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Old 03-26-2012, 05:28 PM   #1366
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Maybe it's the passing of time..but I remember when I started in superstock I typically ran in the "G" or "H" main. I remember an equal amount of mains in open. Is it just me or did a lot more ppl used to be involved? Racing in superstock was pretty good, seemed like good competition and the cars would take a licking and keep on ticking. I moved to open and eventually got to the point where I managed to beat Jack Mueller and Bruce Oakley on a good day (and I won't swear to it but I think I edged Rick Davis one time) but the superstock races were fantastic, and the bodies! My fav was the Indy oval, just ridiculous lap times..also seemed like ppl were a tad more friendly back in the day too. Now they have overpriced crap which is fine if you're a team driver but a tad hard on entry level, especially with breakage. I'm running an Edam 4wd this year, which is as near as I can tell just like a Mugen/Serpent but a fraction of the cost...tho if there is a turnout in pan...frankly...I'd rather run pan. I think it hit the point where the money and time involved for a few extra seconds has gotten out of control and I don't know how new guys get into it with the initial layout required. What, 600 for a rolling pan, 300+ for novarossi, 200+ on radio, and we're not even talking spares, bump box, fuel, travel, etc? And in this economy? The economy sucked in the 70's but pan was strong I think because it was affordable and you didn't spend all your time wrenching in between heats (or some of these guys that have team mechanics.) Or maybe I'm just getting older...hmm.
please talk too garen, way cheaper than you think
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:40 PM   #1367
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I can't do anything about the cost of starter boxes, radio gear (although you don't need $100+ servos for these cars), fuel, or travel, but I can assure you spares are not that expensive and there's not a whole lot to break. You don't need a $300+ novarossi, or any $300+ motor for that matter. I currently offer a motor with header and pipe for under $200. Rolling chassis is not $600. I am trying to get a package put together to include the rolling chassis, engine, header, pipe, set of tires, receiver battery, and GT body for about $650. I keep repeating myself, but it is true, operating cost on one of these is a fraction of the operating cost of any 1/8th 4wd. You are correct, wrenching between heats is also minimal and that is true with the P8C line of cars.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:37 AM   #1368
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Default Not to worry...

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I can't do anything about the cost of starter boxes, radio gear (although you don't need $100+ servos for these cars), fuel, or travel, but I can assure you spares are not that expensive and there's not a whole lot to break. You don't need a $300+ novarossi, or any $300+ motor for that matter. I currently offer a motor with header and pipe for under $200. Rolling chassis is not $600. I am trying to get a package put together to include the rolling chassis, engine, header, pipe, set of tires, receiver battery, and GT body for about $650. I keep repeating myself, but it is true, operating cost on one of these is a fraction of the operating cost of any 1/8th 4wd. You are correct, wrenching between heats is also minimal and that is true with the P8C line of cars.
Shoot me an email if you are interested, go to the contact page of motonicausa.com for my email.
Appreciate your offer but already have it under control. First, on breakage, I was referring to Mugen, I don't know how many times I saw the Mugens go out, hit anything, and then have to recover the pieces. I know the trick to racing is not to hit anything, but we all have accidents.

Second, while I appreciate your offer, I went with the Razor2 4wd from Edam and have about 400 in it between rolling chassis, engine, pipe, tires, body, bump box, etc. I also picked up on a spektrum digital radio setup for about 60 bucks. Point is, I spent some time this winter looking and searching for the best deal I could get, but I know a lot of possible new drivers wouldn't even know what to look for in the first place. Then, of course, they mimic what a lot of drivers currently have, which is the Mugen/Nova setup, and which is expensive as hell. I will be driving pan this year to have fun. I will be driving 4wd this year to try to prove that a person can be competitive in 4wd on a reasonable budget. I know Capricorn is a hot product because Art drives it, and I know Serpent is respectable because Rick drives it, but these are top of the line cars and other than Edam there is no decent entry level car in the 4wd class. I'm also talking with a few people to see if either a second gen Delta or Thorp could be produced for pan class, I'm looking at a target price out of door of about 200 for the rolling chassis and it'd be mostly aluminum (chassis, servo tray, bulkheads, blocks, etc.) If I go the Thorp setup, I'll be looking at a 2wd with one belt and no gears, variable speed pinion, and if I go Delta setup it'll be the same old gear to gear which seems pretty fast down the backstraight still. And just for general notice, at the GLC this year I'll be running a Thorp that was never assembled till this year, probably punched out in '76 or thereabouts, a little RC history on the move. But many thanx for your input, kudos to you for your efforts to help.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:15 AM   #1369
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I think the best entry level 4wd chassis is a Mugen mrx4x. i have one, and there are plenty around on ebay. i recently saw a new one on ebay and it was cheap. Rick V, a world class driver for Mugen, still used his mrx4x for some races last year. A great and affordable platform.

Since this thread is about 2wd pan cars, i will also say Garen Is The Man. He and Motonica can help make this class work. I am personally very surprised that this class has not taken the place of buggy based GT. Not to offend anyone, but the buggy based GT class is awkward--big slow lumpy blobs swaying around the track. They turn like the 1964 Impala I had in high school. A very un-athletic thing to witness. From my perspective the 2wd Pan car is very close to the elite 4wd class, and seems to be the obvious starting point for first time racers, and a cool category for nostalgic pan car gurus. Somehow I don't get the reasoning, but GT is popular and people have fun with the class. Oh well.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:24 AM   #1370
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This is sort of interesting, where is it made? There was a Chinese rip off car that showed up at our GLC race a few years ago. It was cheap and that was what you got. My guess would be anyone starting from this point is into RC airplanes now, maybe trains. In 1 to 1 scale,F1 and cheap never work. I wish you the best of luck with the Edam car, but it's 4wd and well need a good motor and set up. Last year I try to run my X-Ray 4wd and my Motonica P8C pan car, it was a lot of work and I'd end up parking the 4wd and focus on enjoying the pan car. This year will be about enjoying the hobby and the people in it! So I'm running 100% P8C.
I had several Thorp cars, they were neat. I always thought K&B and OPS were just to much power for the belt that John was using.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:44 AM   #1371
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The very difference in driving a 4wd and a 2wd pan makes running both on the same day hard. At my age, I'm not out here to battle that hard, I just went to have fun!
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:47 PM   #1372
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I think the best entry level 4wd chassis is a Mugen mrx4x. i have one, and there are plenty around on ebay. i recently saw a new one on ebay and it was cheap. Rick V, a world class driver for Mugen, still used his mrx4x for some races last year. A great and affordable platform.

Since this thread is about 2wd pan cars, i will also say Garen Is The Man. He and Motonica can help make this class work. I am personally very surprised that this class has not taken the place of buggy based GT. Not to offend anyone, but the buggy based GT class is awkward--big slow lumpy blobs swaying around the track. They turn like the 1964 Impala I had in high school. A very un-athletic thing to witness. From my perspective the 2wd Pan car is very close to the elite 4wd class, and seems to be the obvious starting point for first time racers, and a cool category for nostalgic pan car gurus. Somehow I don't get the reasoning, but GT is popular and people have fun with the class. Oh well.
i agree garen is the go too guy for supplies, and lon sr. gets credit with giving us test drives with the "house cars". i also think the gt's are cumbersome like marshalling smart cars!. we are having a blast with old and new pans and like sr i will only run this class regular this year.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:29 PM   #1373
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I know that you guys in the GLS are the main group organizing the 2wd glass. Does someone here have a specific calendar of events and locations where the group of people on this thread are going to meet up this year? Are there any other groups around the country represented besides the GLC group? Other pockets of 2wd'ers?
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:28 PM   #1374
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I know that you guys in the GLS are the main group organizing the 2wd glass. Does someone here have a specific calendar of events and locations where the group of people on this thread are going to meet up this year? Are there any other groups around the country represented besides the GLC group? Other pockets of 2wd'ers?
I have been trying to get this class going here in the Northeast , many interested , but so far I am the only person that I know of with a modern day pan car.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:27 PM   #1375
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I know that you guys in the GLS are the main group organizing the 2wd glass. Does someone here have a specific calendar of events and locations where the group of people on this thread are going to meet up this year? Are there any other groups around the country represented besides the GLC group? Other pockets of 2wd'ers?
The seeds were planted by Lon Burling in Toledo. He purchased three (3) of the P8C's a few years back. The story as I heard it is that they were going to be for his grandsons' to learn to race with. He tried them a bit but went back to 4wd.

Last spring some of us, 5italkart (joe P.), Taylorm (matt), and Das 1/8th mopar (lon) got to talking about running old vintage cars, RC 300 type, but over time it became clear that there were problems with the cost and availability of parts (especially tires) etc. Lon brought out his P8C's, Let everybody and his brother race them!! I got one and they were pretty fun! And tires and parts were at least available!!

Late last year a number of racers bought P8c's, maybe 8 to 10 in Toledo, one in CInci and I have one in SC (but will race it in Toledo and the MWS). SO although the races have not started yet (April 22 for Toledo!!!) it looks like the class will be well suported... Only time will tell....

Both Toledo and the MWS plan on supporting the Classic (New) Pan car class. I have not seen any official rules but I expect the motors to be limited to 3 port's, non-turbo and less than $250... We have been talking about running different bodies to differentiate the Pans from 4wd but it looks like it will be faily open as far as I can tell.

There are some of us that will/may try to run Vintage Pan Cars.
Joe P, Matt, me (Rick Davis has been rumored ;-)) either with the Classics, as a seperate heat in Toledo-if we can get enough cars, or as a Demo Race...

Toledo Thread & Schedule: The One Eighth Racers of Toledo 2012 thread.

MWS: 2012 Midwest Series 43rd Season (Nitro On-Road 5 Races 4 States)

That's what I think the State of Pan cars is in Toledo/MWS as of now. As for the rest of the US, I know Garen runs them in Calli but other than that???

Come over and give it a try!

Ned
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:53 PM   #1376
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I'm also talking with a few people to see if either a second gen Delta or Thorp could be produced for pan class, I'm looking at a target price out of door of about 200 for the rolling chassis and it'd be mostly aluminum (chassis, servo tray, bulkheads, blocks, etc.) If I go the Thorp setup, I'll be looking at a 2wd with one belt and no gears, variable speed pinion, and if I go Delta setup it'll be the same old gear to gear which seems pretty fast down the backstraight still.
I would like to see a "Vintage" Pan car produced also, but I think an Associated/MRP type car, using modern 4wd wheels would be superior and cheaper, easier to build and maintain. The Thorpe was interesting but is overly complex and really not very successful. The Delta, too is a bit complex and needs special gears because of the fixed engine to rear axle distance.

A .125" thick G10 chassis is far superior to aluminum and just as easy to machine. Same for the radio plate (or use kydex). A simple Associated 300 type motor plate is simple and reliable and lends itself to a fairly simple, reliable disk brake. The front end depends on machines available to make it. Easiest is probably an old Delat bar.

Right now I can easily make everything except the rear hubs and I have not been able to locate cheap spurs that could be modified by drilling to accept the diff balls. The clutch needs some thought as about an 11 tooth pinion would be desireable and is not used in existing RC. I can find pinion stock, but then I have to make the bell, and maybe the flywheel too.

Get me some free CNC time and it's a piece of cake. I figure a first run of 25 complete kits and 25 sets of spares. selling for less that $350.

Good Luck with your ideas,
Ned
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:14 AM   #1377
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This is sort of interesting, where is it made? There was a Chinese rip off car that showed up at our GLC race a few years ago. It was cheap and that was what you got. My guess would be anyone starting from this point is into RC airplanes now, maybe trains. In 1 to 1 scale,F1 and cheap never work. I wish you the best of luck with the Edam car, but it's 4wd and well need a good motor and set up. Last year I try to run my X-Ray 4wd and my Motonica P8C pan car, it was a lot of work and I'd end up parking the 4wd and focus on enjoying the pan car. This year will be about enjoying the hobby and the people in it! So I'm running 100% P8C.
I had several Thorp cars, they were neat. I always thought K&B and OPS were just to much power for the belt that John was using.
Taiwan...eh, I know, I know, before you say it....but after looking at the damned thing, I honestly can't hardly tell the diff between it and mugen/serpent. And I keep figuring, if it's practically the same car, why not save a few bucks? Frankly, if I had the money, I'd probably have a Capricorn, I hear nothing but good about that car and having seen it, it looks bulletproof...which is nice because everyone, without exception, usually has an oopsie and then parts go flying. I know mugen is top of the line stuff, but one of the races I went to last year, some guy was driving one, don't recall his name...and everytime he hit the track, he hit something....and everytime he hit something, parts flew. He was literally rebuilding the car between every single heat, he had piles of spares heaped about him, and I was left with the impression of if it's gonna be like that, may as well try to get the cost down. I know nothing will be as durable as a pan car, simple question of less moving parts and more aluminum, but it's got to be hard to have fun when there is great cost and little driving. Frankly, with my health issues, I don't know how long I'll get to be back in the hobby, but I intend to do what I can for as long as I can...family and the Navy sort of took up my time since '86 and now I figure I have one more chance to play in the sun so I'm going to take it, but with a daughter starting college, I've got to keep the cost down. You know, somewhere along the line, getting older and having responsibilities turned out to be a real drag...lol.
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:23 AM   #1378
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Default Well....

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I would like to see a "Vintage" Pan car produced also, but I think an Associated/MRP type car, using modern 4wd wheels would be superior and cheaper, easier to build and maintain. The Thorpe was interesting but is overly complex and really not very successful. The Delta, too is a bit complex and needs special gears because of the fixed engine to rear axle distance.

A .125" thick G10 chassis is far superior to aluminum and just as easy to machine. Same for the radio plate (or use kydex). A simple Associated 300 type motor plate is simple and reliable and lends itself to a fairly simple, reliable disk brake. The front end depends on machines available to make it. Easiest is probably an old Delat bar.

Right now I can easily make everything except the rear hubs and I have not been able to locate cheap spurs that could be modified by drilling to accept the diff balls. The clutch needs some thought as about an 11 tooth pinion would be desireable and is not used in existing RC. I can find pinion stock, but then I have to make the bell, and maybe the flywheel too.

Get me some free CNC time and it's a piece of cake. I figure a first run of 25 complete kits and 25 sets of spares. selling for less that $350.

Good Luck with your ideas,
Ned
The biggest things moving me in the direction I'm going so far is, one, since I have a SuperJ I have a "pattern" to go by and two, I can get aluminum around here pretty cheap and my partner is pretty good with machining. I can weld and design but nerve damage makes anything that takes a delicate touch a tad difficult. I'm keen on the thorp drive because there are no gears...I like aluminum pans because they don't break (and after baking them, they don't bend much either) and I've contemplated having aluminum gears punched out locally in quantity. I give kudos to motonica for making the attempt at least to make pan cars...wish a few other manufacturers would do so as well, I think the hobby desperately needs a good entry level/cheap alternative to 4wd and just because it's pan doesn't mean it's slow! There's a local company with CNC equipment, I've been busy in the shop, but I've been wanting to go dicker with them about using some of their down time (which they have plenty due to the economy) to fab up some things. I'll get with you here in the future, let's put our heads together and see what we can come up with....
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:36 AM   #1379
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I think the best entry level 4wd chassis is a Mugen mrx4x. i have one, and there are plenty around on ebay. i recently saw a new one on ebay and it was cheap. Rick V, a world class driver for Mugen, still used his mrx4x for some races last year. A great and affordable platform.

Since this thread is about 2wd pan cars, i will also say Garen Is The Man. He and Motonica can help make this class work. I am personally very surprised that this class has not taken the place of buggy based GT. Not to offend anyone, but the buggy based GT class is awkward--big slow lumpy blobs swaying around the track. They turn like the 1964 Impala I had in high school. A very un-athletic thing to witness. From my perspective the 2wd Pan car is very close to the elite 4wd class, and seems to be the obvious starting point for first time racers, and a cool category for nostalgic pan car gurus. Somehow I don't get the reasoning, but GT is popular and people have fun with the class. Oh well.
Spent the winter building a GT with my partner in the shop..I hear what you're saying about ungainly, but this thing is anything but, it's very durable and turns on a dime. I like the idea of GT for a number of reasons, one being that there's a lot of guys that have buggy/offroad that would like to run and can't afford another entire platform, that means new/more drivers, more support for the local clubs and more support for the hobby in general. Next, they are big enough you don't need a magnifying glass and tweezers to work on. What we're working on is basically a "two-fer," a car that you can run on or offroad with initial purchase from the various companies totalling about 650 and about an hour to convert from one to the other. My friend is totally new to the hobby so he's learning to drive but his mechanic/design skills are pretty good and now he's got a platform that should "take a licking and keep on ticking" so he'll get time on the track rather than in the pits repairing. It'll be an interesting year, we have high hopes the thing will prove itself and maybe be an alternative for some people who want to get in the onroad hobby but didn't have a way to do it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:55 AM   #1380
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Victor from FG Supply is putting together the WRC car and we are going to demo them at upcoming races here in LA.
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