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Old 02-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #1246
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That looks like it!!! ONLY $785 + shipping.... ROFLOL!!

It's definately against the "spirit" of the Pan Car Rules (as we understand them ;-)) Look at the rear suspension, lower A-Arms are now plastic, not aluminum and the upper is set up to piviot, not solid..............



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European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-img_0097.jpg  
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:58 PM   #1247
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Nice looking cars. I think the DXF I have was an attempt to accomplish the same thing. I have always liked the fiberglass chassis since we went from aluminum to fiberglass back in the day!!!

What is the difference between the three upper rear a-arm plates shown in the instructions? Different flex?
About fiberglass: there are pros & cons. It's just impossible to break it in a crash, is very cheap... but sometimes there could be dissimilarities from a chassis to another, you're never 100% sure you get the perfect one. It's a composite material, you can't see inside how the layers are oriented.... nevertheless I've never had issues. I find it the optimal solution.

About A-arm: let's make things clear: in none of the modern cars you'll find a rear end that could flex. It doesn't matter if braces are made from aluminium or plastic, they are designed to be rigid anyway. You don't make DIY modification in that sense either, cause when you go to a race, they check it. So no cheating. You need different A-arms when you change wheelbase. Holes are more forward/rearward oriented. Intrepid is just made like that.

I love pan-cars. It's just the way they drive... how the chassis vibrates coming out of corners.... the speed.... And how you work on it, just engine, aerodynamics and tyres, like the 12th guys do. Race to the essential. Love it
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #1248
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That looks like it!!! ONLY $785 + shipping.... ROFLOL!!

It's definately against the "spirit" of the Pan Car Rules (as we understand them ;-)) Look at the rear suspension, lower A-Arms are now plastic, not aluminum and the upper is set up to piviot, not solid..............



Straight Axles Forever!!! ;-)
Come on, although far from being cheap, you can't look at that price. Everything in this hobby has a standard price and a "street" price. No way I'm going to pay my next pan-car 590€
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #1249
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Come on, although far from being cheap, you can't look at that price. Everything in this hobby has a standard price and a "street" price. No way I'm going to pay my next pan-car 590
Sorry ;-(, my bad... Not being familiar with Italian, I didn't realize that the price listed was MSRP! I thought I was on a Hobby Shop site!!!!

Even 450Euro = $600 + about $75 Shipping! Still way high for a "Pan Car" IMHO

We can get almost any 4WD for that!!!!
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:18 PM   #1250
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If Motonica comes through with a P8C Extreme 2 Club Race package, you can expect it here in the US for about $690 +/-, including motor, pipe, body, battery, tires.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:34 PM   #1251
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You know that we could debate forever about prices!! My opinion is that they are too expensive anyway. Look what you get: a flat 3mm or so chassis, a couple of bulkheads, some other litlle stuff, and a diff. Whatever you're going to pay it'll be always too much

Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.

If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.

About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:44 PM   #1252
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About fiberglass: there are pros & cons. It's just impossible to break it in a crash, is very cheap... but sometimes there could be dissimilarities from a chassis to another, you're never 100% sure you get the perfect one. It's a composite material, you can't see inside how the layers are oriented.... nevertheless I've never had issues. I find it the optimal solution.

About A-arm: let's make things clear: in none of the modern cars you'll find a rear end that could flex. It doesn't matter if braces are made from aluminium or plastic, they are designed to be rigid anyway. You don't make DIY modification in that sense either, cause when you go to a race, they check it. So no cheating. You need different A-arms when you change wheelbase. Holes are more forward/rearward oriented. Intrepid is just made like that.

I love pan-cars. It's just the way they drive... how the chassis vibrates coming out of corners.... the speed.... And how you work on it, just engine, aerodynamics and tyres, like the 12th guys do. Race to the essential. Love it

When I say "cheating" I am refering to the design intent streching the envelope, not the owner/mechanic tweeking something. (Probably a poor choice of wording.) And again, having been involved with 1/8 scale RC Cars since 1970 (Dynamic Pan Car), my reference for a "Pan Class" goes back to VERY SIMPLE and VERY CHEAP!

When I got involved with trying to help get a "Pan Class" going in our group, the talk started with reserecting old pan cars (Associated 300, Delta, MRP, etc.) Only when it was determined that it would be too expensive and difficult for most racers to field them, did I decide the European "Classic" 2wd cars were the better way to go.

I have only seen the P8C and the DXF in person and they seem less likely to flex than some of the newer cars. From a materials and design viewpoint I believe that the new Intrepid rear suspension will absorb road "shocks" to the car better than one with aluminum arms and "fixed" length upper arms.
They must have decided that changing the WB was not necessary on the new car, I don't see any provision for moving it at the rear?

I really love 1/8 scale on-road and would be happy to run 4wd if it weren't so darn fast!!! I was hoping the pan class would be slower for my diminsihing skills but the "real racers" obviously need to go as fast as possible and I certainly understand this mindset.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #1253
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You know that we could debate forever about prices!! My opinion is that they are too expensive anyway. Look what you get: a flat 3mm or so chassis, a couple of bulkheads, some other litlle stuff, and a diff. Whatever you're going to pay it'll be always too much

Reality is that rationality is nowhere near this hobby.

If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing.

About Motonica: that could be a good deal, but you pay what you get. A good car + a good basic engine + basic stuff = basic racing.
You are certainly correct in your observations about price and what you get for your money!

As I indicated in my reply to another post, I hoped that the pan class would enable me to race at a slower, cheaper pace (and I believe that is the thought of many here). I still believe there is a market for a $200 rolling chassis based on say an Associated 300BD (probably made in China ) for newbies and old guys who probably should quit !

As far as your comment "If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing."

At least here in the States, there is and has always been different types of folks involved in RC Racing: "real racers", "hobbiests", "1:1 scale racing fans", and "those that just wanna have fun" I guess the situation now is that only the "hard core-real racers" are left, at least mostly.

One thing for sure is that it's a GREAT hobby/sport! I know for sure!
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:10 PM   #1254
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When I say "cheating" I am refering to the design intent streching the envelope, not the owner/mechanic tweeking something. (Probably a poor choice of wording.) And again, having been involved with 1/8 scale RC Cars since 1970 (Dynamic Pan Car), my reference for a "Pan Class" goes back to VERY SIMPLE and VERY CHEAP!

When I got involved with trying to help get a "Pan Class" going in our group, the talk started with reserecting old pan cars (Associated 300, Delta, MRP, etc.) Only when it was determined that it would be too expensive and difficult for most racers to field them, did I decide the European "Classic" 2wd cars were the better way to go.

I have only seen the P8C and the DXF in person and they seem less likely to flex than some of the newer cars. From a materials and design viewpoint I believe that the new Intrepid rear suspension will absorb road "shocks" to the car better than one with aluminum arms and "fixed" length upper arms.
They must have decided that changing the WB was not necessary on the new car, I don't see any provision for moving it at the rear?

I really love 1/8 scale on-road and would be happy to run 4wd if it weren't so darn fast!!! I was hoping the pan class would be slower for my diminsihing skills but the "real racers" obviously need to go as fast as possible and I certainly understand this mindset.
Very interesting to talk to someone who actually saw evolution from the 70's on.

We, in Italy, are experiencing a real resurrection of vintage pan-cars. Thanks also to Mantua, who added a vintage class in its much followed "single-brand" race. If you browse in that Rcbazar link I posted above you'll find some articles of what I'm talking about.

I agree with you when saying of shocking absorption, but with Hudy set-up mounted on and pushing onto the rear you still won't be able to read any change in camber. So yes. Smart development, still playing inside rules though!
WB is just considered optimal after many tests. No change. The new rear end is completely different from the old one. Engine closer to the diff, shorter belt, different 3rd upper pivot.....
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:26 PM   #1255
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You are certainly correct in your observations about price and what you get for your money!

As I indicated in my reply to another post, I hoped that the pan class would enable me to race at a slower, cheaper pace (and I believe that is the thought of many here). I still believe there is a market for a $200 rolling chassis based on say an Associated 300BD (probably made in China ) for newbies and old guys who probably should quit !

As far as your comment "If you choose to race pan cars you mustn't do it beacuse of little money. That's a bad mentality in racing."

At least here in the States, there is and has always been different types of folks involved in RC Racing: "real racers", "hobbiests", "1:1 scale racing fans", and "those that just wanna have fun" I guess the situation now is that only the "hard core-real racers" are left, at least mostly.

One thing for sure is that it's a GREAT hobby/sport! I know for sure!
Pan cars are, and will always be, cheaper to race than 4WD. Seriously, nobody is able to spend more than 4WD

The bigger step forward in performance, and sadly costs, is REAR TOE IN. Beacuse the car gains so much traction that you are really tempted to go harder on engines. And you actually can. I mean when you see pan car with sauced tires easily cope with 9 ports top level motors, you just put your hands up.

But we must be honest and say also that with toe in everybody is able to enjoy RWD without spinning around.

I do it for fun too, but every damn category is going up in complexity and competitiveness.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:32 PM   #1256
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The Motonica car is very good. I have not driven any other of the current 2wd cars, but I can say the Motonica is easy to drive, easy on parts, easy on the wallet.

The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.

The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.

'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #1257
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The Motonica car is very good. I have not driven any other of the current 2wd cars, but I can say the Motonica is easy to drive, easy on parts, easy on the wallet.

The 'basic' motor provides more than enough power.

The 'basic' stuff like body, tires, and battery, are all needed to run the car.

'Basic' racing- isn't that the whole point of these cars? To have fun?
Yes Garen, you are certainly right, and I tell you more: the new P8C Extreme is a big step forward, did you see the front end finally assembled on a double ball joint?? That means no more slope, and very effective side to side swaying. You'll notice the difference in steering. Hands down.

Sadly I don't know the pan car world there in the US, so I cannot say what is better if go for the basic or go for the top level.

My sensation, as you say, is that the balance is more prone to fun rather than "hard core" racing. Here is the opposite. A duality like you US people are stronger in Off road than us... something like that....
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:56 PM   #1258
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Pan cars are, and will always be, cheaper to race than 4WD. Seriously, nobody is able to spend more than 4WD

The bigger step forward in performance, and sadly costs, is REAR TOE IN. Beacuse the car gains so much traction that you are really tempted to go harder on engines. And you actually can. I mean when you see pan car with sauced tires easily cope with 9 ports top level motors, you just put your hands up.

But we must be honest and say also that with toe in everybody is able to enjoy RWD without spinning around.

I do it for fun too, but every damn category is going up in complexity and competitiveness.
Great to have this dialog with you! The Intrepid car looks great and I know there are some guys that would like to get ahold of one here (Matt!!!). The only Pan car that we know of being imported is the P8C and it is a good car and Garen's support is great. I race at the Toledo, OH club and (hopefully)the MidWest Series, both will have a Pan class this year, and all the cars are Motonica (I think there could be 10-12 this year!). I just don't like to have what everybody else runs so I went out on a limb and got an obsolete DFX. The ground effect tunnels are cool (remind me of our MRP Pro 180's) and I like the fiberglass chassis.

Interesting you mention the rear toe. I am working on a design that is basically an Associated 300 with a u-joint in the rear axle so you can adjust rear toe!

Thanks for the info on the relative performance of the cars where you race. Many of the guys here think the pan chassis cannot handle much power so the motors won't matter. Your experience suggests that a 3 port would not stand a chance against a real race motor!!!

Great "talking" with you!
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:59 AM   #1259
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You won't go wrong with Motonica. But there is plenty of choice, at least here.
Top level chassis are also WRC ( http://www.wrc-racing.com/ita/rccar_dett.php ), BP racing ( http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1157 ), and the Z1 we were discussing above, and some other craft made italian cars. Then, there are french cars.

WRC in particular was kind of a earthquake when came out few years ago! It was something like half a second faster of everything else...! They really raised the bar, with a car having much more traction than everybody had.

Talking about rear toe in, when it was finally liberalized we saw the birth of systems to adopt 4WD rear hub carriers on "old" chassis born with no toe.

http://www.tg1hobby.com/Web%20Rigida...posteriore.htm

With rear toe in everybody is able to handle at least a Nova Race or max Power XL7 or Piccos or whatever fast. To deal with 9 ports Novas is a bit more tricky since they have a rather aggressive power delivery.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:17 AM   #1260
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The Intrepid car looks great and I know there are some guys that would like to get ahold of one here (Matt!!!). !
.................definately want one......,,,........http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1157 that also looks like a sweet ride....
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