New Efra rules
02-19-2012, 10:39 PM
#181
Not sure if this is the right thread for it, but I would endorse all this. O.S. 12 TZ and XZ carby's with removable venturis work in these engines, and that would probably be a better choice for more speed. A word of warning though, the standard bearings in this engine will have a shorter life with more revs, but that won't be a problem with bearings meant for TZ or XZ engines.
Kindest regards,
Lars.
Kindest regards,
Lars.
kind of like in go karts.
I think this would be a good idea and allow some of the cost to be minimised. Heck the concept could be taken also to tyres. A specific foam type with a coloured ring to denote a spec tyre. this way the only things that change are the chassis type and body. tyres and motor are at a designated "world spec" so to say.
02-19-2012, 11:02 PM
#182
maybe the governing bodies should get together and come to agreement on the specifications of a "club spec" motor. this way all manufacturers can build a club spec motor with the same specs, and all clubs around the world could have a "club spec" series.
kind of like in go karts.
I think this would be a good idea and allow some of the cost to be minimised. Heck the concept could be taken also to tyres. A specific foam type with a coloured ring to denote a spec tyre. this way the only things that change are the chassis type and body. tyres and motor are at a designated "world spec" so to say.
kind of like in go karts.
I think this would be a good idea and allow some of the cost to be minimised. Heck the concept could be taken also to tyres. A specific foam type with a coloured ring to denote a spec tyre. this way the only things that change are the chassis type and body. tyres and motor are at a designated "world spec" so to say.
02-19-2012, 11:11 PM
#183
if they develop a club spec series then they can determine all parameters of the engine, ie port size, positions, piston design, conrod design, metalaurgy used etc etc. this way if you buy brand X club spec engine you can use parts from any manufacturer as they would be all identical. This sort of engine could be produced very cheaply as it would not change so manufacturers can place baulk orders for the processed metal as a co-op. reducing costs substancially. You could make an engine for peanuts and sell it for $100. Also, There is no reason why the engine can't be competitive. Compression and quality of the metal and fit and finish is what determines a large percentage of the horse power of these engines anyway.
02-20-2012, 03:59 AM
#185
What are we exactly talking about?? Competition level pro-racing or sport level club racing?
Or are you guys planning these to become one and the same in future?
For club racing or entry class, I agree with you, yes!!! good ideas, keep it going...
For world class racing, no no no, never...
-X-
Or are you guys planning these to become one and the same in future?
For club racing or entry class, I agree with you, yes!!! good ideas, keep it going...
For world class racing, no no no, never...
-X-
02-20-2012, 04:01 AM
#186
Nitro racing would be cheaper, more accessable for beginners to enter large scale sanctioend events, highly competitive for a larger amount of newer racers or less experienced racers and costs would be down.
All it takes is imagination, copy some ideas form Karting and other racing formats and representitive bodies who are willing to lay down strong racing laws and regulations.
02-20-2012, 04:29 AM
#187
Don't know about world spec in terms of to be raced at world level, but some more universal 'Sport' IC class would be nice at many levels, though if your talking new engines, with new specs etc for it, that will never happen, and if it did because of tooling costs to create whole new engines, forget it being cheap.
Think as simple as a carb restrictor and control pipe though, and you have something that could actually work, controlled things over the years have worked best when made simple, control how much they can suck and blow, and lots of things even out, or at least enough to create a parity people can live with.
Add in that average Joe can buy any number of engines that already exist, fit the required restrictions and race, remove them and he is open class, nice and simple.
I'm not even sure how all this started though now, I was too lazy to go read the article...
Think as simple as a carb restrictor and control pipe though, and you have something that could actually work, controlled things over the years have worked best when made simple, control how much they can suck and blow, and lots of things even out, or at least enough to create a parity people can live with.
Add in that average Joe can buy any number of engines that already exist, fit the required restrictions and race, remove them and he is open class, nice and simple.
I'm not even sure how all this started though now, I was too lazy to go read the article...
02-20-2012, 04:34 AM
#188
The funny thing is that a year ago I already sugested a "blue printed engine" but it was difficult to manage that with the factories and now the chairman of the EFRA as he is also the chairman of the MACH Heemstede track comes up with this idea and timeline to get it all completed in 2014.
There is only one BUT. Are the drivers willing to take this step? As we can see with the last AGM some things were changed and there is a lot of resistance from the drivers.....
There is only one BUT. Are the drivers willing to take this step? As we can see with the last AGM some things were changed and there is a lot of resistance from the drivers.....
02-20-2012, 06:17 AM
#189
First of all. i dont like the idea of a "spec engine". But, more importantly, we would have drivers complaining that so and so engines must be modified, it allows drivers to say that others might be cheating. No, leave the engine rules the way they are. The thruth is that 1/8th its not supposed to be cheap. It if it were cheap we would get all these inexpeirienced new drivers in it. Let the new drivers get better driving electric cars and sedans, that way when they are ready to move up to 1/8th they have the nessesary skills and equipment to be part of it.
If anything should be done for the accesabilitie(sp?) of gas classes it should be done to the sedans. Thats supposed to be the "entry class". But even then, I dont like sanctioning bodies messing with the engines any more than they already do.
And to be honest, I hate the notion that the cars must be made slower, that takes the fun out of it, and it takes away one of the atractions of the class, at least for me.
These classes will never die, and RC will never become mainstream. Its not the expense of the class that keeps drivers away, its the work that goes behind keeping one of these cars in "race shape", its the diffiulty of tuning engines and breaking them in that keeps people away, not cost IMHO.
Running electric sedan is already more expesive than running 1/8th, new tires every run, new batteries every week, new rotors for the brushless motors, and the expense of trying different rotors to see which one works better for which track and driving style.
If the class is down, IMO it has more to do with the global economy, when money is tight and people dont have jobs the priorities change, RC is, afterall, a luxury.
Lets leave 1/8th the way it is, I dont understand all this effort in changing it. the class has survived decades, the die hards will keep it going and it will always be there for the new drivers that are serious about it, cost is just an excuse for those that dont want to do the work.
If anything should be done for the accesabilitie(sp?) of gas classes it should be done to the sedans. Thats supposed to be the "entry class". But even then, I dont like sanctioning bodies messing with the engines any more than they already do.
And to be honest, I hate the notion that the cars must be made slower, that takes the fun out of it, and it takes away one of the atractions of the class, at least for me.
These classes will never die, and RC will never become mainstream. Its not the expense of the class that keeps drivers away, its the work that goes behind keeping one of these cars in "race shape", its the diffiulty of tuning engines and breaking them in that keeps people away, not cost IMHO.
Running electric sedan is already more expesive than running 1/8th, new tires every run, new batteries every week, new rotors for the brushless motors, and the expense of trying different rotors to see which one works better for which track and driving style.
If the class is down, IMO it has more to do with the global economy, when money is tight and people dont have jobs the priorities change, RC is, afterall, a luxury.
Lets leave 1/8th the way it is, I dont understand all this effort in changing it. the class has survived decades, the die hards will keep it going and it will always be there for the new drivers that are serious about it, cost is just an excuse for those that dont want to do the work.
02-20-2012, 12:11 PM
#190
First of all. i dont like the idea of a "spec engine". But, more importantly, we would have drivers complaining that so and so engines must be modified, it allows drivers to say that others might be cheating. No, leave the engine rules the way they are. The thruth is that 1/8th its not supposed to be cheap. It if it were cheap we would get all these inexpeirienced new drivers in it. Let the new drivers get better driving electric cars and sedans, that way when they are ready to move up to 1/8th they have the nessesary skills and equipment to be part of it.
If anything should be done for the accesabilitie(sp?) of gas classes it should be done to the sedans. Thats supposed to be the "entry class". But even then, I dont like sanctioning bodies messing with the engines any more than they already do.
And to be honest, I hate the notion that the cars must be made slower, that takes the fun out of it, and it takes away one of the atractions of the class, at least for me.
These classes will never die, and RC will never become mainstream. Its not the expense of the class that keeps drivers away, its the work that goes behind keeping one of these cars in "race shape", its the diffiulty of tuning engines and breaking them in that keeps people away, not cost IMHO.
Running electric sedan is already more expesive than running 1/8th, new tires every run, new batteries every week, new rotors for the brushless motors, and the expense of trying different rotors to see which one works better for which track and driving style.
If the class is down, IMO it has more to do with the global economy, when money is tight and people dont have jobs the priorities change, RC is, afterall, a luxury.
Lets leave 1/8th the way it is, I dont understand all this effort in changing it. the class has survived decades, the die hards will keep it going and it will always be there for the new drivers that are serious about it, cost is just an excuse for those that dont want to do the work.
If anything should be done for the accesabilitie(sp?) of gas classes it should be done to the sedans. Thats supposed to be the "entry class". But even then, I dont like sanctioning bodies messing with the engines any more than they already do.
And to be honest, I hate the notion that the cars must be made slower, that takes the fun out of it, and it takes away one of the atractions of the class, at least for me.
These classes will never die, and RC will never become mainstream. Its not the expense of the class that keeps drivers away, its the work that goes behind keeping one of these cars in "race shape", its the diffiulty of tuning engines and breaking them in that keeps people away, not cost IMHO.
Running electric sedan is already more expesive than running 1/8th, new tires every run, new batteries every week, new rotors for the brushless motors, and the expense of trying different rotors to see which one works better for which track and driving style.
If the class is down, IMO it has more to do with the global economy, when money is tight and people dont have jobs the priorities change, RC is, afterall, a luxury.
Lets leave 1/8th the way it is, I dont understand all this effort in changing it. the class has survived decades, the die hards will keep it going and it will always be there for the new drivers that are serious about it, cost is just an excuse for those that dont want to do the work.
I'm gonna speak from experience. Electric sedan Is a lot cheaper 1/8th scale and it's not even close. Nitro is still more fun but the expense is just shocking sometimes.
02-20-2012, 01:01 PM
#191
It is how you deal with it.
Must you buy the most expensive engine or is the one that is a tiny bit "slower" fast enough for you? Do you realy need that word "Tuned" engraved in the head? Do you need to true the tires out of the box to 74mm or even smaller or can you drive some trainings laps on a full tire until they are on the right size? Do you need the most expensive fuel which is mostly tearing down the lifespan or can you run with a cheaper more RTR kind of fuel which does perform as well but saves the engine much longer due the more oil?
Realy, with most people going for the best is more in their mind than that they do gain some performance with such choices....
The costs is just how you create it.....
Must you buy the most expensive engine or is the one that is a tiny bit "slower" fast enough for you? Do you realy need that word "Tuned" engraved in the head? Do you need to true the tires out of the box to 74mm or even smaller or can you drive some trainings laps on a full tire until they are on the right size? Do you need the most expensive fuel which is mostly tearing down the lifespan or can you run with a cheaper more RTR kind of fuel which does perform as well but saves the engine much longer due the more oil?
Realy, with most people going for the best is more in their mind than that they do gain some performance with such choices....
The costs is just how you create it.....
02-20-2012, 01:12 PM
#192
It is how you deal with it.
Must you buy the most expensive engine or is the one that is a tiny bit "slower" fast enough for you? Do you realy need that word "Tuned" engraved in the head? Do you need to true the tires out of the box to 74mm or even smaller or can you drive some trainings laps on a full tire until they are on the right size? Do you need the most expensive fuel which is mostly tearing down the lifespan or can you run with a cheaper more RTR kind of fuel which does perform as well but saves the engine much longer due the more oil?
Realy, with most people going for the best is more in their mind than that they do gain some performance with such choices....
The costs is just how you create it.....
Must you buy the most expensive engine or is the one that is a tiny bit "slower" fast enough for you? Do you realy need that word "Tuned" engraved in the head? Do you need to true the tires out of the box to 74mm or even smaller or can you drive some trainings laps on a full tire until they are on the right size? Do you need the most expensive fuel which is mostly tearing down the lifespan or can you run with a cheaper more RTR kind of fuel which does perform as well but saves the engine much longer due the more oil?
Realy, with most people going for the best is more in their mind than that they do gain some performance with such choices....
The costs is just how you create it.....
Cost of fuel here in the U.S. is pretty much the same from one brand to another.... As for engines, Most have been over $300.00 u.s.
I'm not against nitro but to say that other thriving classes are more expensive is not true.
02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
#193
KEEP THE SPECTACLE, address the OBSTACLE.
The costs of RC models are relatively much cheaper today than they were 30 years ago. The performance options are much more sophisticated, engineered better and there are so many used models being sold cheaply that it's no longer an issue of getting into it, but winning at it.
The majority of nitro RC expense at any large race meet is not in the chassis or engines but in the specialised tools, array of lubricants and oils, truers, setup stations and such that could be solved by a GT shop that offers these services.
In Australia they adopted a 2 Engine 2 rebuild rule. This was put forward in an attempt to curb the top runners from having several engines. In actual fact it made no difference to them and harmed the middle to lower order newcomers who were still building their race equipment who could not afford two new engines and two new rebuild kits and had several older engines to choose from and if they choose the wrong one, it's event over!
I disagree that we should prejudice those who have larger budgets from those who dont. I have also experienced that in my time in RC, those with larger budgets are often willing to help those with smaller budgets.
Ultimately, racing in any form is expensive and those with smaller budgets should be able to rise above their unrealistic dream of winning and settle for a good finish of their own.
Let's not harm the spectacular performance of RC nitro racing because of budgets but look to where we can reduce costs that improve the performance for the newcomers without sand bagging top runners.
If at meetings there were wholesale tyres, glow plugs, fuel, shells that a "GT shop" could true, cut, paint and setup these services would save tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of the drivers in pit lane.
It's not that I can't afford to buy two new engines, it's the fact that I spend more $$ each year in travel, accommodation, and car hire.
Much like camping that is often free, the expenses are getting there and enjoying the destination in comfort and creating an experience. You'll always hear a camper in an uncomfortable tent, bad lighting and poor cooking equipment complain that someone in an expensive camp trailer isn't camping... I think they are, and they loving what they do and getting the most out of their experience!
The majority of nitro RC expense at any large race meet is not in the chassis or engines but in the specialised tools, array of lubricants and oils, truers, setup stations and such that could be solved by a GT shop that offers these services.
In Australia they adopted a 2 Engine 2 rebuild rule. This was put forward in an attempt to curb the top runners from having several engines. In actual fact it made no difference to them and harmed the middle to lower order newcomers who were still building their race equipment who could not afford two new engines and two new rebuild kits and had several older engines to choose from and if they choose the wrong one, it's event over!
I disagree that we should prejudice those who have larger budgets from those who dont. I have also experienced that in my time in RC, those with larger budgets are often willing to help those with smaller budgets.
Ultimately, racing in any form is expensive and those with smaller budgets should be able to rise above their unrealistic dream of winning and settle for a good finish of their own.
Let's not harm the spectacular performance of RC nitro racing because of budgets but look to where we can reduce costs that improve the performance for the newcomers without sand bagging top runners.
If at meetings there were wholesale tyres, glow plugs, fuel, shells that a "GT shop" could true, cut, paint and setup these services would save tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of the drivers in pit lane.
It's not that I can't afford to buy two new engines, it's the fact that I spend more $$ each year in travel, accommodation, and car hire.
Much like camping that is often free, the expenses are getting there and enjoying the destination in comfort and creating an experience. You'll always hear a camper in an uncomfortable tent, bad lighting and poor cooking equipment complain that someone in an expensive camp trailer isn't camping... I think they are, and they loving what they do and getting the most out of their experience!
02-20-2012, 01:51 PM
#194
Let me explain myself,the larger events be it 1/10 and 1/8 should remain untouched.The concept I was talking about is something like the classic 1/8 but with sedans because of the smaller factor and price.The rules are the same as the top tier just to have a upgrade path.So with any 1/10 sedan,any .12 engine(preferably a basic engine),just plop the restrictor on the carb,maybe another on the stinger and off you go.10 years ago ifmar mandated that .12 engines couldn't had scoops and such but you know...So it's a back to beginning of sedan racing this time with foams.
This is what I did when started 1/10:
Used Kyosho RRR WCE from a racer with old servos tires and blitz body - 150€
Graupner servo http://www.graupner.de/en/products/7946/product.aspx - 40.10€
SH .12 engine - around 100€
Tuned pipe - 60€
Rx Tx had lying around so 400€ minimum to start,not bad I say.
This is what I did when started 1/10:
Used Kyosho RRR WCE from a racer with old servos tires and blitz body - 150€
Graupner servo http://www.graupner.de/en/products/7946/product.aspx - 40.10€
SH .12 engine - around 100€
Tuned pipe - 60€
Rx Tx had lying around so 400€ minimum to start,not bad I say.
Last edited by 30Tooth; 02-20-2012 at 02:42 PM.
02-20-2012, 01:56 PM
#195
Let me explain myself,the larger events be it 1/10 and 1/8 should remain untouched.The concept I was talking about is something like the classic 1/8 but with sedans because of the smaller factor and price.The rules are the same as the top tier just to have a upgrade path.So with any 1/10 sedan,any .12 engine(preferably a basic engine),just plop the restrictor on the carb,maybe another on the stinger and off you go.10 years ago ifmar mandated that .12 engines couldn't had scoops and such but you know...So it's a back to beginning of sedan racing this time with foams.
It leads to arguments, finger pointing that some are cheating, even more $$ are spent to get that small amount of performance where in an open class it's about getting that power to ground.
There will always be that one person that will see a chance to win and tune to destruction to achieve it, this then draws the rest of the field into breaking cars to keep up and the expenses keep rising.
The open classes allows individuals to set their own performance level to get what they want out of their racing.