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Old 04-03-2011, 06:51 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by Vector03cobra View Post
No spacer behind the cone if i did it would really push things out much farther.

I will check into the kyosha cone see what it is.

Really no mystery to putting it together. I place the cone on the crank Slide it all the way to the back flush with the bearing.place the fly wheel on. and then put on the fly wheel nut.

Then i tighten down the nut, and I now check the gap between flywheel and motor. A fellow form member posted that he was around .6-.65 or something like that, so if its over 1.0 there is no need to go any farther, but if you do as you put it together you would run into the part the bearings and thrust bearing ride on, this part will not come into contact with the tip of the crank.

And if it does not come into contact it will bind the thrust bearing and also because everything is pushed out the bell comes into contact with the disk.

The best info i have got on this so far is knowing the measurement of some other racers gap between the motor and the clutch flywheel.

And also finding out there are some other cones out there that people have used.

With a proper size cone the setup of the clutch is simple
i have never measured the gap between the flywheel and the motor i never had to, and really it dont matter, what matters is the gap u have with no bearing on the inside of the bell and no shims either on the inside or behind the thrust bearing, just with the thrust bearing in see what u get thats how u will know if the flywheel is ok the smallest i have seen was a .8 then some cones give u like a 1.2 gap, then u shim behind the thrust bearing to your liking i shim it to a .6, then i put the bearing in the inside and shim the inside till i get .1 to a .2 gap end play...
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:50 AM   #1892
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Originally Posted by ralphierace13 View Post
i have always used the cones that come with the motor, i have never never ran into that kind of problem trust me there something u are doing wrong its hard to see from the pics unless u take a step by step pic, and i never heard of this prob from anyone i race with. i have seen some cones only give u a .8 gap with no shims behind the thrust bearing but never no gap. the best cone that will bring the flywheel closest to the motor is the kyosho. are u putting the spacer that comes with the motors behind the cone?
I have to agree with ralphie on this one, the mugen clutch is usually easy to setup and I have used several versions of the cone with no problems. You might have to take your clutch and motor to your local club and show an experience racer the problem. It's usually a simple fix.
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:39 PM   #1893
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i have never measured the gap between the flywheel and the motor i never had to, and really it dont matter, what matters is the gap u have with no bearing on the inside of the bell and no shims either on the inside or behind the thrust bearing, just with the thrust bearing in see what u get thats how u will know if the flywheel is ok the smallest i have seen was a .8 then some cones give u like a 1.2 gap, then u shim behind the thrust bearing to your liking i shim it to a .6, then i put the bearing in the inside and shim the inside till i get .1 to a .2 gap end play...
I know HOW to shim it.

That is how I shim it also for .6 and then very little end play.

I do not know how else to explain it to you a few people seem to have figured out what I was talking about.

Here is a different example.

The Crank it self is only so long it only sticks out of the motor so far.

If you start by placing the cone on the crank and then the fly wheel you get a gap measurement between the flywheel and the motor.

Now as the GAP grows its using up the usable distance on the crank this distance you all use to shim the clutch to your settings that you like.

if the GAP between the flywheel and crank is to large for what ever reason...in this case the cone not allowing the flywheel to be back far enough on the crank.

Then you have no room to shim the clutch at 1.20 gap between the fly wheel and motor there is ZERO room to shim anything

Or at Gap 1.17 using all mugen parts there is still ZERO space to shim anything

With the fly wheel out at 1.17 and putting it all together ZERO free play now shims

After shortening the cone down to 5.0 from 5.5 I was able to get the GAP between the flywheel and motor down to almost .75 then there is a bunch of room to shim the clutch however you like.

And after some people posted they have used, and had used different cones on there motors and they also posted the GAp between the back of the fly wheel and motor I was able to compair and figure out what was not allowing me to have any free play.

Thats all i have i cant explain it any better.
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:43 PM   #1894
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I have to agree with ralphie on this one, the mugen clutch is usually easy to setup and I have used several versions of the cone with no problems. You might have to take your clutch and motor to your local club and show an experience racer the problem. It's usually a simple fix.
Simple fix was correct.

Shorter cone, some people listed a few different cones and sizes.

5.5 that came with a Novarossi flash is just a little to long for whatever reason.

Now a 5.0 Cone works flawless.

I did run it past a local they first thing they asked was.......""WHAT CONE ARE YOU USING.""

When I told them they said......""see what other cones people are using and try some of them""
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Old 04-03-2011, 03:49 PM   #1895
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Originally Posted by Vector03cobra View Post
Simple fix was correct.

Shorter cone, some people listed a few different cones and sizes.

5.5 that came with a Novarossi flash is just a little to long for whatever reason.

Now a 5.0 Cone works flawless.

I did run it past a local they first thing they asked was.......""WHAT CONE ARE YOU USING.""

When I told them they said......""see what other cones people are using and try some of them""

dont mean to insult u bout the shiming im sure u know how to shim, was just double checking, i have a flash now and used the cone it comes with so i cant see what the problem is, but ill tell u what dont overlook the fact the factory put the wrong cone in the box it can happen sorry i dont have my clutch apart or i would measure my cone for u, i have much more crazy storys of things that happen to me over the years that came wrong from factorys, but like i said kyosho has one of the closest cones i ever seen...
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Old 04-03-2011, 06:10 PM   #1896
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Default no room for shimming

i know and understand what's vector03's problem.
can be due to a few reasons that there's 'no room' for shimming:

1. 'sometimes' it's the crank shaft that's 'abit' too short
2. the 'cone' is not letting the flywheel sit close enough to the engine front bearing.
3. the thrust bearing retainer/holder is too short.

if you cant find a cone that lets you fit the flywheel closer to the engine; you could try to find a thrust bearing holder that's longer.
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:12 PM   #1897
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i know and understand what's vector03's problem.
can be due to a few reasons that there's 'no room' for shimming:

1. 'sometimes' it's the crank shaft that's 'abit' too short
2. the 'cone' is not letting the flywheel sit close enough to the engine front bearing.
3. the thrust bearing retainer/holder is too short.

if you cant find a cone that lets you fit the flywheel closer to the engine; you could try to find a thrust bearing holder that's longer.
it is possible the crank is a bit short, but he is using the mugen holder there should not b a problem, but if it was the holder what i do is use the kyosho mini shims they go on the screw that goes throu the holder so it spaces the holder from the clutch..
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:53 AM   #1898
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There's a good video Richie did on mugen clutch. It's on YouTube nyrclive. I put link up later.
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:53 AM   #1899
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Originally Posted by Vector03cobra View Post
I know HOW to shim it.

That is how I shim it also for .6 and then very little end play.

I do not know how else to explain it to you a few people seem to have figured out what I was talking about.

Here is a different example.

The Crank it self is only so long it only sticks out of the motor so far.

If you start by placing the cone on the crank and then the fly wheel you get a gap measurement between the flywheel and the motor.

Now as the GAP grows its using up the usable distance on the crank this distance you all use to shim the clutch to your settings that you like.

if the GAP between the flywheel and crank is to large for what ever reason...in this case the cone not allowing the flywheel to be back far enough on the crank.

Then you have no room to shim the clutch at 1.20 gap between the fly wheel and motor there is ZERO room to shim anything

Or at Gap 1.17 using all mugen parts there is still ZERO space to shim anything

With the fly wheel out at 1.17 and putting it all together ZERO free play now shims

After shortening the cone down to 5.0 from 5.5 I was able to get the GAP between the flywheel and motor down to almost .75 then there is a bunch of room to shim the clutch however you like.

And after some people posted they have used, and had used different cones on there motors and they also posted the GAp between the back of the fly wheel and motor I was able to compair and figure out what was not allowing me to have any free play.

Thats all i have i cant explain it any better.
I think this information may help. Try a different engine nut. If your clutch is not a 100% stock mugen set-up the length of the engine nut may be the problem. Different companies make different size engine nuts for cars (1/8 & 1/10). Remeber the longer that nut is the less available space you will have for gap. I believe kyosho makes the shortest engine nut and you can find it on their 1/10 clutch kit. Also, there is a small washer/ spacer you place in front of the crank shaft which will give more available room for adjustment. This washer/space fits inside of the bearings, so everything will move freely. I'll try to locate the proper name and part number for you.

Last edited by walo; 04-04-2011 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:31 PM   #1900
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Originally Posted by ralphierace13 View Post
it is possible the crank is a bit short, but he is using the mugen holder there should not b a problem, but if it was the holder what i do is use the kyosho mini shims they go on the screw that goes throu the holder so it spaces the holder from the clutch..
I agree with Ralphierace13 shimming is a good option and maybe your only one.
IMO the other thing you need to check is the length of the crank. You will need to remove your clutch, take the motor apart remove the crank and measure the crank from end to end, then post that on here and other people with Flash motors can compare it to the length of theres. If the crank is the same length as everyone else then as posted before the bearings may not be seated correctly taking out your room for shimming. Remove them and put them back in. If it turns out the crank is short then the only answer is the one above to make the crank longer by shimming the thrust retainer.
Then if you are still having trouble take the motor back to the distributor and ask them to have a look at it for you . Or did you buy it from the internet and have no backup support. If so like said before take it to your local track and ask the guy with the fastest car to have a look at it for you.

All the best Andrew
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:43 PM   #1901
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Default shorter thrust retainer

fyi, the mugen thrust retainer is indeed short.
i've got 5 different retainers; mugen and serpent both having the shortest among the 5.

the longest one i have is 1.2mm longer than the mugen's. i'm not sure what's the brand of this longest one but it's similar in shape to the serpent's (flat top)...

with a longer retainer, vector's problem wont be a problem anymore.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:47 PM   #1902
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Originally Posted by NitroWD View Post
1. 'sometimes' it's the crank shaft that's 'abit' too short
2. the 'cone' is not letting the flywheel sit close enough to the engine front bearing.
3. the thrust bearing retainer/holder is too short.
Yep, I have seen all three. Had an OS with a short crank. Couldn't use a brand new shoe on it so I saved old but still good ones just for that motor. I have seen cones that can stick the flywheel out a full 1mm or more and I once had a guy bring me his motor/clutch with the same problem. I tried and tried to figure it out. Finally the guy pitting next to me (might have been Pooh) told me to measure the holder. It was about .4mm shorter than most of mine (I had three or four in my parts box), and one of mine turned out to be .2mm shorter than the rest.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:53 PM   #1903
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I agree with Ralphierace13 shimming is a good option and maybe your only one.
IMO the other thing you need to check is the length of the crank. You will need to remove your clutch, take the motor apart remove the crank and measure the crank from end to end, then post that on here and other people with Flash motors can compare it to the length of theres. If the crank is the same length as everyone else then as posted before the bearings may not be seated correctly taking out your room for shimming. Remove them and put them back in. If it turns out the crank is short then the only answer is the one above to make the crank longer by shimming the thrust retainer.
Then if you are still having trouble take the motor back to the distributor and ask them to have a look at it for you . Or did you buy it from the internet and have no backup support. If so like said before take it to your local track and ask the guy with the fastest car to have a look at it for you.

All the best Andrew
Your last line is brilliant...."find the fastest guy at the track and ask him."

Things i have learned so far on here.

1. there are different cones that can work better or fit better.
2. some think all the mugen parts and any cone just work.
3. post a picture of anything but stock parts and that must be the problem.
5. explain something technically and lose people even more.

and the last one...."find the fastest guy at the track and ask him."

Its really not a big deal, I have learned what I needed and thats great because thats what this forum is for.

And with Brian Berry not racing this year that only leaves me as the fastest mugen guy currently. errr I mean guy with a mugen car.

I will show Brian it, along with Paul C. and Josh C. I am sure they will point me to a Cone first also.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:59 PM   #1904
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On a different note.

My Tugnsten Battery tray/weight will be done tomorrow night.

I will take a picture of it to show you all.

The normal brass weight is around 40. In FT Myers my car was 150g light

My car is now 170g light most of it is drive line. and whats not is just good planing. I will be replaceing the 170g mostly with a Tugensten battery plate.

Should be pretty neat, the lightness of my car is not from a lipo battery it would be even lighter 220g or more with a lipo.

Anyways I thought I would share some of you might think its pretty trick.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:00 PM   #1905
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Default mugen

I like that side belt pulley on your car!!
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