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Serpent Cobra GT RTR or Kyosho GT2 race spec
Hello all,
Been out of the hobby for years to build a family and now that the kids are much older I want to get back in. Racing is limited in my area so I will be starting with the RTR stuff. Just picked up the GRP Tuned .28 for race day. Chassis to choose from are the Serpent Cobra RTR that comes with a basic Nova Rossi which is a good start, tires are good also, sadly short chassis. Kyosho Inferno GT2 is an old concept but race proven. The tires I am told will be finished after the engine is broken-in. I plan on selling the KE25 engine and install the Losi 454 .28 engine instead. So I have 2 engines coming Losi 454, GRP Tuned .28 I think this is plenty of power to sharpen up my skills the problem will be choosing a chassis. Serpent is my first choice but I hate the short chassis grrrrrrrrrrrrrr Kyosho has the very strong pedigree as does Serpent but the GT2 comes with the long chassis and beautiful and very effective Audi LMS body. Most guys up here have the Kyosho, 5 of so with the Serpent. Any dates and prices for the Serpent RTR? The Serpent 811 Cobra RTR is selling for $530 but back ordered, I assume the GT will be a bit more expensive due to the 2sp tranny. That was a long rant BUT Serpent (few guys) Kyosho (a much larger amount). Please help me choose and why! TIA |
Hmm okay let me try and answer you question in a way that wont hurt feelings.
We GT racers owe a lot to the founding father the Kyosho Inferno GT. If it wasn't for that car GT racing wouldn't exist. Just as much so we owe Serpent especially Desoto Racing/Serpent America credit for showing this is a legit race class all over the country. Serpent provided us with an amazing kit and supported it with factory drivers who promoted and developed the car and class immensely. Lets get down to it... Very Easy decision here... Flat Out no question Serpent Cobra GT whether you go kit or RTR. Since you are looking RTR let me tell you what has me excited. 1. Serpent, The RTR is 100% upgrade-able to the full race kit. As you run and get use to the RTR you can make the decision on where you think the car needs more and then get the parts to accomplish your goals. 2. Serpent, Quality RTR components. From Servos with the right amount of torque to a beautiful Orange headed Novarossi you simply cannot go wrong here. You will not need to upgrade the servos like you would in any other rtr. Then you throw in probably the most popular race engine brand as the heart and soul. You simply cannot go wrong with Novarossi motors and the fact that it is in the kit ready to go sets the bar in my eyes. Overall I strongly believe the Serpent has much more to offer in a RTR package. To hit on a few points you made... Long vs Short Chassis. Any racer who is going to big events or dominating at their local track is running a short chassis. The cornering is far superior with a short chassis. The only thing the long chassis has going for it are the licensed bodies. However the purpose built race bodies out perform the licensed ones on the track. Its funny to me you say Serpent (few Guys) and Kyosho (a much larger amount). While that may be the case where you live I can assure you this is not the case when it comes to any larger event. Serpent dominates chassis count at large race events with ease. Lastly, Why I race Serpent Products Simple, they make top level race proven kits and then back them up with the best support I personally have seen from any other company. To me the kits sell themselves. Everything is engineered to be a race machine and the quality of parts is matched by few company's. While top tier quality is easy for these top brands to achieve the support structure is not. In my own personal experience Serpent America/Desoto Racing has gone well out of their way to ensure I am getting the experience with the Cobra GT as they have designed it. I have spent time trackside with both Joaquin and Paolo who both treated me very well. I have also spent a decent amount of time on the phone with Paolo as he has helped me take my car and motors to the next level. From the top level to the Team Drivers these guys are the best in my opinion. They continuously demonstrate what kind of Team I desire to be a part of. Thank you Serpent America and Desoto Racing for your continued support. Verdict: Serpent Cobra GT by a landslide :nod: |
Well there is one more option - OFNA.
All of Ty's points are dead on and I must commend him on his thought process. I agree that the short wheel base is a better performing platform here in the USA. But if you are a modeler and not a serious racer (and I have many friends that are) there are much better looking bodies for the longer chassis. I have a Team C Ferrari that is what I would like to race, but is set for the longer chassis. As to brands, OFNA has had the DM1 out for 4+ years and still is availalbe. Ty will confirm that it can be made very competitive, but it takes lots of times and parts. They are just now coming out with a new car X3, that has a great looking body, proved to be pretty quick in it's first outing at the Airtronics race in LA (you can find pictures of the car if you look through the thread here on RcTech). The car Tq'd the class with a slighly modified car, and one pure stock with a .28 RTR motor finished 3rd in the A-main, both first time on the track. The RTR is due up next, but I would guess 60days +/-. Parts are already in stock as most cross over from the X3 Saber off road car, from Nitro House and others carrying OFNA. This kit is about 1/2 the cost of the Serpent in a 80% built kit as they call it. Complete rolling chassis with the sweet body, just add the electronics and engine. Nitro House has this on a pre-buy at $319 with thier normal 5% discount puts it just under $304. I think you can still get the DM1 as a RTR with engine and electronics for around $400 as another option. Plus there are used cars around to be had for under $225. So just something to think about. |
Again, Ty made some very good valid points in his statement, and the COBRA GT was built and designed to supersede the GT2 race spec and DM1 as a track car, and they def succeeded in there goal !! lol...Note, Kyosho did not build a car to race on track clearly...big difference here.... I also have spoken many times to Paolo Morganti at Desoto in person and over the phone and I must commend him, Joaquin Sr and lets not forget Jeff Vargas from Ipanema for really getting GT racing to what it is right now ! With that being said, The OP clearly said there is not much racing in his area and that he really hates the short chassis, so my advice to you as the owner of a race ready GT1/MP777WC car (short) and a upgraded RTR GT2 race spec, for what you need it for then the decision is simple ..GT2 Race spec...now if you plan to ever make that car competitive and to be within 1 sec of the Cobra GT, then unfortunately you will have to build a car like what I did which has really nothing left from the original RTR GT1 car except for suspension and shocks...EVERYTHING else has been ditched $$$$ ! But and upgraded GT2 race spec is a very stable easy car to drive fast...basic upgrades (what I did) I installed a .21 RB Rally/nova based motor bump start, aluminum tranny mounts from Dragon racing, SP brake upgrade (disc and pads), dumped the RTR servos for some Jr's Z9100s and installed some Alpha medium shore tires available at Desoto (those Mediums can last a very long time in parking lots) and there you go !! ....some might ask me why not just go buy a Cobra GT, but my answer will always be, I love being the underdog, and case in point 2 yrs in a row the Pan American GT race held in Homestead Miami has been won by an XRAY XB9 converted buggy built by another great racer Rino Lino which turned lap times within 2/10's of a sec of the fastest Cobra GT : )
My .02 cents..... |
I trust the guys I will be racing with and both said the brakes and housing (metal) need to upgraded on both cars.
Although both chassis are very race competent it appears it would cost less with the Kyosho since it has been around for so long. I do not want to pour more money than I have to the 1st year back regarding the electronics. How good are the RTR radios / servos in these kits? Kyosho engine wont see a break-in but shocks will be an issue and was told revo 3.3 shocks have been shown to work well everything else seems race ready. Serpent on the other hand will require more $$$ overall. Longer chassis, drive shafts. Note: We have a permanent track 1.5hrs away and its large at Sanair raceway. This is not the place most of my/our time will be spent as we have a simple painted down track for every day use. Will the short chassis put me in such a disadvantage seeing I have been away for 15 yrs or so?? I feel like I am being tugged back and forth because I raced Serpents for the last 3 years before taking time off and before the Serpent I was racing the Inferno off road for 4 years. Now we have the GT class which fits in perfectly to race in uneven surfaces not like the 1/8, 1/10 on-roads. And I want to get back slowly ($$) hence the RTR. Seams like if I would have the radio gear the serpent would be the obvious choice or am I deceiving myself with that as well?? Can you guys sense my frustration and some anxiety? |
Originally Posted by TerribleTy
(Post 13110195)
Hmm okay let me try and answer you question in a way that wont hurt feelings.
We GT racers owe a lot to the founding father the Kyosho Inferno GT. If it wasn't for that car GT racing wouldn't exist. Just as much so we owe Serpent especially Desoto Racing/Serpent America credit for showing this is a legit race class all over the country. Serpent provided us with an amazing kit and supported it with factory drivers who promoted and developed the car and class immensely. Lets get down to it... Very Easy decision here... Flat Out no question Serpent Cobra GT whether you go kit or RTR. Since you are looking RTR let me tell you what has me excited. 1. Serpent, The RTR is 100% upgrade-able to the full race kit. As you run and get use to the RTR you can make the decision on where you think the car needs more and then get the parts to accomplish your goals. 2. Serpent, Quality RTR components. From Servos with the right amount of torque to a beautiful Orange headed Novarossi you simply cannot go wrong here. You will not need to upgrade the servos like you would in any other rtr. Then you throw in probably the most popular race engine brand as the heart and soul. You simply cannot go wrong with Novarossi motors and the fact that it is in the kit ready to go sets the bar in my eyes. Overall I strongly believe the Serpent has much more to offer in a RTR package. To hit on a few points you made... Long vs Short Chassis. Any racer who is going to big events or dominating at their local track is running a short chassis. The cornering is far superior with a short chassis. The only thing the long chassis has going for it are the licensed bodies. However the purpose built race bodies out perform the licensed ones on the track. Its funny to me you say Serpent (few Guys) and Kyosho (a much larger amount). While that may be the case where you live I can assure you this is not the case when it comes to any larger event. Serpent dominates chassis count at large race events with ease. Lastly, Why I race Serpent Products Simple, they make top level race proven kits and then back them up with the best support I personally have seen from any other company. To me the kits sell themselves. Everything is engineered to be a race machine and the quality of parts is matched by few company's. While top tier quality is easy for these top brands to achieve the support structure is not. In my own personal experience Serpent America/Desoto Racing has gone well out of their way to ensure I am getting the experience with the Cobra GT as they have designed it. I have spent time trackside with both Joaquin and Paolo who both treated me very well. I have also spent a decent amount of time on the phone with Paolo as he has helped me take my car and motors to the next level. From the top level to the Team Drivers these guys are the best in my opinion. They continuously demonstrate what kind of Team I desire to be a part of. Thank you Serpent America and Desoto Racing for your continued support. Verdict: Serpent Cobra GT by a landslide :nod: Evangelos, Just read Terrible Ty's post again and close the thread, Period! |
Originally Posted by evangelos
(Post 13111953)
I trust the guys I will be racing with and both said the brakes and housing (metal) need to upgraded on both cars.
Although both chassis are very race competent it appears it would cost less with the Kyosho since it has been around for so long. I do not want to pour more money than I have to the 1st year back regarding the electronics. How good are the RTR radios / servos in these kits? Kyosho engine wont see a break-in but shocks will be an issue and was told revo 3.3 shocks have been shown to work well everything else seems race ready. Serpent on the other hand will require more $$$ overall. Longer chassis, drive shafts. Note: We have a permanent track 1.5hrs away and its large at Sanair raceway. This is not the place most of my/our time will be spent as we have a simple painted down track for every day use. Will the short chassis put me in such a disadvantage seeing I have been away for 15 yrs or so?? I feel like I am being tugged back and forth because I raced Serpents for the last 3 years before taking time off and before the Serpent I was racing the Inferno off road for 4 years. Now we have the GT class which fits in perfectly to race in uneven surfaces not like the 1/8, 1/10 on-roads. And I want to get back slowly ($$) hence the RTR. Seams like if I would have the radio gear the serpent would be the obvious choice or am I deceiving myself with that as well?? Can you guys sense my frustration and some anxiety? Your first statement is it appears it will cost less to get a Kyosho since it has been around so long. Here is the thing... Like pointed out by Yb2fast the Kyosho was not designed for the track. With that thought in mind the Kyosho also lacks the durability of the Serpent. There are also so many mickey mouse tricks like splash guards, springs between brake pads, differential shimming and so much more to get the Kyosho even close to the Serpent. The electronics that come with the RTR Kyosho are throw in the garbage if you are racing. Sounds rough but it is my experience. The Serpent on the other hand is a flat out tank. My original chassis from right after they were released is still being raced today. Not a single broken arm or anything like that. On the Serpent you replace worn out parts not broken parts. Brake shoes once a year, clutch shoes, spur gears if you goof your mesh and maybe clutch bearings like any 8th scale race car. The factor Serpent has is yes you pay more up front but what you get is that much better. I have abused the living day lights out of the Serpent and so has everyone else I race with. I still have the arms and other spares I bought when I got my first kit years ago. I started with the GT2 Inferno RTR as many have. I pored so much money into that car and flat out got destroyed by the Team C. I broke parts often, I didn't know how to shim the diff correctly so I ate diffs often, overall it was very expensive for me starting out. Then I built my first Serpent and all the tricks I had to engineer on the Kyosho were standard parts on the Serpent. Everything that has high mass is low as possible, anything up high was light as possible, I was set aside. Any question I had on the build I had answers to right here on RCTech from Factory drivers. Then I started beating up on the thing and it just kept taking everything I could throw at it. I was so use to spending money I started to get option parts for the Serpent and it got even better. For the money the Serpent Cobra GT is the best option no doubt. I cannot name one person I know who has broken arms or anything like that. With the Serpent that extra change goes to making the car better not rebuilding. There is no disadvantage to short chassis what so ever. You gain significantly more time with high corner speeds than you do down the back straight. The long chassis does not hold a candle to the short in any race environment. The Serpent RTR comes with rebranded Savox servos that actually have the speeds and torque a GT racer wants. Cant go wrong here. There is no deception here, I am being completely honest with my personal experience as a serious racer. I started at the bottom with the GT2 and made my way up to becoming a Sponsored Driver with the Serpent Cobra GT. I am very passionate about RC especially nitro. I go way out of my way to do what I can so you will have as big of smile on your face as I do while we race cars together. You will have a significantly better experience with the Serpent hands down. Any questions you may have you can go to the Cobra GT thread and fire away, I monitor it regularly. Jump on over and take a look, the support is there and with open arms. Keep in mind there are more options than just the Kyosho and the Serpent. I hope Marcus chimes in about the Team C and Grenade is spot on about the OFNA. You are coming in at the best time, the class is growing like a weed and to me is more fun than it has ever been. Thank you for your interest and I look forward to maybe rubbing doors with you in the future. Ty Jacobs |
I'd go Serpent. If you really need a Kyosho IGT2, I have one for sale with all the needed upgrades.
|
Originally Posted by TerribleTy
(Post 13112336)
You are coming in at the best time, the class is growing like a weed and to me is more fun than it has ever been. Ty Jacobs Really? Who died and made you a historian? :lol:
Originally Posted by Jspeed
(Post 6603344)
OK, GT racers of the world.....
The Ipanema Sports 2010 GT World Championships is a "Sold-Out" show! We have 40 racers in GT1 Open and 60 racers in GT2 Spec. The waiting list in GT1 Open has racers on it and GT2 Spec should get some action soon too. All pre-registered racer entry payments are due on November 28, 2009. After that date we will open registration spots starting from the top to waiting list racers. We do not want to have more than 100 racers total for the event. All pre-registered racers are urged to secure their spots before the end of pre-registration period. Good luck, see you all at Homestead/Miami Speedway! :) GT1 Open Class 1. Juan Tejero GT1 Open Peru P 2. Michael Haley GT1 Open USA P 3. Deshun Dash GT1 Open USA 4. Todd Satkunas GT1 Open USA P 5. Jose Baquero GT1 Open Venezuela P 6. Salvatore Sortino GT1 Open Venezuela P 7. Paul Roberts GT1 Open USA P 8. Jeff Vargas GT1 Open USA P 9. Partricio Concha GT1 Open Chile P 10. Tim Phanidasak GT1 Open USA P 11. Romulo Arcia GT1 Open Venezuela P 12. Steve Miles GT1 Open USA P 13. Jeff Green GT1 Open USA P 14. Juan Luis Larrabure GT1 Open Peru P 15. Miguel Daumont GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 16. Eduardo Aparo Rizzi GT1 Open Venezuela P 17. Tori Santiago GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 18. Tommy Bond GT1 Open USA P 19. Gus Wood GT1 Open USA P 20. Luis Pineda GT1 Open Mexico P 21. Ronnie Setser GT1 Open USA 22. Mark Borchert GT1 Open USA P P 23. Luis Ramos GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 24. Andy Liu GT1 Open USA P 25. Julio Avila GT1 Open - Puerto Rico P 26. Pablo Riveros GT1 Open Chile P 27. Reinaldo Gil GT1 Open Chile 28. Rodrigo Cartergianni GT1 OpePn Chile P 29. Jaime E. Negron GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 30. Fernando Requejo GT1 Open Venezuela 31. Diron West GT1 Open USA P 32. Eggie Betancourt GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 33. Demonte Thornton GT1 Open USA P 34. Joerg Schaedler GT1 Open Mexico P 35. Todd Marshall GT1 Open USA P 36. Edwin Ortiz GT1 Open Puerto Rico P 37. Rudolf Nicholson GT1 Open St.Maarten Netherlands Antilles 38. Gary Beauperthuy GT1 Open St.Maarten Netherlands Antilles 39. Steven Jackson GT1 Open USA 40. Mauricio Ritzman GT1 Open Brazil P GT1 Open class entries are full. GT2 Spec Class 1. Carl Edwards GT2 Spec USA P 2. Juan Tejero GT2 Spec Peru P 3. Juan Luis Larrabure GT2 Spec Peru P 4. Todd Satkunas GT2 Spec USA P 5. Marcus Vinicius da Silva GT2 Spec Brazil P 6. Rich Esposito GT2 Spec USA P 7. Juan Blaylock GT2 Spec USA P 8. Fritz Adolph GT2 Spec USA P 9. Mike Lyday GT2 Spec USA P 10. Bernie Hoogstra GT2 Spec USA P 11. David Mathews GT2 Spec USA P 12. Juan Aramburo GT2 Spec Mexico P 13. Juan Aramburo Jr. GT2 Spec Mexico P 14. Josue Escamilla GT2 Spec Mexico P 15. Erick Garcia GT2 Spec Mexico P 16. David Ortiz GT2 Spec Mexico P 17. Paul Roberts GT2 Spec USA P 18. Tim Phanidasak GT2 Spec USA 19. Cuauhtemoc Medal Medellin GT2 Spec Mexico P 20. Omar Horta GT2 Spec Mexico P 21. Miguel Lopez Alcala GT2 Spec Mexico P 22, Joerg Schaedler GT2 Spec Mexico P 23. Kyle Green GT2 Spec USA P 24. Eduardo Martinez GT2 Spec Mexico P 25. Alferatt Vidal Repetto GT2 Spec Peru P 26. Victor Babani GT2 Spec Mexico P 27. Hector Suarez GT2 Spec Mexico P 28. Charro Rivas GT2 Spec Mexico P 29. Partricio Concha GT2 Spec Chile 30. Raul Rivera GT2 Spec Mexico P 31. Rafael Chapa GT2 Spec Mexico P 32. Antonio Lorca GT2 Spec Mexico P 33. Gerardo Sanchez GT2 Spec Mexico P 34. Luis Pineda GT2 Spec Mexico P 35. Gus Wood GT2 Spec USA P 36. Ronnie Setser GT2 Spec USA 37. Steve Nguyen GT2 Spec USA 38. Gary Strainer GT2 Spec USA P 39. Abel Elizondo GT2 Spec Mexico P 40. Guillermo Cadena GT2 Spec Mexico P 41. Jeff Green GT2 Spec USA P 42. Michael Frazier GT2 Spec USA 43. Diego Belmonte GT2 Spec Mexico P 44. Juan Guillermo Garcia Pantoja GT2 Spec Mexico P 45. Jose Luis Garcia Dominguez GT2 Spec Mexico P 46. Sandro Diez GT2 Spec Peru 47. Todd Marshall GT2 Spec USA P 48. Todd Forcione GT2 Spec USA P 49. Elias Shaooli GT2 Spec Mexico P 50. Erick Nunez GT2 Spec Mexico P 51. Gerardo Campos Chavez GT2 Spec Mexico P 52. Ricardo Rosas GT2 Spec Mexico 53. Mario Ortega GT2 Spec Mexico P 54. Paulo Segurao GT2 Spec Mexico 55. Juan Carlos González Amorrortu GT2 Spec Mexico 56. Carlos Davila GT2 Spec Peru P 57. L. Kurt Shaw GT2 Spec USA P 58. Joan Lopez GT2 Spec Republica Dominicana 59. Fernando Lopez GT2 Spec Republica Dominicana 60. David Warr GT2 Spec USA P The GT2 Spec class is now complete! ( We are now accepting waiting list entries in both GT1 Open & GT2 Spec classes.) www.gtworldchampionships.com |
Originally Posted by Yb2fast
(Post 13111157)
and lets not forget Jeff Vargas from Ipanema for really getting GT racing to what it is right now! My .02 cents..... |
I salute Jeff for that Miami race and I attended it. It was a big fun event. I have to agree with Ty that the quality of equipment and racers is much better than it has ever been.
|
Yb2fast,
At the 2012 Byron's Challenge in Chicago, I finished 6th in the GT A-main with basically a RTR Kyosho GT2. My car was stock chassis, stock plastic shocks with kit springs, stock shock towers and chassis braces. The only things that I added were as follows: 1. Straight cut ring/pinion gears in the diffs 2. Ipanema Blackhawk transmission w/ center CVDs 3. Werks B5 engine with Werks 2013 pipe So, you don't necessarily need to "bling out" a Kyosho chassis to be competitive/hang with the other cars. Yes, I was still rocking the stock dogbones on all four corners!!! I worked more on car setup and choosing the right tire shores for the track conditions and temps. I also don't go "balls out" in the beginning of long mains; just pace myself because there will be some racers that will tap out during those mains for mechanical/technical reasons. |
Originally Posted by spooky 1
(Post 13115027)
I
salute Jeff for that Miami race and I attended it. It was a big fun event. I have to agree with Ty that the quality of equipment and racers is much better than it has ever been. Sure, there’s guys are running those hi-dollar modified engines and adjustable clutches, those silly soft tires that wear out and cost racers a small fortune every weekend, but lap times aren’t that much faster than they were, are they? What were the fastest lap times at the most recent Homestead race, with all those “Pro” drivers? You know, all those guys that said GT was a stupid idea when we started the class and wouldn't get caught dead racing with us? |
Originally Posted by JLock
(Post 13115104)
Yb2fast,
At the 2012 Byron's Challenge in Chicago, I finished 6th in the GT A-main with basically a RTR Kyosho GT2. My car was stock chassis, stock plastic shocks with kit springs, stock shock towers and chassis braces. The only things that I added were as follows: 1. Straight cut ring/pinion gears in the diffs 2. Ipanema Blackhawk transmission w/ center CVDs 3. Werks B5 engine with Werks 2013 pipe So, you don't necessarily need to "bling out" a Kyosho chassis to be competitive/hang with the other cars. Yes, I was still rocking the stock dogbones on all four corners!!! I worked more on car setup and choosing the right tire shores for the track conditions and temps. I also don't go "balls out" in the beginning of long mains; just pace myself because there will be some racers that will tap out during those mains for mechanical/technical reasons. Yb2fast, There was a bunch of guys that cast their Kyosho's aside and spent big coin on the latest & greatest. Then here comes Jlock from dead last starting position (after bumping into the a-main) with his stock dog bone Kyosho Inferno sporting the old blue chassis. If I'm not mistaken there was 12 cars in the main, a bunch of the "faster" guys cars crashed out, broke stuff, blew their mod's up or wore their soft tires out..... and here comes Jlock, not a problem at all. He was turning faster lap times with every new lap. If the race would have gone a real man's 60 minutes, instead of the light-weight 40 minutes, I bet he would have made the podium with his" old outdated" car. lol :nod: Too funny :lol: |
Originally Posted by Jspeed
(Post 13115143)
Thanks Gus, but what has really changed?
Sure, there’s guys are running those hi-dollar modified engines and adjustable clutches, those silly soft tires that wear out and cost racers a small fortune every weekend, but lap times aren’t that much faster than they were, are they? What were the fastest lap times at the most recent Homestead race, with all those “Pro” drivers? You know, all those guys that said GT was a stupid idea when we started the class and wouldn't get caught dead racing with us? Jeff do you remember the count of 'factory drivers' from back then ??? |
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