How to: Saucing foam tyres 1/8
08-11-2012, 07:24 PM
#46
Tech Apprentice
Lg vs capricorn Additive
Lg vs capricorn Additive
Which for 1/10 nitro would last longer?? and work better in high heat temps.
Which for 1/10 nitro would last longer?? and work better in high heat temps.
08-11-2012, 07:42 PM
#47
08-11-2012, 08:53 PM
#48
Tech Apprentice
08-12-2012, 06:56 PM
#49
Youch .. that is hot!! I ran the enetti's this weekend w/ a variety of compounds including my own and I can say they are a semi porous rubber so my opinion (again opinion) is the Liquid gravity will soak into the rubber faster and provide equal grip to the capricorn additive I've used the capricorn additive on Matrix and Contact tires and it is very consistent when applied correctly. It also doesn't boil or over heat early on in the run.
Again my opinion on your question is to try the LG first, following the steps earlier in this thread. If you find that you don't have enough grip try the Capricorn but allow more time for the additive to soak into the tire, or use the massage method and then put the tires in the sun.
Both additives will work well in the temperature range you've described. The Blue Diamond was 115* to 130* track temp this weekend with 74 to 85* ambient temp and from 40% to 90% humidity.
I asked allot of questions, and there were allot of compounds on hand (including my own) all seemed to do well and there were people who were actually following this thread to my surprise haha!! The results were favorable for me in 1/8 as my compound was on many of the cars in the A, in GT also my compound was on many of the cars in the A, 1/10 was very mixed. Regardless of what you read, people use additives, and they are getting very good at applying it and knowing when to apply it.
It seems that the driving style coupled with tire brand and car setup really has a HUGE impact on how much traction you really want to have in 1/10 there were some using light sauce, half the tire, on the rears no fronts, on the fronts no rears, but one consistent thread, just about everyone tried additives, at least once. I know of at least one fast guy not running any additive at all, and he was SUPER fast
!
UPDATE ON STICK TO THE CEILING: It failed. Miserably. Running super high grip on a medium to high grip surface spells doom for 1/8 tires. They wear at close to 3x the rate of normal tires w/ no additive. In 5 minutes they lost close to 5MM on the sweeper side no good
. So .. that formula went in the books as a failure for 1/8. Some of the tires came off visibly glazed from being overheated (yup foams overheat the tires were hot to the touch and uncomfortable to leave your fingers on) and some came off as if someone crazed animal was biting at them. What about 1/10 you ask .. mixed bag. It tended to pick up any dust or tire "clag" that was off line, and HOLD it. Meaning it didn't fling off like normal. It actually formed a sort of coating on the surface of the tire, not unlike the over heat glaze but it was visibly different. You could see it was made of balled up bits of dust and rubber. So in 1/10 it was a hung jury, it provided lots of grip and people literally rolled on the straight trying to pass slower cars (however this was during happy hour yesterday when grip was amazing!). I can't reccomend it just yet because of the fact it picks up so much crud and keeps it on the tire. If you ran on a low grip parking lot for instance you'd be in for a bad day.
Stay tuned more to come ....
Again my opinion on your question is to try the LG first, following the steps earlier in this thread. If you find that you don't have enough grip try the Capricorn but allow more time for the additive to soak into the tire, or use the massage method and then put the tires in the sun.
Both additives will work well in the temperature range you've described. The Blue Diamond was 115* to 130* track temp this weekend with 74 to 85* ambient temp and from 40% to 90% humidity.
I asked allot of questions, and there were allot of compounds on hand (including my own) all seemed to do well and there were people who were actually following this thread to my surprise haha!! The results were favorable for me in 1/8 as my compound was on many of the cars in the A, in GT also my compound was on many of the cars in the A, 1/10 was very mixed. Regardless of what you read, people use additives, and they are getting very good at applying it and knowing when to apply it.
It seems that the driving style coupled with tire brand and car setup really has a HUGE impact on how much traction you really want to have in 1/10 there were some using light sauce, half the tire, on the rears no fronts, on the fronts no rears, but one consistent thread, just about everyone tried additives, at least once. I know of at least one fast guy not running any additive at all, and he was SUPER fast
! UPDATE ON STICK TO THE CEILING: It failed. Miserably. Running super high grip on a medium to high grip surface spells doom for 1/8 tires. They wear at close to 3x the rate of normal tires w/ no additive. In 5 minutes they lost close to 5MM on the sweeper side no good
. So .. that formula went in the books as a failure for 1/8. Some of the tires came off visibly glazed from being overheated (yup foams overheat the tires were hot to the touch and uncomfortable to leave your fingers on) and some came off as if someone crazed animal was biting at them. What about 1/10 you ask .. mixed bag. It tended to pick up any dust or tire "clag" that was off line, and HOLD it. Meaning it didn't fling off like normal. It actually formed a sort of coating on the surface of the tire, not unlike the over heat glaze but it was visibly different. You could see it was made of balled up bits of dust and rubber. So in 1/10 it was a hung jury, it provided lots of grip and people literally rolled on the straight trying to pass slower cars (however this was during happy hour yesterday when grip was amazing!). I can't reccomend it just yet because of the fact it picks up so much crud and keeps it on the tire. If you ran on a low grip parking lot for instance you'd be in for a bad day. Stay tuned more to come ....
08-12-2012, 07:31 PM
#50
Tech Regular
Had some PM's asking about pictures of the tire spinners I've made up , hopefully if I've done this correctly they are below , if not PM me an e-mail addy , that I can figure out
Also a couple of people asked about power source - most guys are running off of a 12 volt power supply or battery but I'm using 4 obsolete 1/12th single cells and the motor doesn't seem to care.
Also a couple of people asked about power source - most guys are running off of a 12 volt power supply or battery but I'm using 4 obsolete 1/12th single cells and the motor doesn't seem to care.
Last edited by Rick Davis; 08-13-2012 at 06:22 AM.
08-13-2012, 09:24 AM
#52
I'm working on how to videos.
Keeping politics aside, my best answer to the question is there is no "best" way.
Unfortunately there are too many variables to have a single surefire way to apply additive and get consistent results. With that being said I've spent a considerable amount of time perfecting different methods for different conditions over the last 29 years I've been racing (in electric additive has been pretty much mandatory since I can remember). I can boil it down into a couple starting points and then we can let the forums take it from there to add more details and you can then make up your mind what you'd like to try.
I treat additives just like any other part of my setup, body shell choice, engine tune or speed controller profile setting. I record what I do in detail so I can repeat it if it ends up working.
A couple of things before you really go nuts
Do's
1. Don’t leave your foam tires w/ additive on them in a tire cooker (electric rubber are fine). Don’t ask me how/why this is important, let’s just say I know first-hand experience why hahaha.
2. Don’t use lacquer thinner or acetone based additive on foam tires, they loosen the glue that holds the tire to rim if you apply the additive correctly.
3. Don’t cheat, if the rules say don’t do it … then don’t do it!
O.k. now the good stuff:
How to apply!!
There will be videos of this very soon.
O.k. on road nitro foam for 1/10 and 1/8 touring
1) For thinner lighter in color (clear or almost clear, free flowing additives) apply to the tire judiciously. I mean you want the tire dripping, this stuff evaporates and leaves behind the chemical part that does the work. So you want that chemical deep in the tire so the more you put on the better your chances of getting it all the way through the rubber and having a consistent feel all the way through your run.
2) For thicker oily almost additives it takes more elbow grease to get it in to the foam and I tend to massage these types of additives in with my hands and then reapply and massage and go at it one last time. This method works especially well on 1/8 tires w/ all that rubber on them.
3) Applying additive to a section of the tire’s face has limited benefits. Nitro cars are heavy, unlike 1/12 pan cars. They put a good deal of pressure on the tire and if you’ve put enough additive on your tire to soak down into the rubber it’s going to make it’s way across the whole tire in a lap or two when the tire heats up. If you don’t want too much grip, try a less aggressive additive, or put less on in general and use the massage method above.
4) Applying additive a few days in advance is a sure fire way to get the additive all the way into the rubber. Using zip lock bags is also a plus. For whatever reason containing the fumes from the evaporating additive seems to make all the processes happen faster.
If you are in a rush:
Massage the additive into the rubber of the tire, and sit them in the sun in a zip lock. For the thicker oil based additives this will cut absorption time drastically! Don’t use a heat gun, you will warp the rim … again don’t ask me how I know =D.
Be mindful!!! If you do not massage the additive in you will wear it all off in the first couple of laps and your run will be inconsistent.
Using a machine will allow you to save your strength. Either application method you should bag your tires after you’ve applied the additive.
Notes:
You can cut tires with additive on them, it just makes more smoke and it’s probably NOT a good idea to be breathing that smoke.
You get out what you put in, just like w/ car maintenance or even the build process. If you rush it or don’t pay attention you will get mixed results. SO … keep an eye out for my videos on the site and youtube.com.
Electric guys are well versed in additive so I’ll just stick to the nitro side.
Again .. DON’T CHEAT!!! If you aren’t supposed to use additive, don’t. If it’s legal by the rules you may also find that additive adds too MUCH traction and have your car flipping off the track going straight!! So use your head maybe people stop making such a big deal out of additive like they did timing in motors and serrated brushes loooong year ago.
Keeping politics aside, my best answer to the question is there is no "best" way.
Unfortunately there are too many variables to have a single surefire way to apply additive and get consistent results. With that being said I've spent a considerable amount of time perfecting different methods for different conditions over the last 29 years I've been racing (in electric additive has been pretty much mandatory since I can remember). I can boil it down into a couple starting points and then we can let the forums take it from there to add more details and you can then make up your mind what you'd like to try.
I treat additives just like any other part of my setup, body shell choice, engine tune or speed controller profile setting. I record what I do in detail so I can repeat it if it ends up working.
A couple of things before you really go nuts
- Know your media
- Harder tires need to be treated differently than softer tires. Rubber tires for electric need to be treated differently than foams. Different BRANDS of rubber behave differently when you treat them.
- Know your additive
- I make 4 additives, mild, medium and i want my car to run on the ceiling, then I make one for electric touring rubber. Know what kind of grip the additive you are using adds, as it affects how and when you apply it.
- Know your conditions
- Cold weather you apply additive differently than in hot weather
- Humidity affects some additives (but not all), and direct sunlight affects ALL additive so be careful where you put your tires and additive bottle.
Do's
- Scratch in a section on your setup sheet for additive that way you know what you did and it’s not black magic.
- Use the same additive for the whole course of a race meet. Don’t change mid meet, that is like getting a new body shell and then not giving it a real shot.
- Take every one’s advice about additive (unless of course they are encouraging you to cheat, then you just punch them in the nose cause cheating is bad for everyone involved) however don’t USE everyone’s advice about additive. If you race and have raced for a while I’m sure you’ve come to realize that people will leave key bits of what they REALLY do out of what they tell you =D. So listen intently but do your own thing.
- Don’t keep switching up brands of tires either rubber composition apparently has a MUCH bigger effect on the consistency of the additive than I’d previously thought. Seriously, if you use Ennetti or Contact or whatever stick with it even when switching additives. And I’d even go as far as to say switch additives BEFORE you switch tire brands!!
- Adding heat to tires with additive is not necessarily a bad thing, but again your mileage may vary.
1. Don’t leave your foam tires w/ additive on them in a tire cooker (electric rubber are fine). Don’t ask me how/why this is important, let’s just say I know first-hand experience why hahaha.
2. Don’t use lacquer thinner or acetone based additive on foam tires, they loosen the glue that holds the tire to rim if you apply the additive correctly.
3. Don’t cheat, if the rules say don’t do it … then don’t do it!
O.k. now the good stuff:
How to apply!!
There will be videos of this very soon.
O.k. on road nitro foam for 1/10 and 1/8 touring
1) For thinner lighter in color (clear or almost clear, free flowing additives) apply to the tire judiciously. I mean you want the tire dripping, this stuff evaporates and leaves behind the chemical part that does the work. So you want that chemical deep in the tire so the more you put on the better your chances of getting it all the way through the rubber and having a consistent feel all the way through your run.
2) For thicker oily almost additives it takes more elbow grease to get it in to the foam and I tend to massage these types of additives in with my hands and then reapply and massage and go at it one last time. This method works especially well on 1/8 tires w/ all that rubber on them.
3) Applying additive to a section of the tire’s face has limited benefits. Nitro cars are heavy, unlike 1/12 pan cars. They put a good deal of pressure on the tire and if you’ve put enough additive on your tire to soak down into the rubber it’s going to make it’s way across the whole tire in a lap or two when the tire heats up. If you don’t want too much grip, try a less aggressive additive, or put less on in general and use the massage method above.
4) Applying additive a few days in advance is a sure fire way to get the additive all the way into the rubber. Using zip lock bags is also a plus. For whatever reason containing the fumes from the evaporating additive seems to make all the processes happen faster.
If you are in a rush:
Massage the additive into the rubber of the tire, and sit them in the sun in a zip lock. For the thicker oil based additives this will cut absorption time drastically! Don’t use a heat gun, you will warp the rim … again don’t ask me how I know =D.
Be mindful!!! If you do not massage the additive in you will wear it all off in the first couple of laps and your run will be inconsistent.
Using a machine will allow you to save your strength. Either application method you should bag your tires after you’ve applied the additive.
Notes:
You can cut tires with additive on them, it just makes more smoke and it’s probably NOT a good idea to be breathing that smoke.
You get out what you put in, just like w/ car maintenance or even the build process. If you rush it or don’t pay attention you will get mixed results. SO … keep an eye out for my videos on the site and youtube.com.
Electric guys are well versed in additive so I’ll just stick to the nitro side.
Again .. DON’T CHEAT!!! If you aren’t supposed to use additive, don’t. If it’s legal by the rules you may also find that additive adds too MUCH traction and have your car flipping off the track going straight!! So use your head maybe people stop making such a big deal out of additive like they did timing in motors and serrated brushes loooong year ago.
08-14-2012, 12:34 AM
#53
08-14-2012, 05:48 AM
#54
Pietsch made 3 tyre stops in the 45 minute EC final last weekend. (that's 4 sets of tyres)
Even in qualifying they ran different tyres in the 3 minute warm up time and changed to their sauced race tyres just before the start, because a.) the wear was too high, and b.) the tyres lost their prime time too soon.
This is all great and we should all be thankful that this has been added to our hobby, which otherwise would be soo simple and boring.
Even in qualifying they ran different tyres in the 3 minute warm up time and changed to their sauced race tyres just before the start, because a.) the wear was too high, and b.) the tyres lost their prime time too soon.
This is all great and we should all be thankful that this has been added to our hobby, which otherwise would be soo simple and boring.
08-15-2012, 01:29 AM
#55
looks like ZOAB 
. Why would someone want to use that kind of surface in rc? (just curious)
. Why would someone want to use that kind of surface in rc? (just curious)
08-15-2012, 01:46 AM
#56
What about treated tires which are not used. Can you put them away for a month to use them on the next race? Do they need to be treated again? can another sause be used on them?
08-15-2012, 03:00 AM
#57
I quote Ilia:
"We went of to the track on monday. It was big with a nice but not special layout. And it cault my attention that they forgot to put on a top layer of asphalt. It was just the rocks underneed. This gave you about 10mm tyre wear in 10min. That’s what they call extreme."
http://teamserpent.com/2012/08/my-eu...portugal-2012/
I don't know what the idea was behind this surface, maybe it was budget related?, I don't know, but I would not be in favor of driving on a track which gives you 10mm of wear in 10 minutes!......
Letting the additive work for an addition 4 weeks, to the next race, will not have a good effect on them I think.....
08-15-2012, 03:23 AM
#58
This will be a major pain in our country, because when treated 2 weeks prior to a race, we don't know what weather it will be, and you might be in the situation you are not going to use these tires because of rain....
Letting the additive work for an addition 4 weeks, to the next race, will not have a good effect on them I think.....
Letting the additive work for an addition 4 weeks, to the next race, will not have a good effect on them I think.....
08-15-2012, 02:16 PM
#59
Yes you can put tires away for the next race, but put them in airtight containers or ziplock bags.
01-15-2013, 10:11 PM
#60
Tech Rookie
Off topic I think but does anyone know where I can purchase just the foam tires without the wheels? I'm restoring an old kyosho fantom and want to use the original wheels and just re-shoe them. Any advice is greatly appreciated!