52LikesEuropean 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
02-23-2012, 12:51 PM
#1246
http://www.mantuamodelshop.com/intre...77d7db61d2e5fe . Is this the new Intrepid???
It's definately against the "spirit" of the Pan Car Rules (as we understand them ;-)) Look at the rear suspension, lower A-Arms are now plastic, not aluminum and the upper is set up to piviot, not solid..............
Straight Axles Forever!!! ;-)
02-23-2012, 12:58 PM
#1247
Nice looking cars. I think the DXF I have was an attempt to accomplish the same thing. I have always liked the fiberglass chassis since we went from aluminum to fiberglass back in the day!!!
What is the difference between the three upper rear a-arm plates shown in the instructions? Different flex?
What is the difference between the three upper rear a-arm plates shown in the instructions? Different flex?
About A-arm: let's make things clear: in none of the modern cars you'll find a rear end that could flex. It doesn't matter if braces are made from aluminium or plastic, they are designed to be rigid anyway. You don't make DIY modification in that sense either, cause when you go to a race, they check it. So no cheating. You need different A-arms when you change wheelbase. Holes are more forward/rearward oriented. Intrepid is just made like that.
I love pan-cars. It's just the way they drive... how the chassis vibrates coming out of corners.... the speed.... And how you work on it, just engine, aerodynamics and tyres, like the 12th guys do. Race to the essential. Love it
02-23-2012, 01:03 PM
#1248
That looks like it!!! ONLY $785 + shipping.... ROFLOL!!
It's definately against the "spirit" of the Pan Car Rules (as we understand them ;-)) Look at the rear suspension, lower A-Arms are now plastic, not aluminum and the upper is set up to piviot, not solid..............
Straight Axles Forever!!! ;-)
It's definately against the "spirit" of the Pan Car Rules (as we understand them ;-)) Look at the rear suspension, lower A-Arms are now plastic, not aluminum and the upper is set up to piviot, not solid..............
Straight Axles Forever!!! ;-)
02-23-2012, 01:15 PM
#1249
Even 450Euro = $600 + about $75 Shipping! Still way high for a "Pan Car" IMHO
We can get almost any 4WD for that!!!!
02-23-2012, 01:34 PM
#1251
You know that we could debate forever about prices!! My opinion is that they are too expensive anyway. Look what you get: a flat 3mm or so chassis, a couple of bulkheads, some other litlle stuff, and a diff. Whatever you're going to pay it'll be always too much 
Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.
If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.
About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.
If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.
About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
02-23-2012, 01:44 PM
#1252
About fiberglass: there are pros & cons. It's just impossible to break it in a crash, is very cheap... but sometimes there could be dissimilarities from a chassis to another, you're never 100% sure you get the perfect one. It's a composite material, you can't see inside how the layers are oriented.... nevertheless I've never had issues. I find it the optimal solution.
About A-arm: let's make things clear: in none of the modern cars you'll find a rear end that could flex. It doesn't matter if braces are made from aluminium or plastic, they are designed to be rigid anyway. You don't make DIY modification in that sense either, cause when you go to a race, they check it. So no cheating. You need different A-arms when you change wheelbase. Holes are more forward/rearward oriented. Intrepid is just made like that.
I love pan-cars. It's just the way they drive... how the chassis vibrates coming out of corners.... the speed.... And how you work on it, just engine, aerodynamics and tyres, like the 12th guys do. Race to the essential. Love it
About A-arm: let's make things clear: in none of the modern cars you'll find a rear end that could flex. It doesn't matter if braces are made from aluminium or plastic, they are designed to be rigid anyway. You don't make DIY modification in that sense either, cause when you go to a race, they check it. So no cheating. You need different A-arms when you change wheelbase. Holes are more forward/rearward oriented. Intrepid is just made like that.
I love pan-cars. It's just the way they drive... how the chassis vibrates coming out of corners.... the speed.... And how you work on it, just engine, aerodynamics and tyres, like the 12th guys do. Race to the essential. Love it
When I say "cheating" I am refering to the design intent streching the envelope, not the owner/mechanic tweeking something. (Probably a poor choice of wording.) And again, having been involved with 1/8 scale RC Cars since 1970 (Dynamic Pan Car), my reference for a "Pan Class" goes back to VERY SIMPLE and VERY CHEAP!
When I got involved with trying to help get a "Pan Class" going in our group, the talk started with reserecting old pan cars (Associated 300, Delta, MRP, etc.) Only when it was determined that it would be too expensive and difficult for most racers to field them, did I decide the European "Classic" 2wd cars were the better way to go.
I have only seen the P8C and the DXF in person and they seem less likely to flex than some of the newer cars. From a materials and design viewpoint I believe that the new Intrepid rear suspension will absorb road "shocks" to the car better than one with aluminum arms and "fixed" length upper arms.
They must have decided that changing the WB was not necessary on the new car, I don't see any provision for moving it at the rear?
I really love 1/8 scale on-road and would be happy to run 4wd if it weren't so darn fast!!! I was hoping the pan class would be slower for my diminsihing skills but the "real racers" obviously need to go as fast as possible and I certainly understand this mindset.
02-23-2012, 02:05 PM
#1253
You know that we could debate forever about prices!! My opinion is that they are too expensive anyway. Look what you get: a flat 3mm or so chassis, a couple of bulkheads, some other litlle stuff, and a diff. Whatever you're going to pay it'll be always too much
Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.
If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.
About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.
If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.
About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
As I indicated in my reply to another post, I hoped that the pan class would enable me to race at a slower, cheaper pace (and I believe that is the thought of many here). I still believe there is a market for a $200 rolling chassis based on say an Associated 300BD (probably made in China
) for newbies and old guys who probably should quit 
!As far as your comment "If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing."
At least here in the States, there is and has always been different types of folks involved in RC Racing: "real racers", "hobbiests", "1:1 scale racing fans", and "those that just wanna have fun"
I guess the situation now is that only the "hard core-real racers" are left, at least mostly.One thing for sure is that it's a GREAT hobby/sport! I know for sure!
02-23-2012, 02:10 PM
#1254
When I say "cheating" I am refering to the design intent streching the envelope, not the owner/mechanic tweeking something. (Probably a poor choice of wording.) And again, having been involved with 1/8 scale RC Cars since 1970 (Dynamic Pan Car), my reference for a "Pan Class" goes back to VERY SIMPLE and VERY CHEAP!
When I got involved with trying to help get a "Pan Class" going in our group, the talk started with reserecting old pan cars (Associated 300, Delta, MRP, etc.) Only when it was determined that it would be too expensive and difficult for most racers to field them, did I decide the European "Classic" 2wd cars were the better way to go.
I have only seen the P8C and the DXF in person and they seem less likely to flex than some of the newer cars. From a materials and design viewpoint I believe that the new Intrepid rear suspension will absorb road "shocks" to the car better than one with aluminum arms and "fixed" length upper arms.
They must have decided that changing the WB was not necessary on the new car, I don't see any provision for moving it at the rear?
I really love 1/8 scale on-road and would be happy to run 4wd if it weren't so darn fast!!! I was hoping the pan class would be slower for my diminsihing skills but the "real racers" obviously need to go as fast as possible and I certainly understand this mindset.
When I got involved with trying to help get a "Pan Class" going in our group, the talk started with reserecting old pan cars (Associated 300, Delta, MRP, etc.) Only when it was determined that it would be too expensive and difficult for most racers to field them, did I decide the European "Classic" 2wd cars were the better way to go.
I have only seen the P8C and the DXF in person and they seem less likely to flex than some of the newer cars. From a materials and design viewpoint I believe that the new Intrepid rear suspension will absorb road "shocks" to the car better than one with aluminum arms and "fixed" length upper arms.
They must have decided that changing the WB was not necessary on the new car, I don't see any provision for moving it at the rear?
I really love 1/8 scale on-road and would be happy to run 4wd if it weren't so darn fast!!! I was hoping the pan class would be slower for my diminsihing skills but the "real racers" obviously need to go as fast as possible and I certainly understand this mindset.
We, in Italy, are experiencing a real resurrection of vintage pan-cars. Thanks also to Mantua, who added a vintage class in its much followed "single-brand" race. If you browse in that Rcbazar link I posted above you'll find some articles of what I'm talking about.
I agree with you when saying of shocking absorption, but with Hudy set-up mounted on and pushing onto the rear you still won't be able to read any change in camber. So yes. Smart development, still playing inside rules though!
WB is just considered optimal after many tests. No change. The new rear end is completely different from the old one. Engine closer to the diff, shorter belt, different 3rd upper pivot.....
02-23-2012, 02:26 PM
#1255
You are certainly correct in your observations about price and what you get for your money!
As I indicated in my reply to another post, I hoped that the pan class would enable me to race at a slower, cheaper pace (and I believe that is the thought of many here). I still believe there is a market for a $200 rolling chassis based on say an Associated 300BD (probably made in China) for newbies and old guys who probably should quit !
As far as your comment "If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing."
At least here in the States, there is and has always been different types of folks involved in RC Racing: "real racers", "hobbiests", "1:1 scale racing fans", and "those that just wanna have fun" I guess the situation now is that only the "hard core-real racers" are left, at least mostly.
One thing for sure is that it's a GREAT hobby/sport! I know for sure!
As I indicated in my reply to another post, I hoped that the pan class would enable me to race at a slower, cheaper pace (and I believe that is the thought of many here). I still believe there is a market for a $200 rolling chassis based on say an Associated 300BD (probably made in China
) for newbies and old guys who probably should quit !As far as your comment "If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing."
At least here in the States, there is and has always been different types of folks involved in RC Racing: "real racers", "hobbiests", "1:1 scale racing fans", and "those that just wanna have fun"
I guess the situation now is that only the "hard core-real racers" are left, at least mostly.One thing for sure is that it's a GREAT hobby/sport! I know for sure!
The bigger step forward in performance, and sadly costs, is REAR TOE IN. Beacuse the car gains so much traction that you are really tempted to go harder on engines. And you actually can. I mean when you see pan car with sauced tires easily cope with 9 ports top level motors, you just put your hands up.
But we must be honest and say also that with toe in everybody is able to enjoy RWD without spinning around.
I do it for fun too,
but every damn category is going up in complexity and competitiveness.
02-23-2012, 02:32 PM
#1256
The Motonica car is very good. I have not driven any other of the current 2wd cars, but I can say the Motonica is easy to drive, easy on parts, easy on the wallet.
The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.
The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.
'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.
The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.
'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
02-23-2012, 02:44 PM
#1257
The Motonica car is very good. I have not driven any other of the current 2wd cars, but I can say the Motonica is easy to drive, easy on parts, easy on the wallet.
The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.
The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.
'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.
The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.
'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
That means no more slope, and very effective side to side swaying. You'll notice the difference in steering. Hands down.Sadly I don't know the pan car world there in the US, so I cannot say what is better if go for the basic or go for the top level.
My sensation, as you say, is that the balance is more prone to fun rather than "hard core" racing. Here is the opposite. A duality like you US people are stronger in Off road than us... something like that....
02-23-2012, 02:56 PM
#1258
Pan cars are, and will always be, cheaper to race than 4WD. Seriously, nobody is able to spend more than 4WD
The bigger step forward in performance, and sadly costs, is REAR TOE IN. Beacuse the car gains so much traction that you are really tempted to go harder on engines. And you actually can. I mean when you see pan car with sauced tires easily cope with 9 ports top level motors, you just put your hands up.
But we must be honest and say also that with toe in everybody is able to enjoy RWD without spinning around.
I do it for fun too, but every damn category is going up in complexity and competitiveness.
The bigger step forward in performance, and sadly costs, is REAR TOE IN. Beacuse the car gains so much traction that you are really tempted to go harder on engines. And you actually can. I mean when you see pan car with sauced tires easily cope with 9 ports top level motors, you just put your hands up.
But we must be honest and say also that with toe in everybody is able to enjoy RWD without spinning around.
I do it for fun too,
but every damn category is going up in complexity and competitiveness.Interesting you mention the rear toe. I am working on a design that is basically an Associated 300 with a u-joint in the rear axle so you can adjust rear toe!
Thanks for the info on the relative performance of the cars where you race. Many of the guys here think the pan chassis cannot handle much power so the motors won't matter. Your experience suggests that a 3 port would not stand a chance against a real race motor!!!
Great "talking" with you!
02-24-2012, 02:59 AM
#1259
You won't go wrong with Motonica. But there is plenty of choice, at least here.
Top level chassis are also WRC ( http://www.wrc-racing.com/ita/rccar_dett.php ), BP racing ( http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1157 ), and the Z1 we were discussing above, and some other craft made italian cars. Then, there are french cars.
WRC in particular was kind of a earthquake when came out few years ago! It was something like half a second faster of everything else...! They really raised the bar, with a car having much more traction than everybody had.
Talking about rear toe in, when it was finally liberalized we saw the birth of systems to adopt 4WD rear hub carriers on "old" chassis born with no toe.
http://www.tg1hobby.com/Web%20Rigida...posteriore.htm
With rear toe in everybody is able to handle at least a Nova Race or max Power XL7 or Piccos or whatever fast. To deal with 9 ports Novas is a bit more tricky since they have a rather aggressive power delivery.
Top level chassis are also WRC ( http://www.wrc-racing.com/ita/rccar_dett.php ), BP racing ( http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1157 ), and the Z1 we were discussing above, and some other craft made italian cars. Then, there are french cars.
WRC in particular was kind of a earthquake when came out few years ago! It was something like half a second faster of everything else...! They really raised the bar, with a car having much more traction than everybody had.
Talking about rear toe in, when it was finally liberalized we saw the birth of systems to adopt 4WD rear hub carriers on "old" chassis born with no toe.
http://www.tg1hobby.com/Web%20Rigida...posteriore.htm
With rear toe in everybody is able to handle at least a Nova Race or max Power XL7 or Piccos or whatever fast. To deal with 9 ports Novas is a bit more tricky since they have a rather aggressive power delivery.
02-24-2012, 06:17 AM
#1260
,,,........http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1157 that also looks like a sweet ride....