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Old 07-03-2011, 03:50 PM   #421
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One difference I see between vintage and modern 2wd cars is adjustability. Vintage cars have no rear camber or toe adjustment, and no front camber adjustment. Front castor adjustment is built into front axle parts in old cars, except for the SGs, which have a front end now copied by the new designs.

Are these added adjustments an advantage?
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:26 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
Last year at one of the Toledo club races I raced my Motonica P8C against 4wd cars. It was a real up hill battle that I did okay in. However it is what it is, and would be better suited to race other 2wd cars. A 2wd car is a much harder car to drive fast thus a good run in 2wd might feel a bite more rewarding? I don't went to make it sound as 4wd is super easy. Nope a fast guy in 4wd is pushing every bite as hard, but his car is aiding him more.
!/8th 4wd drive is the very top of r/c car racing, but a lower 2wd class could be a blast!
I can agree with that statement. I ran 2wd back in the late 80's and early 90's and the car requirers a different style to be fast as you have to roll the corners. We used to run both 2wd and 4wd cars together and we could put several 2wd drives in the main. Ran with some national a-main drivers from both classes. Stll can't hangwith them in 4wd but could in 2wd.
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:30 PM   #423
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One difference I see between vintage and modern 2wd cars is adjustability. Vintage cars have no rear camber or toe adjustment, and no front camber adjustment. Front castor adjustment is built into front axle parts in old cars, except for the SGs, which have a front end now copied by the new designs.

Are these added adjustments an advantage?
I agree and disagree. The cars back in the day, did not have the adjustability, but some of us modified our cars. Still have my Serpent 6010 that had camber and castor in the front suspension.

Yes this can make a quick car out of a dog.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:33 PM   #424
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Default RIGHT ON!!

You guys are hitting on all cylinders now.The old car had height adjustment, diff adjustments, and the also the very important wing adjustment in the rear. In the front was toe in and some camber and height adjustment with shims. Clutch set up was important then also. MRP brought out a super simple treak adjuster that worked very well. The clutch pinon to the spur gear on the axle made it very easy to work on, and light. My Rick Davis RC 300 used to nail everything going on to the straight away (for about 40 ft.)
My opinion would be that if you were not going to put any of these cars (old pan, new pan, or 4wd) on a real race track, you might be wasting your time and money. These are all full out racers in their own right. Blasting up and down a parking lot by yourself isn't fun for very long! Get some buddies into it too, or try something else.
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:27 AM   #425
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Question is: can a delta super j or associated rc 300 race even with the new cars or should they run in two different sub classes?
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:21 AM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
My opinion would be that if you were not going to put any of these cars (old pan, new pan, or 4wd) on a real race track, you might be wasting your time and money. These are all full out racers in their own right. Blasting up and down a parking lot by yourself isn't fun for very long! Get some buddies into it too, or try something else.
Talking for my self, I have some buddies that run occasionally on a race track.
But theyīre all running GT2, and hell will freeze over before I buy a RTR-Kyosho.
So just to drive together with them I thought this might be a good choice.
Getting a little tired of my buggy also and was thinking of trying something different.
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:21 PM   #427
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Smile EAT EM UP!

NitroVein, Really?? GT2 cars?? If you are running on a smooth track with good traction, old pan, new pan, or4wd, you'll kill em big time. They'll stop playing with you or get what you have (or better). Not so smooth and less traction, the 4wd will still kill em!
Cost of buying old pan car maybe cheaper at start but chasing 20 year old parts could be more costly in the end. New pan car cost more to start and no parts problem, however it's harder to drive fast and needs good track condictions. Perhaps a used 4wd car is where you went to go. New enough to get parts for. I love the pan cars old and new but a 4wd 1/8th car is the F1 car of RC. A good running 4wd makes anyone look good. If you have some RC back ground and went to spend in the range of a GT2, a used 4wd is worth looking at. Your buddies will see it and went one too!
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:23 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
NitroVein, Really?? GT2 cars?? If you are running on a smooth track with good traction, old pan, new pan, or4wd, you'll kill em big time. They'll stop playing with you or get what you have (or better). Not so smooth and less traction, the 4wd will still kill em!
Cost of buying old pan car maybe cheaper at start but chasing 20 year old parts could be more costly in the end. New pan car cost more to start and no parts problem, however it's harder to drive fast and needs good track condictions. Perhaps a used 4wd car is where you went to go. New enough to get parts for. I love the pan cars old and new but a 4wd 1/8th car is the F1 car of RC. A good running 4wd makes anyone look good. If you have some RC back ground and went to spend in the range of a GT2, a used 4wd is worth looking at. Your buddies will see it and went one too!
Yeap! The first call has arrived; "Shouldn't you get something similar that we run?"
No complaint when I had a Xray NT18 last time...
All joking aside, I canīt keep anything as it is when it comes to the technical parts. On a Pan Car there isn't that much to do and not so many parts to maintain. Seems more simple/cheap and looks to run quite good nevertheless.
Thought about building a GT on a D8, but the price tag will far exceed that of a Classic. And far more parts to maintain...
I guess a 4wd chassis with a GT-style body on it could fool them for a couple of laps.
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:19 PM   #429
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I'll answer some questions and posts some opinions of my own. I have been running my Motonica P8C 2wd for nearly 2 years now. The car has been driven by at least 20 different people, of varying ability, at 4 different tracks. It is still using the same stock Motonica 3 port engine (made by Novarossi, used to be sold under the TOP label, vertical cooling fins), original clutch, belt, diff. The only parts changed on the car are tires, body (original body got smashed up a bit), and some of the front end parts broken in very hard hits, usually against parked cars on the straight or immovable objects (track boards, etc.)

The cost of the P8C kit is cheaper than any of the 4wd full suspension cars. The cost is about 25% cheaper, and one can argue they are still expensive, but factor in the combo kit price offered by Motonica, which includes engine, header, and pipe, and the fact that you don't need any option parts to make the car 'work', the start up cost is not that high.

I have not driven any of the other 2wd pan cars, but I am sure they are all fine cars. Speaking of the P8C, it is very easy to drive and very fun to drive. I can also get the BP car, that is no problem. I don't know the cost of the BP car, but it looks very nice.

The P8C, and I have to assume the other 2wd cars, are not difficult to drive. You don't hammer the throttle and you have to be a little smoother in the turns, and the car drives just fine. Nearly everyone who has driven the car has gotten a hang of it within a few laps.

The P8C requires almost no maintenance, other than cleaning and battery charging. This means you spend more time driving or relaxing at the track instead of constantly wrenching.


There is no advantage to running faster or higher priced engines. My stock buggy based 3 port motor goes plenty fast, gets about 8 minutes a tank, uses cheaper non turbo glow plugs, and has lasted a very long time. Any more power will likely make the car difficult to drive and burn tires faster. The clutch in my car is not set to kill, so a hotter motor is only a waste of money.


Tires last much longer. The car weighs less. Since you drive smoother, tires don't wear as fast. Front tires are normally 5 or 10 points harder and since they don't drive the car, they last way longer. On our track here in LA, I would say rear tires last 2 to 3 times longer, and front tires about 3 to 4 times longer. Also, I can run tires down to about 66mm rear and 60mm front (or even smaller), as the chassis never bottoms out.


Speaking only for the P8C, it is not at all complicated. I don't know how the pan cars were back in the 80's and early 90's (I am not that old!), but compared to GT cars, 1/8th 4wd cars, 1/8th buggies, 1/10th GP and EP cars, the car is very simple. If you can build any of these other cars, this car is very easy. Judging from photos of all the other pan cars, I would say they are all more or less the same in terms of simplicity.


It is pointless to compare the 2wd cars to the 4wd cars we race normally. My lap times are about 2 to 3 seconds a lap slower compared to my P81RS. Even if I run a GT body (yes Motonica makes GT bodies for 1/8th 4wd and 2wd cars), I am still way faster than buggy based GT cars (foam or rubber tires) without the high cost and complicated design. At our bigger club events I might qualify 6th or 7th in the expert class with my 4wd and about 9th or 10th in the sportsman class (usually about 2 laps slower) with my 2wd. I am still faster than the bottom of the 1/10th A main. I can run a 20 minute main with 2 pit stops, and use the same front tires all weekend.


I am sure the adjustments on the newer generation of pan cars are a huge advantage over the old pan cars. The same can be said about the 4wd cars. Try racing your mid 90's 4wd car against any of the current 4wd cars. Having said that, I do very little tuning on the car, track to track. I run the caster all the way back, keep the front and rear width the same, along with camber and toe. I started with 30K diff oil and have worked up to 100K and that seems to work good. I think I have run the same exact setup for the past 12+ months. The only thing I tune on the car is rear tires, 32 shore for lower traction, and 35 or 37 shore for high traction. I run 45 shore front tires all the time.


Would I like to see this class grow (again)? Yes of course. I think for nitro on road it is important to bring in new people instead of recycling from the same group of guys. Long term low cost, ease of assembly, low maintenance, and most of all, high fun factor, make the P8C, and I am sure some or most of the other 2wd cars, an excellent option for newcomers or racers transferring from other classes of racing.

One last thing, Motonica makes a 4wd version of the pan car, called the P8F. I don't see the point in this car, but some people like it and to each there own. The P8C and P8F are virtually identical except for the addition of the belts, spool, pulleys, one way, and hardware to do the conversion. It is possible to switch back and forth, and in my opinion, a 4wd pan car with a GT body, is faster, easier to drive, and much cheaper to operate than the current buggy based GT cars.

Everyone is talking about the high costs of racing. There are good alternatives.
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:45 PM   #430
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Very good observation. Back in the late 80's / early 90's most of us were taking 4wd cars and removing the front drive parts. The rear diff was a ball diff, so it would roll the corners. So if we can work on the rear diffs there would be many used 4wd cars that could be had for little money.

Yes tire wear was much less than 4wd, and with only rear wheel drive, engine power is kind of wasted unless you use soft tires, which do not last in the mains.

I still have some of the Serpent diffs, BMT was good but Delta was very good. Maybe the guys in Iowa, may still be able to track them down.

Wonder who else still has some of the GTP 1/8 scale bodies ...... I know I do
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:17 PM   #431
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Thank you "garen" for taking the time to write all of that. I found that most useful and it only confirmed what I thought.
I hope that some from southern-Europe that compete with these on a regular basis will give some information on the different brands thatīs out there.
Not that I have found any other car for the price that Motonica offers there car for With an engine. Seems to be a solid brand, and I do want to be able to get spares easy (if any should be needed).
(Remember those years I worked as a auto-mechanic, all French brands where a nightmare when it came to finding the right parts )
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:34 PM   #432
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Some of the parts on the P8C are shared with the current P81 series, a few parts are shared with the previous generation P8.0 series. I stock parts as best as I can for this car, and the most commonly broken/replaced parts are the front bumper, body mount and body mount support plate, and front hub mount.
By the way, Motonica is an Italian brand. Hope you have had better experience with Italian brands...
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:37 PM   #433
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Hay Garen, glad to hear you're still out there. What sort of GT body do you have? Setting a completely different car down might draw some attention to the pan. You don't race this set up against the GT2 cars, do you? Back in the day we had allot GTs to pick from, life was good!
While I get dragged back into 4wd (that's where my buddies are running), I haven't spent allot time with my P8Cs. My grand kids had no problem breaking the front end (steering and body mounts) I have raced mine and really enjoyed it! However, Motonicas system of set front tweak doesn't seem that great. If I had the time, putting an older, stronger, easier to adjust old front end on could be worth while.
Are you having any luck getting 2wd going out there? I've let people try mine and they think it's cool, but not enough to have them even think about getting one. The racer running a 4wd program pretty much has his hands full already. What ROAR should do is run 2wd for the Masters class! GTs at that. I really don't understand how at ROAR events, an older racer can run the same car in Open and Masters, while the younger racer can only run in Open, just seems crazy to me.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:36 AM   #434
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No Garen, no bad experience with Italian brands.
I was looking at the DXF (among others) which is a French brand. But they are a small company that only manufacture a Pan Car.
Motonica has other cars besides their Classic which as you mentioned also shares parts with other models, so I donīt think spare parts will be a problem in the near future. (especially the plastic parts, everything else I can fabricate my self, if needed)

How long will a set of tires last approx? Iīm new to on-road, so I have no clue.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:55 AM   #435
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Tire life depends a lot on the racing surface. On our current home track, 4wd cars go through a set of tires in 30 to 40 minutes. At our old track (Revelation) you could run one set of tires all weekend.

GT body can be seen here: http://www.motonica.com/en/products/BODY_8

I have not raced my car directly against the GT cars, but it would be no contest, they are much slower. I have even seen the GT body used on a P81 Electric and it drove amazingly well.

I have sold a few of the 2wd cars, but it has not caught on. As for ROAR rules, check with your region director and perhaps the pres and vp, I don't have any comments to make right now.
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