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Old 10-31-2013, 09:39 AM   #3361
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I spoke too soon, I assumed we could proceed with manufacture of what we have at least. With that rule proposal on the floor and the potential for its incorporation, we are now officially at all stop on this end. Granted, any geared diff could be considered a type of gearbox, tho I would assume (see, there's a mistake right there, assuming) that a gearbox is meant to be defined as multi-gear/multi speed, but others could get selective on the definition and it'd still rule us out. Doesn't mean we can't still play, of course, just means we can't produce a car for sale. In any event, it'd be silly for us to proceed with manufacture with the possibility of our product being excluded. I've pulled myself out of the voting process on the "rules" as I've explained, we are content to sit back and wait for the consensus, and we'll work with whatever we're left to work with.
At a stop???... Why???. Your car fits the "rules"...I say any type of diff ok..
be it gear/ ball or Torsen... All have advantages/ disadvantages... Class
wil be ruined with to many rules...gear box... Ie gear reduction ok....SINGLE
speed only.....
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:16 AM   #3362
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I spoke too soon, I assumed we could proceed with manufacture of what we have at least. With that rule proposal on the floor and the potential for its incorporation, we are now officially at all stop on this end... I've pulled myself out of the voting process on the "rules" as I've explained, we are content to sit back and wait for the consensus, and we'll work with whatever we're left to work with.
I have also halted on my build, but for the reason of a possible requirement (which I support) that the rear wheels, drivetrain, and engine be "locked" together in a fixed relationship. Every existing car (that I know about) already meets this rule.

We should be updating Ned's post #3323 as the accepted rules. As he stated, he is not deciding for us, he is simply serving as the recorder. It is REALLY important that all the rules that we agree upon should be found in exactly one post.

Let's not get caught up in semantics; "gearbox" can be construed as several different things. Post #3323 already says "No variable or multi speed transmissions", and that is perfect. The drivetrain can consist of belts or gears, as long as the total ratio isn't variable while the car is moving.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:06 PM   #3363
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I thought we where trying figure out rules not to ban any cars from pan class as yet. We can not go buy old rules because they where removed form ROAR rules unless some one has old ROAR rule book. So lets move forward on all maybe have one other , floating front end or rear but not both.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:22 PM   #3364
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i have a pdf copy of 2010 not enough details but could send somebody a copy via email
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:27 PM   #3365
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i have a pdf copy of 2010 not enough details but could send somebody a copy via email
I was talking about 1975 copy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:06 PM   #3366
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lol those would of got gone in the first divorce

now Phil he never throws things out hey phil second box third row in the 4th stack i bet its there
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:12 PM   #3367
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lol those would of got gone in the first divorce

now Phil he never throws things out hey phil second box third row in the 4th stack i bet its there
Ha bloody ha....no such luck. Lots of paperwork did not survive 27 years in storage, tho every now and then I do find more stuff I didn't know I had. But while you're here, how do you like the new GT8 rules?? If they do in fact wind up dq'ing Ofna, you can always put a pan together with leftover....
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:10 PM   #3368
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Ha bloody ha....no such luck. Lots of paperwork did not survive 27 years in storage, tho every now and then I do find more stuff I didn't know I had. But while you're here, how do you like the new GT8 rules?? If they do in fact wind up dq'ing Ofna, you can always put a pan together with leftover....
what happened with Ofna??..........just saw ROAR rules.....what a joke....
"If a racer should choose to race this class at a Level 4 or 5 event then the racer may not enter any other classes at that event."...what the hell is that???..
whats a level 4 or 5 event?....
..........Those GT guys are already arguing more than us?....LOL
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:49 PM   #3369
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LOL it will not boot out any of them. mine it will because of the custom chassis plate but not because it is flat because i extended both ends to except different bumpers so it is not "factory or factory upgrade" and the way i interpret the new rules doe not keep the manufacturer from making flat chassis cars you just cant flatten out a conversion (MY interpretation) hey I'll just have to run my edam instead of GT next year
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:00 PM   #3370
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LOL it will not boot out any of them. mine it will because of the custom chassis plate but not because it is flat because i extended both ends to except different bumpers so it is not "factory or factory upgrade" and the way i interpret the new rules doe not keep the manufacturer from making flat chassis cars you just cant flatten out a conversion (MY interpretation) hey I'll just have to run my edam instead of GT next year
First, you still owe me some kind of idea on making parts. Oh yeah. And I'm serious about cannabalizing yon GT to build a pan, just take our parts and throw your drivetrain to it....and it'd use all those EDAM (wake up Lon) spares ya got as well. And prior to starting next year, got some setup tips to hand out for the 4wd, I was pretty happy with my car at Dayton till some guy tangled with me three times on the backstraight. Running the 15t Serpent pinion helped a lot.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:26 PM   #3371
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i did run it a little in dayton saturday night talking about traction roll lol and wheel stands out of the corners with that buggy motor LOL but loaded it up before i broke it

and who has to canibalize i have 6 0r 7 cen gear diffs sitting here in boxes and center mounts ect besides the ofna stuff lol dont want to use up all the spares <G> i am gonna need them but then again i do have a bunch of OS1 tires i need to use up
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:14 PM   #3372
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I love you all as your passion for our hobby is out standing. Please, if you were building something, carry on as that part of the hobby is very important. If it weren't for that spirit, we never would have gotten to the fun hobby we're in. This rule thing is dragging us down and I see lots of stuff I haven't a clue what it mean, nor do I care. These cars have been doing just fine here in Toledo. Most of the cars are kits created to compete over seas. On the new cars its easy; If it was built to run over there and has met their rules, in Toledo, its good to go! We'll keep are ears to the ground and see what's the latest from them, but unless a car has some sort of vast edge on the field, it has a home here.

I have always said that the old cars should be able to run in what ever state the owner presents them in. I love the old cars and feel lucky to see them run again. These cars can mix it up with the newer cars in fine order, sadly the lack of spares will most likely prevent them from kicking our asses. Nope, these guy run out of respect for their great history. This is also an area we in 2wd pan get to enjoy while the other class just want to go as fast as they can.( In my mind, this means a Thorp with trans can play too!)

In the beginning, guys had to build everything themselves, a long lost part of the hobby that once again, 2wd pan gives rebirth to, Please don't stop for any reason. We have been lucky that the pan class is far more about the pure fun of RC cars then going fast and I'm beginning to think we might be getting dragged away from this.

The idea of everybody sharing the same rules so we can all race together is a good plan and we should try to get there. However I'm starting to feel that our program is the right one and anyone can join in.

I will start to try and put down how Toledo has been playing for years. Any Toledo One Eighth Racers and perhaps MWS future pan races, should feel free to add or subtract as needed.

The fact we started with a simple 3-port motor has only been a good thing as the faster guys can run strong, the middle of the pack doesn't feel left in the dust, and the newer drivers aren't hitting as hard and making it to the end of the race more often. The only time a 3-port looked lacking was when a hotter motor jumped it on the straight away, now people think they need a hotter motor, but they don't. I suggest that Toledo keep its 3-port plan, only open it up to the turbo 3-port. $150 to $200 can get you all the motor we need. If you have to use up a 5, 7, or 9 port motor, ok but lets choke it down alot, get rid of that punch.

The idea that if you have gained a large advantage over the field , you might be asked to change something should also be floating around. Lets face it, if it ever comes to this, that racer would know himself way before anyone said anything. Look!, it's not about cheating, it's about keeping things close.

Getting late and I need as much beauty sleep as I can get! I'll be back with more later. We are talking Toledo and perhaps the MWS, so don't get real shook up if you're racing else where. Our team of experts is still looking at those rules.

P.S. I'll do some tech work at club races, weight and motors mostly, just for fun!
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:35 AM   #3373
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Ha bloody ha....no such luck. Lots of paperwork did not survive 27 years in storage, tho every now and then I do find more stuff I didn't know I had. But while you're here, how do you like the new GT8 rules?? If they do in fact wind up dq'ing Ofna, you can always put a pan together with leftover....
yes I no I was reading my copy in the out house in 1976 I found out sears book was gone and all what was left was in my hand
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:00 AM   #3374
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
I love you all as your passion for our hobby is out standing. Please, if you were building something, carry on as that part of the hobby is very important. If it weren't for that spirit, we never would have gotten to the fun hobby we're in. This rule thing is dragging us down and I see lots of stuff I haven't a clue what it mean, nor do I care. These cars have been doing just fine here in Toledo. Most of the cars are kits created to compete over seas. On the new cars its easy; If it was built to run over there and has met their rules, in Toledo, its good to go! We'll keep are ears to the ground and see what's the latest from them, but unless a car has some sort of vast edge on the field, it has a home here.

I have always said that the old cars should be able to run in what ever state the owner presents them in. I love the old cars and feel lucky to see them run again. These cars can mix it up with the newer cars in fine order, sadly the lack of spares will most likely prevent them from kicking our asses. Nope, these guy run out of respect for their great history. This is also an area we in 2wd pan get to enjoy while the other class just want to go as fast as they can.( In my mind, this means a Thorp with trans can play too!)

In the beginning, guys had to build everything themselves, a long lost part of the hobby that once again, 2wd pan gives rebirth to, Please don't stop for any reason. We have been lucky that the pan class is far more about the pure fun of RC cars then going fast and I'm beginning to think we might be getting dragged away from this.

The idea of everybody sharing the same rules so we can all race together is a good plan and we should try to get there. However I'm starting to feel that our program is the right one and anyone can join in.

I will start to try and put down how Toledo has been playing for years. Any Toledo One Eighth Racers and perhaps MWS future pan races, should feel free to add or subtract as needed.

The fact we started with a simple 3-port motor has only been a good thing as the faster guys can run strong, the middle of the pack doesn't feel left in the dust, and the newer drivers aren't hitting as hard and making it to the end of the race more often. The only time a 3-port looked lacking was when a hotter motor jumped it on the straight away, now people think they need a hotter motor, but they don't. I suggest that Toledo keep its 3-port plan, only open it up to the turbo 3-port. $150 to $200 can get you all the motor we need. If you have to use up a 5, 7, or 9 port motor, ok but lets choke it down alot, get rid of that punch.

The idea that if you have gained a large advantage over the field , you might be asked to change something should also be floating around. Lets face it, if it ever comes to this, that racer would know himself way before anyone said anything. Look!, it's not about cheating, it's about keeping things close.

Getting late and I need as much beauty sleep as I can get! I'll be back with more later. We are talking Toledo and perhaps the MWS, so don't get real shook up if you're racing else where. Our team of experts is still looking at those rules.

P.S. I'll do some tech work at club races, weight and motors mostly, just for fun!
Meh...I probably bear some blame for having brought an old Delta to the track and running it in the first place. As we speak, Tom is at work seeing about making new parts for the Delta diffs in case that's all we have left to run. And I may be the only guy with a Thorp but I'm not about to finish assembly and run it....seemed like a good idea some time ago, but we've gotten so into building new cars, and running something with variable speed against single speed doesn't quite seem fair. But I wouldn't exempt that guy either. Onroad has had enough problems....exempting anyone without extremely good reason is short sighted. We need new blood, and we won't get it by throwing rules at 'em too early in the game.

I'm not worried about guys going too fast. First, we're going to get some of our newbies from guys tired of 4wd...but if the cars are too "pokey," some will lose interest. For example, way back when, if I attended a race and Art Carbonell and Rick Davis showed up, I had a reasonable idea the best I'd do that day would be third place. I could have borrowed the warp engines off the Enterprise and still finished third. For a few, lots of speed is helpful, but clean driving and keeping a car out of the boards is what wins a race. Some of the guys we pick up, being former 4wd members, will be using higher port used engines which will be comparable to the guy with a new 3 port. I am in favor tho of asking someone with too much of an advantage to back it off a little. I believe strongly in self policing and the honor system to ensure cars are legal, partly because I believe our racers to be decent people, and partly because we're playing with expensive toys. Anyone so morally low as to intentionally cheat in a pan race is of such lousy character that they'll move on to something else soon anyways, so we don't have to worry about that person.

As for tech....meh....you want to do that, I'll help. Does make sense, tho, because it's just silly throwing a swollen set of rules at people with no enforcement.

PS...no amount of sleep is going to help you at this point, damage has been done.....
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:29 AM   #3375
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
Please, if you were building something, carry on as that part of the hobby is very important. If it weren't for that spirit, we never would have gotten to the fun hobby we're in. This rule thing is dragging us down and I see lots of stuff I haven't a clue what it mean, nor do I care. These cars have been doing just fine here in Toledo. Most of the cars are kits created to compete over seas. On the new cars its easy; If it was built to run over there and has met their rules, in Toledo, its good to go! We'll keep are ears to the ground and see what's the latest from them, but unless a car has some sort of vast edge on the field, it has a home here...

The idea that if you have gained a large advantage over the field , you might be asked to change something should also be floating around. Lets face it, if it ever comes to this, that racer would know himself way before anyone said anything. Look!, it's not about cheating, it's about keeping things close.
If I understand this correctly, you are saying that I (or any other prospective manufacturer) should invest hundreds of hours and hundreds (or thousands) of dollars to build a car that fits my interpretation of what the rules are, and then if it proves too fast, I won't be allowed to race it. That's not an option for me.

Here's a (somewhat related) hypothetical situation: A manufacturer wants to create a new car and sell it. Let's assume its design is very conservative, so there is virtually no chance it will be illegal under any given rule set. In order to sell cars, the manufacturer retains the services of the best driver available (as is normally done). The car/driver combination then utterly dominates every race entered. Will the car be declared illegal? If Josh Cyrul is the driver, then we might say the car is okay; the difference is the driver only. But if the driver is unknown, yet still light-years ahead of the other drivers, what will the decision be?

Furthermore, who will make these decisions?

I (and others) believe that it's the LACK of rules that is dragging us down.

By definition, it's not "cheating" if there are no rules to break.
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