R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro On-Road

Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-11-2017, 12:44 AM   #1
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default GT kickups

Gents,

Im searching for the kickup values of all the common GT kits in order to get a better view on the total caster on the various kits. The steering knuckles options / hopups or suspensions arms (pivot ball system) come in various degrees not including the kickup offcourse. I know the bulkhead suspension bars / inserts or hopups allow for little more tweaking of the caster as well but I'd like to know the basis of each kit. The concept IFMAR rules state a minimum kickup of 5 degrees.

Does anybody know the kickup for:

Serpent GT Cobra
Xray GTX8
IGT8
HB RGT8
Mugen MGT8
Kyosho Inferno GT-3


Aprreciate any input...

regards

W.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 01:11 AM   #2
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 6,124
Send a message via ICQ to Roelof
Default

Also called anti dive and anti squad.

I think these options are mentioned in the manuals, setup sheets and in part option lists. There is no such list so you have to do some work to gather all the information by yourself.

Do not take much of the current concept rules, rules are continuous developing and so far we do not follow the IFMAR although the EFRA and IFMAR are most of the time on a same line with this. As an example there is a topic about GT engine rules that they have no sense....
__________________
The quality of an answer comes with the quality of the question.
Roelof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:07 AM   #3
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Also called anti dive and anti squad.

I think these options are mentioned in the manuals, setup sheets and in part option lists. There is no such list so you have to do some work to gather all the information by yourself.

Do not take much of the current concept rules, rules are continuous developing and so far we do not follow the IFMAR although the EFRA and IFMAR are most of the time on a same line with this. As an example there is a topic about GT engine rules that they have no sense....
The options is not the problem. I've studied pretty much all the manuals allready and there none of them have kickup values. Have to measure it myself I guess using the setup tool.

I thought some owners of the various GT's might know their setup and kickup which is the reason for this topic. The Serpent chassi is 8 degrees of chassis kickup I believe.

w.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 04:23 AM   #4
Tech Elite
 
British Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 2,307
Default

I have measured my MGT7 kickup as 6.8 degrees. Basically,7 rounded out.

Regards
BM
__________________
So enjoying building cars I sometimes forget to save some "man-time" to race them!?
British Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 05:07 AM   #5
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by British Menace View Post
I have measured my MGT7 kickup as 6.8 degrees. Basically,7 rounded out.

Regards
BM
Thx...and were you able to reduce front upright caster to almost 0 degrees by removing 2 mm of the upper arms?

regards

w.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 06:18 AM   #6
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 12
Default

Serpent Cobra GT is 15 degrees.
Ren13B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 09:52 AM   #7
Tech Addict
 
scary_jerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren13B View Post
Serpent Cobra GT is 15 degrees.
Please state which pieces you are using to arrive at that number.

Chassis_______
Carriers_______
Knuckles______

There are several mods since my Cobra 1.0+ got 10*> 0* carrier change and 2 changes to then 0* knuckles. Now with the advent of the 3.0 and 3.1 Serpent has gone back to 6* component in parts supplied.

'Compass' second function on Android phone is nifty 'protractor' for finding 'kickup' in relation to chassis plate and can be used to 'ballpark' rest of caster makeup.
scary_jerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 10:38 AM   #8
Tech Elite
 
British Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 2,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkloppen View Post
Thx...and were you able to reduce front upright caster to almost 0 degrees by removing 2 mm of the upper arms?

regards

w.
It is not possible, or desirable to reduce caster to 0 degree's (actual)
By shaving the upper arms (I have done this by as much as 5mm!!) and also shaving some off the rear of the lower arm's you can reduce "actual" caster to 7 - 8 degrees. This can be further reduced by using "other" front upper arm's.

Bear in mind though. Other work needs to be done in order to prevent the front drive shaft binding on the suspension spring/ shock.

Tower spacers and stand off's can help here but entails more work and production of custom parts.
Reducing the caster down to 9 degrees actual, placing outer tie-rod under steering hub and using full ackermann (on small tracks, middle setting on larger tracks) on the steering link bar seam's to work well.

Regards
BM
__________________
So enjoying building cars I sometimes forget to save some "man-time" to race them!?
British Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 11:52 AM   #9
Tech Fanatic
 
Julius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Amsterdam Netherlands
Posts: 964
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by British Menace View Post
I have measured my MGT7 kickup as 6.8 degrees. Basically,7 rounded out.

Regards
BM
Kickup values are mostly irrellevant nowadays. Sure most chassis still have a kickup as the rules require it, but mosts have adapted front wishbone mountings so the wishbone hinge pin is flat to the ground. The serpent from 3.0 onwards has flat arms and a c-hub with 6 degrees. Caster therefore is 6 degrees and there is no anti squat or anti dive.
Julius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 12:02 PM   #10
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by British Menace View Post
It is not possible, or desirable to reduce caster to 0 degree's (actual)
By shaving the upper arms (I have done this by as much as 5mm!!) and also shaving some off the rear of the lower arm's you can reduce "actual" caster to 7 - 8 degrees. This can be further reduced by using "other" front upper arm's.

Bear in mind though. Other work needs to be done in order to prevent the front drive shaft binding on the suspension spring/ shock.

Tower spacers and stand off's can help here but entails more work and production of custom parts.
Reducing the caster down to 9 degrees actual, placing outer tie-rod under steering hub and using full ackermann (on small tracks, middle setting on larger tracks) on the steering link bar seam's to work well.

Regards
BM
Good info BM.....thx.....will help us to get the GTX8 going......

w.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 04:19 PM   #11
Tech Elite
 
British Menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 2,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius View Post
Kickup values are mostly irrellevant nowadays. Sure most chassis still have a kickup as the rules require it, but mosts have adapted front wishbone mountings so the wishbone hinge pin is flat to the ground. The serpent from 3.0 onwards has flat arms and a c-hub with 6 degrees. Caster therefore is 6 degrees and there is no anti squat or anti dive.
Yes, you are right. Kick up is negated on the Serpent and maybe other makes too, by the parts available for leveling the bottom hinge pin.

But just leveling the lower hinge pin, will not in itself, reduce castor. The effect of kick up is that it actually moves the upper wishbone mounts rearward, this creates the extra castor. Merely leveling this bottom wishbone wont take that extra castor away again.
You would have to move the upper arm forward again to do this.

Regards
BM
__________________
So enjoying building cars I sometimes forget to save some "man-time" to race them!?
British Menace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 10:52 PM   #12
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default

Thx guys...feedbacks appreciated on the kickup + caster topic. Im still considering which GT to buy.....I will take my Cobra RTR 20+ degree caster master for a spin this weekend as the weather is becoming is looking GOOD this week. 22 to 23 celsius in the weekend....

w.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2017, 02:48 AM   #13
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scary_jerry View Post
Please state which pieces you are using to arrive at that number.

Chassis_______
Carriers_______
Knuckles______

There are several mods since my Cobra 1.0+ got 10*> 0* carrier change and 2 changes to then 0* knuckles. Now with the advent of the 3.0 and 3.1 Serpent has gone back to 6* component in parts supplied.

'Compass' second function on Android phone is nifty 'protractor' for finding 'kickup' in relation to chassis plate and can be used to 'ballpark' rest of caster makeup.
I'm referring to the chassis only. The chassis has a 15 degree kickup.
Ren13B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2017, 03:05 AM   #14
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren13B View Post
I'm referring to the chassis only. The chassis has a 15 degree kickup.
THX...so allready 8 degrees higher then the Mugen...

+1

w
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2017, 05:27 PM   #15
Tech Apprentice
 
wkloppen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 53
Default Camber increase due to caster

Tried to make an overview of the camber increase due to caster relative to the steering angle. It seems to work properly taking caster, static toe in and steering axis inclination into account.

You can edit the black filled fields filling out your own values. The steering angle is the toe in column and the most right column calculates the actual camber for the specific steering angle.

Note: camber increase due to pressing in the suspension has not been taken into account here. ..Might add that later but it's late and i wanna go to sleep

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


w.
30Tooth likes this.
__________________
___________________________________________________________
Serpent Cobra GT RTR with XRD 5 ports engine, Novarossi GT manifold (41032), 4 chamber Hypex low noise exhaust, GRP (S5, S4) tyres, Sanwa M11X, Savox 2290
wkloppen is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2wd kickup...necessary? one-nil Electric Off-Road 6 11-28-2012 11:18 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (1 members and 1 guests)
bertrandsv87
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:51 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net