Tire Sauce ... To Do or Not To Do
08-13-2011, 02:20 PM
#106
Suspended
08-13-2011, 03:49 PM
#107
Manufacturer default
Why wouldnt manufacturers compose their foam with the additives for all tyres. If the additives improved performance of the tyres then they would do it at the factory wouldnt they?
The two reasons I see for this not happening are:
1) They know they are breaking the rules and would go out of business doing so.
2) The substances are environmentally dangerous and their staff would become ill and go out of business with law suets.
The two reasons I see for this not happening are:
1) They know they are breaking the rules and would go out of business doing so.
2) The substances are environmentally dangerous and their staff would become ill and go out of business with law suets.
08-13-2011, 03:54 PM
#108
Why wouldnt manufacturers compose their foam with the additives for all tyres. If the additives improved performance of the tyres then they would do it at the factory wouldnt they?
The two reasons I see for this not happening are:
1) They know they are breaking the rules and would go out of business doing so.
2) The substances are environmentally dangerous and their staff would become ill and go out of business with law suets.
The two reasons I see for this not happening are:
1) They know they are breaking the rules and would go out of business doing so.
2) The substances are environmentally dangerous and their staff would become ill and go out of business with law suets.
08-13-2011, 04:09 PM
#109
As for argument that compare it to diff and shock oils, we dont leave trails of the residue on track. Nova, as I said in a previous post, the EP versions some drivers use would peel the skin off my fingers. Would you want your sons to be using that type of substance?
Also the sauced foam streaming onto the hot pipes will also act as a catalyst or burn, and if it's a rubber conditioner, then hell knows how belts will handle it.
I just dont get why some would think that the WHOLE of RC wants this in their garages, on their tracks and amongst their families. If you don't know what's in it or rub your eyes with it all over your hands, then marshals and volunteers and children shouldn't be exposed to it, so don't use it!
08-26-2011, 07:04 AM
#111
Hey guys, just curious... had anyone here actually really tried saucing their tyres?
Does the saucing the tyres make foam tyres wear lesser?
I was thinking, if my local track uses 35 shore all round and the tyre wear is about 2-3mm on every tank, would it be better if i purchase 37 or 40 shore tyres,, sauce them during practice days to get more run time on the tyres with lesser wear but with the same amount of grip. That would be great isn't it?
Does the saucing the tyres make foam tyres wear lesser?
I was thinking, if my local track uses 35 shore all round and the tyre wear is about 2-3mm on every tank, would it be better if i purchase 37 or 40 shore tyres,, sauce them during practice days to get more run time on the tyres with lesser wear but with the same amount of grip. That would be great isn't it?
08-26-2011, 07:10 AM
#112
Hey guys, just curious... had anyone here actually really tried saucing their tyres?
Does the saucing the tyres make foam tyres wear lesser?
I was thinking, if my local track uses 35 shore all round and the tyre wear is about 2-3mm on every tank, would it be better if i purchase 37 or 40 shore tyres,, sauce them during practice days to get more run time on the tyres with lesser wear but with the same amount of grip. That would be great isn't it?
Does the saucing the tyres make foam tyres wear lesser?
I was thinking, if my local track uses 35 shore all round and the tyre wear is about 2-3mm on every tank, would it be better if i purchase 37 or 40 shore tyres,, sauce them during practice days to get more run time on the tyres with lesser wear but with the same amount of grip. That would be great isn't it?
09-01-2011, 10:13 AM
#113
Tech Initiate
Hi everybody,
I take long minutes to read all posts because here in France we have very similar threads on websites. So the question is asked.
My summarize of most issues read :
- it's forbidden at the moment in mainly rules (IFMAR, EFRA...)
- it's hard to control (let say, almost impossible !)
- additives should be dangerous for health
- according to additives it's not so easy to apply and prepare
- some say that it should be an advantage on track, some say not (except for top drivers)
My opinion about this question, knowing that I'm a common driver :
If I decide to not use additives, will I continue to drive miles and miles on week-ends to race and stay at the bottom of the qualification ?
If i decide to try to use additives and have no time to try different brands on track for training session, or no more money to buy different additives, or time to prepare tires, or the good method to apply, compare to others who have these opportunities, will not it be the same as before (miles and miles to stay in bad position) ?
If I find the best mixture that allow me to have best results, will I share it with others ? No, of course but others should think as describe previously !
So that, how many people will stop national or local RC races or stop RC in fact ?
Who wins in this story ?
I'm afraid of one thing, it's generally chemical. OK, brands will win money but for how long. Must we wait an accident or big health problem to ask again for this question. We are not all chemists and certainly not the same meanings than top drivers...
It is already hard for common drivers to fine good set-up, good tires' shore, driving to learn tracks, etc. if we must fine the best additives now..!
How many minutes of my life will I spend to win few seconds on track by using additives. I think nobody can answer except me : stop RC in this condition ! How many people will think like that if it's allow ? Maybe none, maybe a lot. If a lot, who will wins finally...Not RC in fact.
Also, who knows an association ready to organize a national or international race with few drivers ? it's also business for association to have a lot of drivers and I don't speak about local association !
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right but my first pleasure in addition to race is to spend good times with my friends, to have fun and drinks with them, etc...I'm afraid we will spend the RC spirit with such a question...
If additives should be allowed, maybe the best way is to have tires pre prepared by manufacter and agreed by authorities, or : simply (but seems to be utopic now) not allow additives as it is now because I'm not quitly sure that it's a real evolution for mass drivers.
Sorry for this long long post.
Have fun and stay cool.
I take long minutes to read all posts because here in France we have very similar threads on websites. So the question is asked.
My summarize of most issues read :
- it's forbidden at the moment in mainly rules (IFMAR, EFRA...)
- it's hard to control (let say, almost impossible !)
- additives should be dangerous for health
- according to additives it's not so easy to apply and prepare
- some say that it should be an advantage on track, some say not (except for top drivers)
My opinion about this question, knowing that I'm a common driver :
If I decide to not use additives, will I continue to drive miles and miles on week-ends to race and stay at the bottom of the qualification ?
If i decide to try to use additives and have no time to try different brands on track for training session, or no more money to buy different additives, or time to prepare tires, or the good method to apply, compare to others who have these opportunities, will not it be the same as before (miles and miles to stay in bad position) ?
If I find the best mixture that allow me to have best results, will I share it with others ? No, of course but others should think as describe previously !
So that, how many people will stop national or local RC races or stop RC in fact ?
Who wins in this story ?
I'm afraid of one thing, it's generally chemical. OK, brands will win money but for how long. Must we wait an accident or big health problem to ask again for this question. We are not all chemists and certainly not the same meanings than top drivers...
It is already hard for common drivers to fine good set-up, good tires' shore, driving to learn tracks, etc. if we must fine the best additives now..!
How many minutes of my life will I spend to win few seconds on track by using additives. I think nobody can answer except me : stop RC in this condition ! How many people will think like that if it's allow ? Maybe none, maybe a lot. If a lot, who will wins finally...Not RC in fact.
Also, who knows an association ready to organize a national or international race with few drivers ? it's also business for association to have a lot of drivers and I don't speak about local association !
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right but my first pleasure in addition to race is to spend good times with my friends, to have fun and drinks with them, etc...I'm afraid we will spend the RC spirit with such a question...
If additives should be allowed, maybe the best way is to have tires pre prepared by manufacter and agreed by authorities, or : simply (but seems to be utopic now) not allow additives as it is now because I'm not quitly sure that it's a real evolution for mass drivers.
Sorry for this long long post.
Have fun and stay cool.
09-14-2011, 06:15 AM
#114
Very confusing
Jason wrote:
This whole thread is very confusing to me. Maybe its because I've been racing for 30 years and tire sauce has ALWAYS been a given around here?
The only major controversy was the banning of Wintergreen based sauce on indoor tracks - and that's up to the track operator.
Or is this some new kind of treatment that didn't exist before?
Is Suntan lotion banned too? Because I slather that stuff all over my arms and I'm sure some "accidentally" gets on my tires.
I understand banning very dangerous chemicals but I just don't get how you would even begin to police a rule that made everything illegal.
And like lots of rules, it sounds like it would make things more expensive in the long run. And get us back to the days of "special" foam that only certain team drivers can get their hands on.
Not to mention no way to freshen up old tires.
Am is missing something here?
This whole thread is very confusing to me. Maybe its because I've been racing for 30 years and tire sauce has ALWAYS been a given around here?
The only major controversy was the banning of Wintergreen based sauce on indoor tracks - and that's up to the track operator.
Or is this some new kind of treatment that didn't exist before?
Is Suntan lotion banned too? Because I slather that stuff all over my arms and I'm sure some "accidentally" gets on my tires.
I understand banning very dangerous chemicals but I just don't get how you would even begin to police a rule that made everything illegal.
And like lots of rules, it sounds like it would make things more expensive in the long run. And get us back to the days of "special" foam that only certain team drivers can get their hands on.
Not to mention no way to freshen up old tires.
Am is missing something here?
12-08-2011, 04:22 AM
#116
12-08-2011, 04:46 AM
#117
We (about 10 racers) have already decided not to run any EFRA races next year until it's clear how they want to control the saucing.
They've just opened Pandora's box IMHO.
They will never have the equipment to control the substances that they plan to legalize.
Also, for the guys who went to EFRA races, it will be VERY tempting to use what they've learned, on a national basis.
So the unsafety and the bad feeling of being cheated will grow stronger and it will cost us even more racers.
GREAT JOB EFRA!!
12-08-2011, 07:04 AM
#118
Yes, it definately will, in a very negative way.
We (about 10 racers) have already decided not to run any EFRA races next year until it's clear how they want to control the saucing.
They've just opened Pandora's box IMHO.
They will never have the equipment to control the substances that they plan to legalize.
Also, for the guys who went to EFRA races, it will be VERY tempting to use what they've learned, on a national basis.
So the unsafety and the bad feeling of being cheated will grow stronger and it will cost us even more racers.
GREAT JOB EFRA!!
We (about 10 racers) have already decided not to run any EFRA races next year until it's clear how they want to control the saucing.
They've just opened Pandora's box IMHO.
They will never have the equipment to control the substances that they plan to legalize.
Also, for the guys who went to EFRA races, it will be VERY tempting to use what they've learned, on a national basis.
So the unsafety and the bad feeling of being cheated will grow stronger and it will cost us even more racers.
GREAT JOB EFRA!!
I have raced full size cars and I've seen and heard of some nasty near deaths from some of the tricks people were using in spec classes to "stretch" the rules.
While I don't worry too much about my kidneys and liver at my age I hope my children can rely on theirs for at least the next 70 years. And If they stick with RC throughout their lives as I hope they do then long term exposure does come into play.
But I know that banning things and driving them "underground" can actually make it MORE dangerous as people start using more exotic and many times more dangerous additives to escape detection.
I think that having a very open and honest discussion is very important now that the Pandora's box is open.
12-08-2011, 07:35 AM
#119
Sad and frustrating part of this is that we told Frankie about all of this in Miami. Spraying the track is the easiest and most fair solution for all. Then you can run whatever brand tires you wish. No need for 'factory treated' tires or tire sauce. The alcohol/syrup solution is even relatively inexpensive. The Toledo club has been using it for years and traction is never an issue at their track.
12-08-2011, 09:02 AM
#120
The main problem is that drivers (and I think within the toplevel) wants to secure their sponsorship and do not drive by the rules to stay in front. As it seems the EFRA can not detect simple nature based oils to treat the tires with these drivers were taking advantage of it. We have sended over to Franky Noens 3 tires to have them tested in his lab. 2 tires were tricky, one of them feeled like oil and the other had neele marks and the 3rd was actually treated and did come directly from a race in Italy. All 3 were tested OK, nothing weird was detected.....
We 1/8 scale drivers actually do not need this tire treatment to drive, if there is less grip we still can drive the car without problems and the grip will come during the training sessions. What the hell, even car manufacturers are inventing neat constructions to get some flex for more grip.
But thanx to those cheating drivers we now have the war on who is running the the best tire/sause combo, even with treated tracks where the most track owners in Europe are not waiting for. And believe me, in the future we will see 3mm shock springs and 6mm anti rollbars, guess who is using tire treatment....
We 1/8 scale drivers actually do not need this tire treatment to drive, if there is less grip we still can drive the car without problems and the grip will come during the training sessions. What the hell, even car manufacturers are inventing neat constructions to get some flex for more grip.
But thanx to those cheating drivers we now have the war on who is running the the best tire/sause combo, even with treated tracks where the most track owners in Europe are not waiting for. And believe me, in the future we will see 3mm shock springs and 6mm anti rollbars, guess who is using tire treatment....