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Old 01-09-2015, 10:36 AM   #61
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:00 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Danny A. View Post
In 2013, Southern California was the site host for the Nationals. Approximately $14,000 US was generated, $2500 was earned by the host and it took several months to receive the payment.

In fact, this used to be the reverse. There was a time when Roar was paid $3000 and the rest of the profits went to the host club or track. Why? The system was set up to self sustain itself. In other words, the money generated at a nationals would allow a host club or track to reinvest back into themselves, back into the sport, back to the racers.

There has been, as far as I can see, no justification for where all the extra revenue goes. Roar provides a limited secondary insurance which ultimately is what you are paying for when you sign up for Roar. The insurance only covers you at an event where everyone else is a Roar member otherwise ALL insurance is null and void. But aside from the insurance what else does Roar provide? As far as I can tell, just a name. A name that is attached to the word "Nationals" that is supposed to give a deeper meaning an event. Recognition from IFMAR, yes I suppose as well. But then most do not attend the world championships, so what really does Roar give back to the racers?

I had learned from those who fly model airplanes that AMA, the Academy of Model Aeronautics, selects an club/airfield each year to be the recipient of a grant from the AMA to improve their facility. For me, this was just an example of what a representative legislative body should provide back to the hobbyists and it serves an example that it can be done. Incidentally, AMA insurance covers model cars and not just at an event but anytime you take your car out, you are covered.

So after all the deceptions, controversies and internal corruption I am not surprised that most on road racers do not want something better for themselves. Instead of taking matters into their own hands and producing events for their brand of racing, on road nitro, the racers leave it up to the hope that the politics will play out in the best interest of the racers and the sport. For several years now, the outcome has not been in favor of the sport or the racers and every year someone steps up and allows roar to come to their track, dictate policy and take the lions share of the profits.

Sadly, most are content with the mindset that "I just want to race" and leave the politics to someone else. Well, those someone else's have an agenda and it for the most part does not include you or the sports best interest. It does however, include your $$$! The sport has been allowed to be turned into a profit making machine for who? You really want to see this system change then step and say something, then DO something. IMO, Non profits that are turned into profit making machines are a disservice to the heart of the hobby.

Why has this been allowed to happen on your watch? Now that you know what is really happening, what will you do about it?
Hey Danny:

Speaking specifically of the race at GLARCRC:
Where does your number of $14k come from? From my recollection ROAR only gets the entry fee money. I thought the club got the money from sponsorship sales, practice fees, concessions, (if the club did the concessions) raffle (if there is one) etc. It shouldn't have taken that long for the track to receive their money since most of the income that ROAR receives from the race was pre-paid.

I don't recall who buys the trophies for the race but I thought ROAR does now . The RMT does cost some money. Airfares, hotel rooms, food, etc. I happen to like the RMT although there are many that don't. You make it sound like ROAR is a few people that stand around counting their money and laughing at the members and I just don't believe there is some big pile of money that they split up every year. (they may laught at the members at times).

Remember that the RMT was supposed to be the solution to problems in the past with host tracks not doing things properly. I am not going to say the solution has worked/not worked but that was the purpose. Half the guys on the RMT don't want to be there anyway so I doubt they are making some huge amount of money.

Please correct any incorrect statements I have made as I am not an expert on the handling of the money from a NATS event. I don't think ROAR does everything correctly but I don't think ROAR is all that bad either.

None of this changes the fact: THERE IS STILL NO 2015 NATS TRACK. Also doesn't change the fact that while there are less tracks to choose from, they don't put in for the race anymore because the way ROAR does it makes in financially unattractive to host the race.... Not good on ROAR's part.
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Last edited by Scott Fisher; 01-09-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:34 AM   #63
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Hey Danny:

Speaking specifically of the race at GLARCRC:
Where does your number of $14k come from? From my recollection ROAR only gets the entry fee money. I thought the club got the money from sponsorship sales, practice fees, concessions, (if the club did the concessions) raffle (if there is one) etc. It shouldn't have taken that long for the track to receive their money since most of the income that ROAR receives from the race was pre-paid.

I don't recall who buys the trophies for the race but I thought ROAR does now . The RMT does cost some money. Airfares, hotel rooms, food, etc. I happen to like the RMT although there are many that don't. You make it sound like ROAR is a few people that stand around counting their money and laughing at the members and I just don't believe there is some big pile of money that they split up every year. (they may laught at the members at times).

Remember that the RMT was supposed to be the solution to problems in the past with host tracks not doing things properly. I am not going to say the solution has worked/not worked but that was the purpose. Half the guys on the RMT don't want to be there anyway so I doubt they are making some huge amount of money.

Please correct any incorrect statements I have made as I am not an expert on the handling of the money from a NATS event. I don't think ROAR does everything correctly but I don't think ROAR is all that bad either.
I may be mistaken but when I calculated the entries at $85 I had come up with $14000, or thereabouts at the time which was around 165 event entrants.

The money that came from the sponsors went back directly to cover the event expenses and I know that GLA did not make any money from sponsors. The raffle generated about $600 and practice fees came to about $1000 if I remember correctly.

And just a point on the sponsors who paid to support the nationals that year. This is a tremendous point, if Roar had not taken such a huge amount of the profits from the entries, say if things had been the way they used to be where roar received 3K and the rest went to the host, the revenue generated from the race would have paid for the event! The sponsors graciously helped make that event happen. But it should not have been necessary. The money from the nationals should go to help pay for itself, as it used to be.

The money from Roar was not paid until later in the year.

The point is that in the past there was no RMT and no need for its justification or expense. The host clubs or tracks would do the work of hosting the event and in the past and more importantly would keep the majority of the income earned to do with it what they wanted.

Why is now that the racers who host races all across the country are seen as not qualified to do that same work? The RMT came to being in 2006 when the 1/10 sedan nationals were held at Crystal Park. Perhaps it was justified in that case, for those who know the history of Crystal Park, but to say that all subsequent nationals justified the RMT after that nationals in 2006 is questionable to me. Who decides or decided that a certain club or track was not adequate?

The nationals were held in FT. Meyers last year and those guys know how to host a race!

The point is that the responsibility to host the nationals has been taken out of the hands of the racers and more importantly the financial resources have been re directed somewhere else. Those financial resources that are needed to help sustain the clubs or tracks.

Last edited by Danny A.; 01-09-2015 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:41 AM   #64
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I think ROAR should figure out a pricing matrix. They need to figure out payments to their RMT's and how many they will send, plane fare and room costs, the shipping costs of their equipment and supplies. Then I think they need to charge a set fee, per class, on how many classes you want to run, to cover trophy costs.
THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!!!
RMT's x 3 @ $500 each $1500
2 rooms 4 nights @ $120 a night $960
Airfare x 3 @ $400 each $1200
Shipping and supplies $400
Per Class Charge $400 each x 3 $1200
TOTAL $5260

This pricing is not going to work for everyone, but it should give a rough idea of costs. With this matrix it would take ROAR 62 entries @ $85 each to cover costs. I think anything over 62 entries, $65 goes to the track and $20 goes to ROAR. So if you were to bring in 125 entries you would receive $4095. Under current guidelines, you would only get $2500. Also under current guidelines you ONLY receive $2500 until you hit the 190 entry mark, after that you get $30 an entry (Oh, how thoughtful of them)

Just my $.02
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by T-Hawk View Post
I think ROAR should figure out a pricing matrix. They need to figure out payments to their RMT's and how many they will send, plane fare and room costs, the shipping costs of their equipment and supplies. Then I think they need to charge a set fee, per class, on how many classes you want to run, to cover trophy costs.
THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!!!
RMT's x 3 @ $500 each $1500
2 rooms 4 nights @ $120 a night $960
Airfare x 3 @ $400 each $1200
Shipping and supplies $400
Per Class Charge $400 each x 3 $1200
TOTAL $5260

This pricing is not going to work for everyone, but it should give a rough idea of costs. With this matrix it would take ROAR 62 entries @ $85 each to cover costs. I think anything over 62 entries, $65 goes to the track and $20 goes to ROAR. So if you were to bring in 125 entries you would receive $4095. Under current guidelines, you would only get $2500. Also under current guidelines you ONLY receive $2500 until you hit the 190 entry mark, after that you get $30 an entry (Oh, how thoughtful of them)

Just my $.02
If memory serves me correctly, in the past only one representative from roar was required.

What is wrong with allowing the clubs and tracks to be responsible for the event?

"Big" races are held all over with little or no issue. Why is it that the nationals, which is just another "big" race, requires special intervention that is costing the racers so much?

Specifically, it is about where the money goes. I would not have a problem paying a fair priced entry fee KNOWING that my money is going back to the track or to the club which my hope would be to be spent on sustaining its future.

What is roar giving back? A fair race? Representation? , What are racers getting for their money? Specifically, what are on road nitro racers, the smallest minority of R/C, getting for their money?

A better way to do it?

Last edited by Danny A.; 01-09-2015 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 12:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Danny A. View Post
If memory serves me correctly, in the past only one representative from roar was required.

What is wrong with allowing the clubs and tracks to be responsible for the event?

"Big" races are held all over with little or no issue. Why is it that the nationals, which is just another "big" race, requires special intervention that is costing the racers so much?

What is roar giving back? A fair race? What are racers getting for their money? Specifically, what are on road nitro racers getting for their money?
Like I said, Just an Example. This is all on the high side, just going by their guidelines. If they one send one, then the monies they receive would be adjusted for that.
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Old 01-09-2015, 04:35 PM   #67
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If tracks are losing money holding the Nationals that sucks. And if Roar is making money on the event then that sucks too. I have always thought Roar was non profit. But $85 is nothing compared to the thousands I spend to go to a big race. And then trying to get a week off from work is always difficult for me and near impossible around the holidays. This is what I have always done and enjoy doing my hobby.
It does sound to me too like Roar should consider making some changes for 1/8 scale onroad since the attendance is down. Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-09-2015, 06:59 PM   #68
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Well there was a chance. Eric Anderson pushed to be president and actually won the election based on overall votes but was disqualified due to a temporary lapse in his roar membership. He would have shaken things up. Oh well. It will take a lot of backing and you will need support from Manufactuer's and tracks with some added benefit.
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:20 PM   #69
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:15 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Danny A. View Post
In 2013, Southern California was the site host for the Nationals. Approximately $14,000 US was generated, $2500 was earned by the host and it took several months to receive the payment.

In fact, this used to be the reverse. There was a time when Roar was paid $3000 and the rest of the profits went to the host club or track. Why? The system was set up to self sustain itself. In other words, the money generated at a nationals would allow a host club or track to reinvest back into themselves, back into the sport, back to the racers.

There has been, as far as I can see, no justification for where all the extra revenue goes. Roar provides a limited secondary insurance which ultimately is what you are paying for when you sign up for Roar. The insurance only covers you at an event where everyone else is a Roar member otherwise ALL insurance is null and void. But aside from the insurance what else does Roar provide? As far as I can tell, just a name. A name that is attached to the word "Nationals" that is supposed to give a deeper meaning an event. Recognition from IFMAR, yes I suppose as well. But then most do not attend the world championships, so what really does Roar give back to the racers?

I had learned from those who fly model airplanes that AMA, the Academy of Model Aeronautics, selects an club/airfield each year to be the recipient of a grant from the AMA to improve their facility. For me, this was just an example of what a representative legislative body should provide back to the hobbyists and it serves an example that it can be done. Incidentally, AMA insurance covers model cars and not just at an event but anytime you take your car out, you are covered.

So after all the deceptions, controversies and internal corruption I am not surprised that most on road racers do not want something better for themselves. Instead of taking matters into their own hands and producing a nationals for themselves, the vast majority of the racers leave it up to the hope that the politics will play out in the best interest of the racers and the sport. For several years now, the outcome has not been in favor of the sport or the racers and every year someone steps up and allows roar to come to their track, dictate policy and take the lions share of the profits.

Sadly, most are content with the mindset that "I just want to race" and leave the politics to someone else. Well, those someone else's have an agenda and it for the most part does not include you or the sports best interest. It does however, include your $$$! The sport has been allowed to be turned into a profit making machine for who? You really want to see this system change then step and say something, then DO something. IMO, Non profits that are turned into profit making machines are a disservice to the heart of the hobby/sport.

And it just got me thinking, I hear guys all the time say how much they "love" this sport/racing yet when it comes to taking care of the sport they love and its future, all most seem to really care about it "I just want to race". I guess people get what they settle for.
Hey Danny,

I wanted to comment on what you posted. I am no fan of ROAR at all. Coming from Britain, it is known over there that manufacturers, one regarding a Snake , have huge influences on their activity and policy.

But it's what you said about racers and their attitude that I wanted to comment on.
We, as racers, have to take a lot of responsibility for how the hobby has progressed/ digressed in the way its ran. You are right in that racers "just want to race" Danny. It's their money they are paying (wasting?) on ROAR or any other part of the hobby so "I'll" do as I like and what "I" think fit with it! Is the attitude which hurts us!

For most, I feel there really is no consideration for the "greater good" of either other racers or the hobby.
Especially when racers see this is the common attitude of racers they race with or here about.
It's all "Me, Me, Me" ...... and that attitude is not just confined to our hobby. It's a comonality which you can find in many aspects of life present day. (More so then ever I feel)

Of course not all are like this!! Many will have examples of people involved in the hobby that are the exact opposite. Many of these people are the owners and organizers of the racers we attend week in, week out!

To them, I personally take off my hat and thank them for 30+ years of racing on "their" tracks!!
These after all are the people who are standing up and doing something for the hobby.

I think, the majority of us "racers" need to ask ourselves, what do we "do", not what do we pay towards(!!!), but what do we do for the good of the hobby?
I, like many others, do nothing more then build and race the cars I love.
How many of you, us would be sooooo in trouble if one of our beloved car's flipped/ crashed and hit someone, sending them to hospital because that car hit them at 40+ mph and you are not insured for liability for that car injuring them?
Why? Because we don't want to. We just don't care. If we did, we would have insurance similar to that Danny mentioned that the AMA can provide.
Or, incidentally, a lot of other insurance company's are more then willing to take your money for. But your covered!!

Most all just want to pay money and race, whatever the consequences.

If you want change, weather it be within ROAR or the hobby as a whole, we must ask ourselves, how much we ourselves are willing to change.

For change to happen there needs to be a desire for an alternative.
We need to be part of the solutions by "Doing" something. If we do nothing, as individuals,

1. Don't expect any change to the way thing's are right now.
2. It is now, and will continue to be, a money making machine. (Very few things aren't these days!)

Forgive my ramble.
But we all need insurance for the car's and RC's we run. Not just through ROAR, if that satisfies you, but in general.
AMA could well be the way to go!!?

Regards
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Old 01-10-2015, 06:17 AM   #71
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Holding an event is easy. 90% of hobby shops I know won't pass on a chance for a bigger race. The question now is how would you setup a national? It can be done but would need support from the companies and drivers. Can you find someone to setup the regional infrastructure? Can you do something at a regional level to make the National matter? I'm not talking about seeding per say but something where a regional win qualifies you for nationals without paying for entry (maybe top 3). Something that would build value in the regional system.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:04 AM   #72
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Fuel On Road Nationals to be hosted by Full Throttle Raceway 3103 Florida Coach Drive
Kissimmee Florida 34741
April 30- May 3, 2015
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:27 AM   #73
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Fuel On Road Nationals to be hosted by Full Throttle Raceway 3103 Florida Coach Drive
Kissimmee Florida 34741
April 30- May 3, 2015
Fly into Orlando?
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:32 AM   #74
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Fly into Orlando?
Orlando works well. I think Congrats are in order for George and the staff at Full Throttle! I'm sure it'll be a great event!
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:38 AM   #75
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Fly into Orlando?
Airport code mco
Track is merely 30 to 45 min south depending on traffic
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