1/8th On Road Losing Popularity?
09-01-2005, 07:43 AM
#376
Re
I , like many have raced 1/8 for awhile now. I have been racing 1/8 since 1993 and have seen alot of ups and downs. I only see downs lately here in So Cal. In other regions it might be strong enought that any action might not be required. Not the case here. Look at Formula 1. It use to be that way...but the governing body looked at the situation where teams were folding because of cost. So they started modifying the rules to try to contain cost. Look at F1 Decade on Speed Channel....there were way more cars on the grid than what you have today. There might be a few arguments against this "spec type proposal" that has been talked about in this thread....but I am all ears for anyone that is trying to promote another way to generate interest and participation in this class and at the same time lowering cost. Engines are a start. There's more that could be done and in time maybe more ideas will surface. If the present state of 1/8 continues....I will not be racing this class next year. Not that I will be missed....but as the trend continues...you will be left with just a few clubs that have this class. In my opinion it's ridiculous to to say 1/8 is the extreme and expensive.....and leave it that way. Like many...this is "just my opinion"!!!
09-01-2005, 08:37 AM
#377
jefferylin,
I am involved with Max Power Canada however if you know me you will learn that I fully support lower cost alternative engines. Not everyone can afford a Max Engine, and I realize that.
I would support 100% a spec class that was thought out properly. Regardless of engine use. My opinion is non biased whatsover...beleive me.
None of my response states that a SPEC class isnt a good idea. All I care about is the health of the class as a whole. At club level events I could use one of our fully modified motors...I don't. I use the MAX 721. If you look at the specs you will se that is is almost stock.
Beleive me the health of the class is a concern to me above ALL else. I will be in this hobby LONG after my involvement with Max Power.
The spec idea is great but should be presented as a COMPLETE and proper package to whatever governing body there is locally. A 5 port engine alone will not do much to lower the cost of the class.
John
I am involved with Max Power Canada however if you know me you will learn that I fully support lower cost alternative engines. Not everyone can afford a Max Engine, and I realize that.
I would support 100% a spec class that was thought out properly. Regardless of engine use. My opinion is non biased whatsover...beleive me.
None of my response states that a SPEC class isnt a good idea. All I care about is the health of the class as a whole. At club level events I could use one of our fully modified motors...I don't. I use the MAX 721. If you look at the specs you will se that is is almost stock.
Beleive me the health of the class is a concern to me above ALL else. I will be in this hobby LONG after my involvement with Max Power.
The spec idea is great but should be presented as a COMPLETE and proper package to whatever governing body there is locally. A 5 port engine alone will not do much to lower the cost of the class.
John
09-01-2005, 10:47 AM
#378
Originally Posted by jrabbito
jefferylin,
I am involved with Max Power Canada however if you know me you will learn that I fully support lower cost alternative engines. Not everyone can afford a Max Engine, and I realize that.
I would support 100% a spec class that was thought out properly. Regardless of engine use. My opinion is non biased whatsover...beleive me.
None of my response states that a SPEC class isnt a good idea. All I care about is the health of the class as a whole. At club level events I could use one of our fully modified motors...I don't. I use the MAX 721. If you look at the specs you will se that is is almost stock.
Beleive me the health of the class is a concern to me above ALL else. I will be in this hobby LONG after my involvement with Max Power.
The spec idea is great but should be presented as a COMPLETE and proper package to whatever governing body there is locally. A 5 port engine alone will not do much to lower the cost of the class.
John
I am involved with Max Power Canada however if you know me you will learn that I fully support lower cost alternative engines. Not everyone can afford a Max Engine, and I realize that.
I would support 100% a spec class that was thought out properly. Regardless of engine use. My opinion is non biased whatsover...beleive me.
None of my response states that a SPEC class isnt a good idea. All I care about is the health of the class as a whole. At club level events I could use one of our fully modified motors...I don't. I use the MAX 721. If you look at the specs you will se that is is almost stock.
Beleive me the health of the class is a concern to me above ALL else. I will be in this hobby LONG after my involvement with Max Power.
The spec idea is great but should be presented as a COMPLETE and proper package to whatever governing body there is locally. A 5 port engine alone will not do much to lower the cost of the class.
John
09-01-2005, 10:49 AM
#379
Originally Posted by Tzadkiel
Actually it doesn't have to get started somehow 
If someone wants to save money, they shouldn't run 1/8. 1/8 is an expensive class; the cars have lots of power and are heavy.
I really don't like the idea of a spec 1/8 class. We have too many classes as it is. Remember super 10? 235mm 2WD, then 4WD outlaw? Every time we get a good thing going we split up the classes based on car specifications. It makes more sense for everyone in 1/8 to run with the same rules and split up the drivers based on skill (we've had GREAT luck with a self-declared Sportsman class here at RAMS). It's simple economics -- we don't have a billion racers showing up every race day, and it's a lot more fun to race against 40 other racers than it is to race against 10 other racers. That's one of the problems (IM not-so HO) with electric. Are you running brushless or mod? Stock? 19T? The classes are so fractured it's ridiculous.
We need to keep 1/8 monolithic. It's small enough as it is today; we don't need to be breaking it up in the interest of cost. If we break it up, then the clubs that have only 18 people showing up will now have two different groups -- maybe a group of 10, and another group of 8. How much fun is that? During a 15-minute main, maybe three guys have problems, and 5 guys finish the race. Whoop-de-doo, you ran against a total of four guys in your main.
I just really believe that we aren't big enough to fracture our class.
Tz
If someone wants to save money, they shouldn't run 1/8. 1/8 is an expensive class; the cars have lots of power and are heavy.
I really don't like the idea of a spec 1/8 class. We have too many classes as it is. Remember super 10? 235mm 2WD, then 4WD outlaw? Every time we get a good thing going we split up the classes based on car specifications. It makes more sense for everyone in 1/8 to run with the same rules and split up the drivers based on skill (we've had GREAT luck with a self-declared Sportsman class here at RAMS). It's simple economics -- we don't have a billion racers showing up every race day, and it's a lot more fun to race against 40 other racers than it is to race against 10 other racers. That's one of the problems (IM not-so HO) with electric. Are you running brushless or mod? Stock? 19T? The classes are so fractured it's ridiculous.
We need to keep 1/8 monolithic. It's small enough as it is today; we don't need to be breaking it up in the interest of cost. If we break it up, then the clubs that have only 18 people showing up will now have two different groups -- maybe a group of 10, and another group of 8. How much fun is that? During a 15-minute main, maybe three guys have problems, and 5 guys finish the race. Whoop-de-doo, you ran against a total of four guys in your main.
I just really believe that we aren't big enough to fracture our class.
Tz
09-01-2005, 10:53 AM
#380
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
This has gotten to be a waste of time...good luck guys continuing to spending big $$$ on engines and inflating your racing budgets more than needed....
Hoepfully a few clubs will read into what was discussed here and establish some sort SPEC guidelines to help control the rising costs of 1/8th racing...
Hoepfully a few clubs will read into what was discussed here and establish some sort SPEC guidelines to help control the rising costs of 1/8th racing...
This class first appearence will be Dec 3,4 Crystal Park Raceway Toys for Tots race see you then.
You can race both classes, I think he's only going to charge $5.00 for your second class.
09-01-2005, 11:03 AM
#381
Robbie,
No probs. Even though the motor is very close to stock (only addition is silicone in the crank) it isnt a 5 port engine. Its considered a 7 port. In the spirit of a "spec" class I am not sure that this meets the criteria you have set out.
If it does you could contact RC America as they are the US Distributor for Max Power.
I know they have done alot to bring the cost of ultra competative engines down. You could easily get a FULLY modified Max Power 1/8 engine in the US near $500.00. Thats alot less than other manufacturers so it might give you a guideline for the 721.
Cheers,
John
No probs. Even though the motor is very close to stock (only addition is silicone in the crank) it isnt a 5 port engine. Its considered a 7 port. In the spirit of a "spec" class I am not sure that this meets the criteria you have set out.
If it does you could contact RC America as they are the US Distributor for Max Power.
I know they have done alot to bring the cost of ultra competative engines down. You could easily get a FULLY modified Max Power 1/8 engine in the US near $500.00. Thats alot less than other manufacturers so it might give you a guideline for the 721.
Cheers,
John
09-01-2005, 11:10 AM
#382
Ok, so we've all been going back and forth. From what I can determine:
Our Goal: to introduce a less expensive form of racing 1/8th scale to the existing and new 1/8th scale racers, thereby reducing the overall cost.
Pros:
> something has to be done
> less wear and tear on the chassis, thereby saving overall cost to a racing season.
> Engine itself is less expensive (non-modified vs modified)
> may increase participation at the club level...new drivers and or racers signing up for both stock and modified.
> All other rules pertaining to the class will stay the same. At this time, only the engine is being considered
Cons:
> another class within a class will divide the racers and may lose interest all together.
> 1/8th is suppose to be the "extreme" form of rc racing. slowing it down is not the solution
> better to take time and review the impact/downside to the class...doing the wrong thing may only hurt the class. Need proper planning.
> adding another class so people can make the A-main is not the solution.
> I'd rather race 60 drivers and make the "D" main than 30 and make the "B"
So, what's the answer? I will say, that other than the last "con", all the other cons are marginal at best....especially when we review the goal.
Our Goal: to introduce a less expensive form of racing 1/8th scale to the existing and new 1/8th scale racers, thereby reducing the overall cost.
Pros:
> something has to be done
> less wear and tear on the chassis, thereby saving overall cost to a racing season.
> Engine itself is less expensive (non-modified vs modified)
> may increase participation at the club level...new drivers and or racers signing up for both stock and modified.
> All other rules pertaining to the class will stay the same. At this time, only the engine is being considered
Cons:
> another class within a class will divide the racers and may lose interest all together.
> 1/8th is suppose to be the "extreme" form of rc racing. slowing it down is not the solution
> better to take time and review the impact/downside to the class...doing the wrong thing may only hurt the class. Need proper planning.
> adding another class so people can make the A-main is not the solution.
> I'd rather race 60 drivers and make the "D" main than 30 and make the "B"
So, what's the answer? I will say, that other than the last "con", all the other cons are marginal at best....especially when we review the goal.
09-01-2005, 11:28 AM
#383
It sounds a lot like F3000, not F1. F1 loses popularity, then it gains it back, and then back down again. Most sports do it. A spec class sounds interesting, but that will just cannibalize from the open class...two smaller classes.?.?.? You may gain some new racers...who intern have left other classes. Viscious circle, huh?
09-01-2005, 11:44 AM
#384
No ONE person will set the peramiters for this class. Thats what I have been saying all along.
You need to involve ROAR, the local clubs and their members in these discussions. Hash out a set of rules and then execute on that plan. Sounds long and complicated? It is!!! You are devising a new class and the cumulative investment by racers will be in the tens of thousands of dollars!!
I know I wouldn't invest personally in a class that wasn't nationally recognized and I am sure there are others in the same boat. If ROAR backs it then you stand a MUCH better chance of making this fly and adding credability to this. It doesn't guarantee a thing though..I realize that.
This isn't to say that a local club couldn't flourish under its own rules and guidelines.
John
P.S. Writing off peoples opinons and suggestions as marginal if they aren't yours is a sure recipe for failure. I have seen it first hand.
What happened when the IRL constructed a "spec" class for open wheel american racing??? If you think that the potential to hurt the 1/8 open class isnt there think again. There are only so many people willing to race 1/8. Divide them how you like.
You need to involve ROAR, the local clubs and their members in these discussions. Hash out a set of rules and then execute on that plan. Sounds long and complicated? It is!!! You are devising a new class and the cumulative investment by racers will be in the tens of thousands of dollars!!
I know I wouldn't invest personally in a class that wasn't nationally recognized and I am sure there are others in the same boat. If ROAR backs it then you stand a MUCH better chance of making this fly and adding credability to this. It doesn't guarantee a thing though..I realize that.
This isn't to say that a local club couldn't flourish under its own rules and guidelines.
John
P.S. Writing off peoples opinons and suggestions as marginal if they aren't yours is a sure recipe for failure. I have seen it first hand.
What happened when the IRL constructed a "spec" class for open wheel american racing??? If you think that the potential to hurt the 1/8 open class isnt there think again. There are only so many people willing to race 1/8. Divide them how you like.
09-01-2005, 12:55 PM
#385
This is kind of funny I am not a 1/8TH scale racer but I do show interest in that class, I am a neutral party on the out side looking in, I don't care if roar is involved or not, roar is not what keeps this hobby going racers are.
Roar gives us guide lines weather we agree or disagree I have not seen a roar elect member come up with anything to enhance or promote the class or hobby, so with that said I do understand and embrace all options but I don't have to agree.
Roar gives us guide lines weather we agree or disagree I have not seen a roar elect member come up with anything to enhance or promote the class or hobby, so with that said I do understand and embrace all options but I don't have to agree.
Last edited by ROBBIE C; 09-01-2005 at 01:07 PM.
09-01-2005, 01:09 PM
#386
Carl I wish you were in our Region it would be great.
You are what this hobby needs.
Very good region director.
You are what this hobby needs.
Very good region director.
09-01-2005, 01:35 PM
#388
I think he shood he gets my vote.
09-01-2005, 01:35 PM
#389
well i thought i'd add my .02 i have seen a lot of spec classes come and go over the years and i don't race on road personally, but i think the best way to keep interest in the class would be to put a cap on the engine price say $250 total. with or without modification. then institue a spec tire rule so that each specific track picks there own spec tire, a tire that grips but may last a little longer. that way you only need tires for your track, and you may need a different tire for another track. let the club decide on the tire. another possiblity to help draw in more people instead of divide the class would be to let the spec class run a different body, maybe a touring car body. with a slower engine you could get away with little less downforce. i would not definatly not call it a spec class, maybe 1/8 scale class "a" and 1/8 scale class "b". whenever i hear the word spec class it turns me off for one reason. the reality of spec racing is it more expensive than open. the reason is when you offer cheaper parts people will run there 250 dollar engine so lean it will only last one day. so all the sudden you are buying a new spec engine every two weeks to keep up. or grinding your tires down to last one weekend. and defeating the purpose of the class. this happens all the time in spec racing. in all forms of racing when the parts are cheap people will push these parts harder than they can take because replacing them is cheap. now if r/c is to grow the tracks need to start enforcing rules of real racing. i have raced for 6 years almost every weekend i have never seen anyone get black flagged ever!. everyone on here knows there have been times when someone should have been black flagged for hacking. also the spec class is great but it should be a beginner class, if you win the spec class every weekend for a month, you need to be moved up, all it will cost you is an engine and a body. when r/c tracks treat the racing as a legitimate form of racing instead of trying to be nice to everyone racing will grow. it may be slow for awhile but in the long run it would only help the hobby.
09-01-2005, 01:49 PM
#390
I think the tire issue will be the next hurdle but first we have to clarify this motor thing I think most people here are missing the point, there will be no change of bodies do to the fact that this will not lower the cost, there will be no spec tire rules do to the fact that this will not lower cost.
This class purpose is not to create a class for beginners, this class is attended for people who are not ready or willing to spend hundreds of dollars on high end motors. This class is also attended for more of a equal playing field, no modify motors and limitations on the ports. The sedan class has port limitations but we don't call that a spec or sportsman class.
You can race both classes if you like all you have to do is change engines.
This class purpose is not to create a class for beginners, this class is attended for people who are not ready or willing to spend hundreds of dollars on high end motors. This class is also attended for more of a equal playing field, no modify motors and limitations on the ports. The sedan class has port limitations but we don't call that a spec or sportsman class.
You can race both classes if you like all you have to do is change engines.