesn't fit well with off road
02-05-2006, 06:48 PM
#6
Diane, I gota admit , 4 -season`s stair`s are about best of all the Off-road tracks for you when it comes to climbing stairs...
But ...
SIR has only a few steps for you to climb as well , something you should consider...
But ...
SIR has only a few steps for you to climb as well , something you should consider...
02-05-2006, 07:27 PM
#7
Originally Posted by LadiesFirst
Thanks, TurtleMaster. Interesting insight into what the manufacturers tell you, as I have found that to be true also. The Losi manual tells you one thing and then another detailed setup chart I have tells you just the opposite. It is really hard when you are trying to learn how to set up versus just being told to do something. I also thought I was one of the few that choked when I was in the lead. Last summer I made great strides because I was running competitively and could be leading and didn't choke when my name was mentioned - rare for me. I really thought I was finally "breaking through". Raced more often also, though. Now I'm depressed because I am back at square one. Actually, I am not trying to win all the time, or I guess even once in awhile, because even if I had the ability, I don't have the "checkbook". But, I just want to QUIT BEATING MYSELF. That's my main goal, just to run my best race, and yes, to run competitively. I watch my laps and lap times moreso than my finishing position so I can work for consistency. I got pretty decent at consistency last summer. I am thrilled when I go up a lap, or even if I am able to finish on the lead lap, which I was doing last summer, even along with Don Skaggs. But now I feel like I belong back in Novice. I am in my own way. I guess maybe it doesn't help that we have no local tracks anymore to practice at. I don't run for weeks at a time, but I don't want to use that as an excuse. That's why we come up to 4 Seasons, but we can't afford to do that all the time with gas the price it is. Peel It is totally out, and after a fashion, so is Tacoma - mostly because of a long-term injury that I have. Can't do the tall stairs at Tacoma.
It was interesting to hear that on-road screws you up, just the opposite of what I had heard years ago, although maybe because now on-road electric is 4-wheel drive. Before it was pan cars with direct drive and they were a handful. Thanks for your insigiht, I appreciate it very much.
Diane
It was interesting to hear that on-road screws you up, just the opposite of what I had heard years ago, although maybe because now on-road electric is 4-wheel drive. Before it was pan cars with direct drive and they were a handful. Thanks for your insigiht, I appreciate it very much.
Diane
02-05-2006, 07:33 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Get out of that class !
You need to stay where you are having the best fun first !
If thats novice , thats where you should continue to race untill the race director says different....
Skip the ego thing , stay where you are having the most fun first !
diane, i gave you my opinion on the on road thing, now you have a differnent one, ask around, call trcr talk to the world class racers they will tell you.
02-05-2006, 07:36 PM
#9
Its was`nt as good you saying a Losi behaves totally different as a Ae with supension adjustments...
World class that one ....
World class that one ....
02-05-2006, 08:01 PM
#10
I think onroad (1/12th for me) improves your concentration and reflexes, but it's true that the techniques it teaches you don't seem to work offroad. It probably depends on what needs the most improvement. For me, it was concentration and reflexes, so I feel onroad helped my overall skills.
...just my take.
...just my take.
02-05-2006, 08:05 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Its was`nt as good you saying a Losi behaves totally different as a Ae with supension adjustments...
World class that one ....
World class that one ....
i never said the losi behaves totally different then a ae with the same adjustments
what i said was, compare the manuals, in ae manual it says moving the shock out does X, in the losi manual it says moving the shock out does Y. and i'm just using the shock as a example, in fact it may not have been the shock adjustment it may have been a camber link adjustment. talk to chris or scott about it, i know you respect thier words and they will tell you the same.
i also went on to say that when setting up "MY" b-4 using the ae manual it sucks, but using the losi manual it was perfect.
and the diane agreed that she had noticed the same thing.
world class enough for you.....
02-05-2006, 08:18 PM
#12
however i do agree with dp on the 1/12 on road, 1/12 scale is a finesse driving skill just like off road, where as the sedan is more hammer down style
02-05-2006, 09:13 PM
#13
well diane i must say that i have been to the point of giving up myself 
,
but the discouragement goes away when you feel like you have accomplished something that you have set out to . there is no setup in the world on any car at anytime that can take the place of regular , thought inducing , condusive, constructive practice sessions (preferrably with one of our local pros around the area).
see ya next time , HOUSTON
,but the discouragement goes away when you feel like you have accomplished something that you have set out to
. there is no setup in the world on any car at anytime that can take the place of regular , thought inducing , condusive, constructive practice sessions (preferrably with one of our local pros around the area). see ya next time , HOUSTON
02-05-2006, 09:23 PM
#14
Diane ,you started a monster ....
These guys will "kill" to help you get more out of this sport...
Most of all the fun !
So don`t be shy ....
BDW
Remember me, The guy with the camera ?
I`m
The cake bandit...
with the Brushless get away ... He !
Most of all the fun !
So don`t be shy ....
BDW
Remember me, The guy with the camera ?
I`m
The cake bandit...
with the Brushless get away ... He !
02-05-2006, 11:23 PM
#15
Thank you everyone. I do know that regular "condusive thoughtful practice" as Monty says is the most important thing. But I also know that a lot of the trucks have good setups too. Together, they make a complete package. But I thought the buggies were touchier so a driver might learn better control. I know that before I had to switch to the Super Rooster (reversible) speed control due to not being able to corner my own car during practice, I had a Tekin, I think it was a 411G (forward only). However, it was extremely touchy in that it gave me full throttle before half trigger. No amount of adjusting would change that, believe me, I tried and so did everybody else. I used that speed control for years and did learn to drive it that way, although slick dry tracks were a particular challenge and I probably didn't do as well. Getting used to the Novack was another matter altogether as it seemed very mungy and I had to be heavier handed with it compared to the Tekin. So I have kind of been at both ends with the speed controls. I wonder if the new generation speed control (G10 and newer) really do offer that much more. I do agree that having the best stuff absolutely does not ensure that you will be a good driver, but if you have the potential to be a good driver, it sure could help. I have been told by one driver I really respect that the G10 can be adjusted to accommodate the track conditions - but then again, I believe you still have to know what you are doing.
I really appreciate all the different opinions here and they are all helpful. David, thank you for your offer and I am very open to suggestions - and I would not be offended if it regards my driving style - I just want to learn. But, frankly, it's hard to imagine you having that bad a day. I would be happy with your worst day!!
Diane
I really appreciate all the different opinions here and they are all helpful. David, thank you for your offer and I am very open to suggestions - and I would not be offended if it regards my driving style - I just want to learn. But, frankly, it's hard to imagine you having that bad a day. I would be happy with your worst day!!
Diane