Mugen MTX-3
09-09-2002, 06:10 AM
#61
AMG racer
tell me how the TC3 has revolutionized TC?
All I have seen so far is a few fastest laps, but not one major win.
You know why?
Because that's all the car is good for, fast single laps.
Face it, AE took the drive train and the dimensions and materials of their electric car which simply cannot take the abuse of a 20 minute + main.
The drive train is not up for the power a strong .12 throws at it.
Before you ask, yes I do have one.
Good qualifying car, just not for the long races.....
All I have seen so far is a few fastest laps, but not one major win.
You know why?
Because that's all the car is good for, fast single laps.
Face it, AE took the drive train and the dimensions and materials of their electric car which simply cannot take the abuse of a 20 minute + main.
The drive train is not up for the power a strong .12 throws at it.
Before you ask, yes I do have one.
Good qualifying car, just not for the long races.....
09-09-2002, 07:36 AM
#62
Well said Stefan. Couldn't have said it better.
The NTC3 is a nice car but it is not a revolution. When a car strips a metal bevel gear everytime it does more than 5 mins there is something terribly wrong with the design. Oh, I know. Shaft drive cars are for the .12 pullstart class. They were not designed to take the abuse of a pure racing engine.
If shaft drive was the way to go then why have Serpent or Mugen not made there top range cars that way, or even Yokomo or the other new top cars. All belt drive and lasting more than 5 mins.
Ah well, I got to get back to the drawing board. I have a revolution to finish.
The NTC3 is a nice car but it is not a revolution. When a car strips a metal bevel gear everytime it does more than 5 mins there is something terribly wrong with the design. Oh, I know. Shaft drive cars are for the .12 pullstart class. They were not designed to take the abuse of a pure racing engine.
If shaft drive was the way to go then why have Serpent or Mugen not made there top range cars that way, or even Yokomo or the other new top cars. All belt drive and lasting more than 5 mins.
Ah well, I got to get back to the drawing board. I have a revolution to finish.
09-09-2002, 07:45 AM
#63
09-09-2002, 08:46 AM
#64
NTC3
Come on guys, the NTC3 is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I race mine in 15-20 min. mains almost every weekend and I'm a novice (lots of crashes,ect.). The only problem I have yet to figure out is how to keep the ring gear on the one-way from stripping and yes, I do attribute this to the shaft drive. Other than that everything else is just common RC car stuff. I have built 3 kits, and have at least 5 fellow club members that I race with every weekend that own this car. None of us have this poor of an opinion about AE or their cars. No, Associated didn't win the Nationals, but they did TQ, and take 5 out of the top 8 spots. What other company can make this claim? No one else had more than 2 of their cars even qualify for that main. For a first year car you cannot deny that is awesome. AE has had their bugs to work out just like everyone else, give them and their car a break. Don't give up on a car that you've only had 3 months to figure out how to get to work properly, theres always next season. As I said in an earlier post, I think the Mugen looks awesome, so does the Koyosho V-One RR GT. If I had unlimited funds, I'd get them both. But why sell everything you own at a severe loss when you have a perfectly capable car in hand? Just my opinion, thanks for letting me vent.
09-09-2002, 08:58 AM
#65
man that's about the most diplomatic post I've read in a car war thread ntc3! I agree 100% with everything you said. NTC3 needs its bugs worked out but it is still a very good car. the quality isn't there yet, but It will be in due time when all you die-hards figure it out. Many people jumped off the bandwagon (including me) as fast as they jumped on. As far as it revolutionizing 200mm - errr...uh.....
09-09-2002, 09:19 AM
#66
Thank ya...Thank ya very much (in my best Elvis voice).
Go Associated.
Go Associated.
09-09-2002, 09:47 AM
#67
Guys,
I agree that the TC3 is a very well handling car, BUT:
1.) The materials used for the suspension (milded fiber reinforced PC) is not suited for those fast and heavy cars. parts breakage is the major problem for the regular club racer. I'm a pretty decent driver and I don't hit much, so I didn't have that problem, but I see novices that go nuts each weekend because after each hit , they have to go to the hobby shop to get shock towers and tranny cases. I've seen a lot of them quitting already.Also the rear toe in setup is crap. One slight brush and you geometry is gone.
The stiff brittle material is responsible for the very responsive handling of the TC3, it's just not strong enough.
Don't you think companies like Serpent or Mugen wouldn't have used this material if it was suited for this kind of car?
2.) The drive train was designed for electric racing. It is just not strong enough for a modern .12, especially with a one way in it. Secondly, the way the engine sits in the car, is stupid.
The carb sits behind the head where all the heat exits, that's why most people I know have vapor lock problems, as did Baker and Pavidis at the nationals.
If AE's only concern wouldn't have been to use existing parts, they only had to design stronger diff cases in which the ring and pinion would have been the other way around.
This way, the engine could be sitting on the right side (passenger) with the carb facing forward. This would also allow us to use regular pipes .
3.) the tank, nuff said?
This is NOT supposed to be bashing, these are just my thoughts after owning a MTX2 for 2 years and a NTC3 for only a few weeks.
We will see how the Team will fair at the worlds next week. I suppose we will see the exact same thing than we saw at the nats.
The TC3 will be dominating qualifying but fail in the main.
This time though, Serpent and Mugen will have their new cars and their real top drivers other than Burch.....
Should be interesting
1.) The materials used for the suspension (milded fiber reinforced PC) is not suited for those fast and heavy cars. parts breakage is the major problem for the regular club racer. I'm a pretty decent driver and I don't hit much, so I didn't have that problem, but I see novices that go nuts each weekend because after each hit , they have to go to the hobby shop to get shock towers and tranny cases. I've seen a lot of them quitting already.Also the rear toe in setup is crap. One slight brush and you geometry is gone.
The stiff brittle material is responsible for the very responsive handling of the TC3, it's just not strong enough.
Don't you think companies like Serpent or Mugen wouldn't have used this material if it was suited for this kind of car?
2.) The drive train was designed for electric racing. It is just not strong enough for a modern .12, especially with a one way in it. Secondly, the way the engine sits in the car, is stupid.
The carb sits behind the head where all the heat exits, that's why most people I know have vapor lock problems, as did Baker and Pavidis at the nationals.
If AE's only concern wouldn't have been to use existing parts, they only had to design stronger diff cases in which the ring and pinion would have been the other way around.
This way, the engine could be sitting on the right side (passenger) with the carb facing forward. This would also allow us to use regular pipes .
3.) the tank, nuff said?
This is NOT supposed to be bashing, these are just my thoughts after owning a MTX2 for 2 years and a NTC3 for only a few weeks.
We will see how the Team will fair at the worlds next week. I suppose we will see the exact same thing than we saw at the nats.
The TC3 will be dominating qualifying but fail in the main.
This time though, Serpent and Mugen will have their new cars and their real top drivers other than Burch.....
Should be interesting
09-09-2002, 10:20 AM
#68
Tech Apprentice
T/C 3
Yea,I fixed all my Assoc. problems!!!
I sold it. (WHY) because if you ask Assoc. what there going to do to fix the problems. NOTHING BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROBLEM!
I've been doing this a long time and it ashame that a company ask respected as Assoc. won't fess up to the problems (THERE NOT HAVING). Guess I'll just have to buy another Mugen.
I sold it. (WHY) because if you ask Assoc. what there going to do to fix the problems. NOTHING BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROBLEM!
I've been doing this a long time and it ashame that a company ask respected as Assoc. won't fess up to the problems (THERE NOT HAVING). Guess I'll just have to buy another Mugen.
09-09-2002, 01:26 PM
#69
Tech Addict
Don't you think companies like Serpent or Mugen wouldn't have used this material if it was suited for this kind of car?
Mugen did try this type of material in the first run of MTX-2s. I know, because I have one. As soon as the car was officially released, my order went in to Mugen. Anyway, the suspension parts were very brittle and broke if you looked to hard at them. The excuse I got from Mugen was the plastic was made like that to reduce flex in the suspension. It was beautiful for consistent settings, but for God sake, don't let anyone brush you. If you boiled the parts, things were slightly better, atleast you could do some slight "rubbing". After considerable grief from people (including the team drivers), Mugen changed the process and made the parts less brittle, but still able to hold consistent settings. I think they learned their lesson. It's a shame AE can't learn from others mistakes.
I still wouldn't buy the NTC3, but I think the car does have potential. Either way once the MTX-3 is released you'll see plenty of NTC3s on Ebay!!
Mugen did try this type of material in the first run of MTX-2s. I know, because I have one. As soon as the car was officially released, my order went in to Mugen. Anyway, the suspension parts were very brittle and broke if you looked to hard at them. The excuse I got from Mugen was the plastic was made like that to reduce flex in the suspension. It was beautiful for consistent settings, but for God sake, don't let anyone brush you. If you boiled the parts, things were slightly better, atleast you could do some slight "rubbing". After considerable grief from people (including the team drivers), Mugen changed the process and made the parts less brittle, but still able to hold consistent settings. I think they learned their lesson. It's a shame AE can't learn from others mistakes.
I still wouldn't buy the NTC3, but I think the car does have potential. Either way once the MTX-3 is released you'll see plenty of NTC3s on Ebay!!
09-09-2002, 03:25 PM
#70
NTC3
Stefan,
First, let me start by saying that I’ve used all the graphite parts from day one. I have never (never) had one of these parts fail in a crash. The only “plastic” part that has ever broken has been the top of the front diff case.
I do agree that AE’s flush mount is not the best. It could have been done better. Perhaps by simply recessing the bottom shock tower mounting holes, so that they “snap” over the diff case mounting bosses (just a thought).
Have any of the Novices that you’ve observed used the shock tower “fix” that we all have? Most don’t, I helped a fellow racer 2 weeks ago in Cleveland by making the suggestion and giving him the longer bolts. He spent the rest of the day racing, not wrenching.
As far as the drive train goes, have you ever seen anything, other than the one-way ring & pinion, fail on this car? I’ll agree that the shaft drive makes it difficult for a plastic one-way to survive with a 1 to 1.5hp engine. In the event of a crash, or being pinned against a board, where’s all that power supposed to go? There’s no belt to skip, or diff to slip, so something’s got to give. The ring and pinion are going go! I have never seen a NTC3 diff fail. I personally will be interested to see if AE uses the one-ways or the diffs in front this weekend. Speaking of the drive train (or the entire car for that matter), what “existing” parts have been carried over from the electric TC3? Besides the diff cases, which by the way are in fact redesigned, I count…none!
As far as the tank goes, do the mod, cut down the hose lengths, don’t crank it down to the chassis, it works.
I haven’t (nor have any of the NTC3’s I’ve seen raced) had any problems with the way the engines mounted. Don’t you think if this was an issue it would keep all these guys from being so fast and TQ’ing all the time? Pavidis and Baker still finished 6th & 7th respectively. Darn good in my opinion against the best racers in the country. The last two big Ohio races, Race Ohio & the Mid West Series, where both TQ’d and won by NTC3’s.
I understand you’re not trying to bash and believe me I’m trying hard not to be biased. I just don’t honestly think you’ve given the car a chance. You said your self you’ve only had the car a few weeks. I’ve had my first one since last December.
With all that said (phew!), next week will be exciting, and I will be rooting for the home team, Team Associated.
First, let me start by saying that I’ve used all the graphite parts from day one. I have never (never) had one of these parts fail in a crash. The only “plastic” part that has ever broken has been the top of the front diff case.
I do agree that AE’s flush mount is not the best. It could have been done better. Perhaps by simply recessing the bottom shock tower mounting holes, so that they “snap” over the diff case mounting bosses (just a thought).
Have any of the Novices that you’ve observed used the shock tower “fix” that we all have? Most don’t, I helped a fellow racer 2 weeks ago in Cleveland by making the suggestion and giving him the longer bolts. He spent the rest of the day racing, not wrenching.
As far as the drive train goes, have you ever seen anything, other than the one-way ring & pinion, fail on this car? I’ll agree that the shaft drive makes it difficult for a plastic one-way to survive with a 1 to 1.5hp engine. In the event of a crash, or being pinned against a board, where’s all that power supposed to go? There’s no belt to skip, or diff to slip, so something’s got to give. The ring and pinion are going go! I have never seen a NTC3 diff fail. I personally will be interested to see if AE uses the one-ways or the diffs in front this weekend. Speaking of the drive train (or the entire car for that matter), what “existing” parts have been carried over from the electric TC3? Besides the diff cases, which by the way are in fact redesigned, I count…none!
As far as the tank goes, do the mod, cut down the hose lengths, don’t crank it down to the chassis, it works.
I haven’t (nor have any of the NTC3’s I’ve seen raced) had any problems with the way the engines mounted. Don’t you think if this was an issue it would keep all these guys from being so fast and TQ’ing all the time? Pavidis and Baker still finished 6th & 7th respectively. Darn good in my opinion against the best racers in the country. The last two big Ohio races, Race Ohio & the Mid West Series, where both TQ’d and won by NTC3’s.
I understand you’re not trying to bash and believe me I’m trying hard not to be biased. I just don’t honestly think you’ve given the car a chance. You said your self you’ve only had the car a few weeks. I’ve had my first one since last December.
With all that said (phew!), next week will be exciting, and I will be rooting for the home team, Team Associated.
09-09-2002, 04:03 PM
#71
Tech Addict
I have never seen a NTC3 diff fail.
I do not own the car, so I'm only speaking from what I've seen & heard. Plenty of people are blowing diffs, busting drive cups, and busting drive shafts with the high power engines. Just about everyone locally is raising hell about those 3 problems. I've also seen a few posts on various boards about those same 3 issues. It is my understanding the diff gears/rings & drive cups have to be replaced with steel units. I don't know what they're doing about the driveshafts.
I was actually considering buying a NTC3 as a backup car until I heard about these problems. While waiting for Associated to correct the problems, Mugen announced the MTX-3. That was a no brainer for me.
I do not own the car, so I'm only speaking from what I've seen & heard. Plenty of people are blowing diffs, busting drive cups, and busting drive shafts with the high power engines. Just about everyone locally is raising hell about those 3 problems. I've also seen a few posts on various boards about those same 3 issues. It is my understanding the diff gears/rings & drive cups have to be replaced with steel units. I don't know what they're doing about the driveshafts.
I was actually considering buying a NTC3 as a backup car until I heard about these problems. While waiting for Associated to correct the problems, Mugen announced the MTX-3. That was a no brainer for me.
09-09-2002, 04:39 PM
#72
Tech Addict
Shaft drive cars are for the .12 pullstart class. They were not designed to take the abuse of a pure racing engine.
and you said you are designing a new nirto TC?
09-09-2002, 04:41 PM
#73
I've read every post reguarding the NTC3 on this site, the HPI site, the RC Car Action site, and the Associated site. To the best of my memory, other than specific one-way related problems, I haven't read anything about blown diffs, broken drive cups(?), or broken drive shafts(?). I have not personally seen or heard from any fellow racers about this either. I currently run an IRS electric TC3 front drive cup in one of my NTC3's with the FT blue alum drive shaft and the stock plastic brake hub. I own and have used the Hardcore alum brake hub & driveshaft , and the GPM driveshaft as well. The only parts to wear are in fact the aluminum parts, similar to what you'd see in an electric TC3 with aluminum outdrives and no pin cushions. I have yet to see any aftermarket company offering steel drivecups, let alone steel (or any other metal/alloy) ring & pinion gears for the NTC3. If you or anyone else has that info. pass it on, I'd gladly volunteer to be the test pilot.
09-09-2002, 05:43 PM
#74
Lets go back to MTX-3 !! we shouldnt let NTC3 spoils this thread !
Last edited by Manticore; 09-09-2002 at 06:10 PM.
09-09-2002, 05:48 PM
#75
Tech Addict
yes yes! MTX-3 !
i am sure Manticore is getting one....
me too...
i am sure Manticore is getting one....
me too...