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Old 10-29-2013, 09:27 PM   #3331
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Joe T had a really good year, but he did it by virtue of not having the fastest car, but the cleanest driving. I'd bet money that next year, Rick (and hopefully at least one other, lol) will break 20 with a pan, but it will take more than a 3 port engine to get it done.
Phil,
Check the actual results, Joe was the top qualifier in almost all of the club races this year. He won more than 20 of 27 qualifying races! From the JLap records, which may be incomplete, Joe was the only one to get into the 21 second lap time. The best recorded lap for Rick was 22.7 to Joes 21.3. Joe generally qualified over 2 seconds faster than the second qualifier.

Not to take anything away from Rick. He is a great builder and driver for sure. And if he seriously runs in the pan class he will be right at the top. The point is that Joe is the fastest and most reliable pan racer in the USA!!! (I sold him my car!)

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Old 10-29-2013, 09:38 PM   #3332
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
We're working on a t-plate build as well, and the rear pod (tires, axles and diff) are independent of the transmission and engine. We're forced in that direction simply because of our Kyosho style drive...everyone else has their entire unit in the rear, and our engine is a mid-mount. You'll have to count Tom and I opposed to that rule proposal. Also doesn't seem fair in light of the WRC's where the entire front can rock, I don't see a difference between one or the other.
All the existing cars are required to have the engine, transmission, and drive train attached to one piece. The difference is you want to change the rear of the car not the front. Actually the front end is the same too. All pieces are attached to one plate.

Just because you have chosen to go a different way you should not be exempt from the rules/norms. Go back to the drawing board and lengthen the rear plate to include the engine and trans as well as the tires, axles, and diff!!

This is only my opinion. We know what Phil thinks. Any other comments?

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Old 10-29-2013, 09:46 PM   #3333
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
This will be the "official" listing of the suggested pan car rules some of us are trying to come up with get things "off-center.
I will update it as the consensus seems to suggest and it can be adopted, by whoever sees fit!



1) Any 2wd chassis that has no obvious form of independent suspension Rear wheel drive only (Locked Suspension cars allowed but not recommended)

2) No variable or multi speed transmissions

3) 5 or less port engines (More ports allowed but not recommended)

4) Any approved body

5) Minimum weight 2300 grams (with transponder, no fuel)

6) All other applicable ROAR rules apply

7) No liquid-filled dampers (shock absorbers) allowed. (added 10-29-13)



Let me know of any additions or changes I'll get something done!!
Lets get something settled on this and move on to other things!!
I'd change #4 to allow any body whatsoever (or do away with it entirely.) I've looked at the ROAR list as to approved bodies, it's a mess, and doesn't include us for diddly. Getting bodies on that list would cost some $$$ as well. Some guys like vintage style bodies, I ran the same type body as on my 4wd, but I want to play with an Indy body (open wheel).

If you must include a rule about shocks (#7), then please add to it no suspension or suspension resulting effects actuated by rubber grommets or piano wire as well.

What is the reason for changing weight from 2270 to 2300?

As an aside, there wasn't much interest in a concours event at the GLC this year. I'm going to call up Protoform and ask them if they would be interested in sponsoring such a thing....if they will, I'll volunteer to add on to the sponsorship and propose it to Hammer & co for inclusion at the next GLC.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:51 PM   #3334
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Default Heh

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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Phil,
Check the actual results, Joe was the top qualifier in almost all of the club races this year. He won more than 20 of 27 qualifying races! From the JLap records, which may be incomplete, Joe was the only one to get into the 21 second lap time. The best recorded lap for Rick was 22.7 to Joes 21.3. Joe generally qualified over 2 seconds faster than the second qualifier.

Not to take anything away from Rick. He is a great builder and driver for sure. And if he seriously runs in the pan class he will be right at the top. The point is that Joe is the fastest and most reliable pan racer in the USA!!! (I sold him my car!)

Ned
Well, not to dispute Jlaps, but in practice, I was watching his laps in practice. 20's and 21's.

"All the existing cars are required to have the engine, transmission, and drive train attached to one piece. The difference is you want to change the rear of the car not the front. Actually the front end is the same too. All pieces are attached to one plate."

Just a quick look, but I can't find that rule. What page is it on?
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:57 PM   #3335
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phil you have a PM
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:21 PM   #3336
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
All the existing cars are required to have the engine, transmission, and drive train attached to one piece. The difference is you want to change the rear of the car not the front. Actually the front end is the same too. All pieces are attached to one plate.

Just because you have chosen to go a different way you should not be exempt from the rules/norms. Go back to the drawing board and lengthen the rear plate to include the engine and trans as well as the tires, axles, and diff!!

This is only my opinion. We know what Phil thinks. Any other comments?

Ned
"Just because you have chosen to go a different way you should not be exempt from the rules/norms."

Really. Hm.

First, I was unaware that was a written rule (and still can't find it, but I'm more than happy to take your word for it). I'd be the last person to violate it, and I doubt my pride would allow me to ask for an exemption while everyone else plays by the rules. At the most, if it is a rule, I would have asked for consensus to void it, but I'd never knowingly violate it, and I'm more than a little perturbed that you would think so.

I was against having this "rule" thing because we're too small and new to get picky. I honestly felt we had enough on paper and in conversation that it wasn't necessary, and wanted to avoid this whole process until such time when it would be more apt.

This issue of rules has gone back and forth for months, unproductively. Tell you what, Ned....you write 'em up however you want them and I'll follow them to the letter. I'm going to build pan cars, run laps and have fun, but as of this moment, I am $%^@#$@ done with this issue.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:33 PM   #3337
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
I'd change #4 to allow any body whatsoever (or do away with it entirely.) I've looked at the ROAR list as to approved bodies, it's a mess, and doesn't include us for diddly. Getting bodies on that list would cost some $$$ as well. Some guys like vintage style bodies, I ran the same type body as on my 4wd, but I want to play with an Indy body (open wheel).

Point understood. Any body else have a comment?

If you must include a rule about shocks (#7), then please add to it no suspension or suspension resulting effects actuated by rubber grommets or piano wire as well.

Please word your comment in the form of an enforceable rule. I don't follow "actuated by..." Do you mean like the Motonica type front which "sits" on rubber disks? What about the newer type which is mounted on pivot ball things?
First of all, wouldn't that make most of the modern pan cars illegal? If so, you have just killed the class. If that's what the majority want, I'll write it in, no problem. This shouldn't be a conversation between a couple of people....I'm expressing my opinion as an interested party, NOT saying that what I think has to be the rule. Aren't you doing the same thing?


What is the reason for changing weight from 2270 to 2300?

Oops! My mistake. Thanks for pointing that out!

As an aside, there wasn't much interest in a concours event at the GLC this year. I'm going to call up Protoform and ask them if they would be interested in sponsoring such a thing....if they will, I'll volunteer to add on to the sponsorship and propose it to Hammer & co for inclusion at the next GLC.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:34 PM   #3338
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Well, everyone else has taken a crack at writing a set, so I thought I'd try my hand as well...

1/8th 2wd Fuel Onroad Pan Car Rules
Length: Maximum 637 mm
Width: Maximum 267 mm
Height to top of wing: Maximum 190 mm
Wheelbase : Maximum 330 mm, Minimum 270 mm
Weight: 2300 g including transponder and without fuel
Wheels:
Diameter: Maximum 54 mm, Minimum 44.45 mm
Width: Front Maximum 37 mm, Rear Maximum 64 mm
Tires:
Tire type: Foam only
Diameter: Front Maximum N/A, Rear Maximum N/A
Width: Front Maximum 37 mm, Rear Maximum 64 mm
Body style: Can-Am, Sports/GT, or WSC. ** Local rules can designate alternative body styles and dimensions.
Rear Spoiler: Chord Maximum 77 mm, Width Maximum 267 mm
Rear Wing: Chord Maximum 78.75 mm, Width Maximum 267 mm
Side dam: Length Maximum 76.2 mm, Height Maximum 38 mm
Wheel arch cut-outs: Maximum 13 mm over tire diameter
Upper body widths will be checked by placing a caliper or similar tool, legs down, across the top of the body at any point.
Engine size: .21 ci only. ** Local rules can further restrict engines using port count, price limits, carb restrictors, bearing materials, etc.
Fuel capacity: 125cc
Transmission: Single-speed only
Differential: Gear and ball type both permitted
Clutch: Offroad-style clutches only. No axial clutches. Friction surface of all clutch shoes must be parallel to the crank/ground.
Drive: 2WD, rear drive only
Suspension: Wheels may not be independently suspended. Use of springs and liquid filled dampers as suspension components is not permitted. Chassis may be constructed from several fixed elements solidly joined except for the natural flexibility of the materials, as long as:
- The movement of the fixed elements are only dampened using friction or elastomeric materials.
- The rear wheels are not articulated relative to the engine and drive train. If articulated to the chassis, the rear wheels, engine, and drive train must all move as a single unit.
** Local rules can permit “vintage” cars with suspension to participate as long as the suspension is “locked” by replacing springs and dampeners with solid turnbuckles.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:43 PM   #3339
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Well, not to dispute Jlaps, but in practice, I was watching his laps in practice. 20's and 21's.

As you know, I was not at the races. I can only go by the written record.

"All the existing cars are required to have the engine, transmission, and drive train attached to one piece. The difference is you want to change the rear of the car not the front. Actually the front end is the same too. All pieces are attached to one plate."

Just a quick look, but I can't find that rule. What page is it on?
Good point! I read too much of the European stuff and the history of how this class was developed and the rules written for the areas of the who have taken time to develop and record rules. There kind of hard to understand because of the translation but here you go:

2.2.2
CLASSIC Category:
- 4 wheels.
- Drive through the rear wheels.
- No variable ratio transmission (Transmission, ...).
- Locking differential or Torsen-type prohibited.
- Block frame without joint, which may consist of
several elements secured integrally to each other and forming
a non-deformable together, apart from the natural flexibility
materials.
- No independent wheels:
- No relative movement between the wheels of a
same train outside the steering effect.
- The level of a train (before or rear)
must be attached to one member (plate
where articulated chassis).
- If rear axle articulated levels of
driving the dynamic axis of the drive wheels
must be attached to a same element.
- Settings pinch, camber and track are
allowed on all wheels, but must remain constant
running.
- The use of gimbals is accepted.
- No damping or any flexible systems on the
frame itself, only the possibility of a support member
front axle when rear hinged maximum 3 points is
authorized.
- No suspensions, or even blocked.
- When using rockets their mountings must beings
provided by (at least) integral with a bearing element
support train (or Av Arr.)
- Minimum weight: 2300 grams (with transponder
empty tank).


Looks like this is where I copied the "2300gr" from....

DISCLAIMER: I post this information only to answer Phil's question. I am NOT in any way saying that these are rules for our discussion here.

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Old 10-29-2013, 10:55 PM   #3340
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
"Just because you have chosen to go a different way you should not be exempt from the rules/norms."

Really. Hm.

First, I was unaware that was a written rule (and still can't find it, but I'm more than happy to take your word for it). I'd be the last person to violate it, and I doubt my pride would allow me to ask for an exemption while everyone else plays by the rules. At the most, if it is a rule, I would have asked for consensus to void it, but I'd never knowingly violate it, and I'm more than a little perturbed that you would think so.

I was against having this "rule" thing because we're too small and new to get picky. I honestly felt we had enough on paper and in conversation that it wasn't necessary, and wanted to avoid this whole process until such time when it would be more apt.

This issue of rules has gone back and forth for months, unproductively. Tell you what, Ned....you write 'em up however you want them and I'll follow them to the letter. I'm going to build pan cars, run laps and have fun, but as of this moment, I am $%^@#$@ done with this issue.
Phil the fact here is that some of us see the need for some rules and some do not. I am only trying to act as a collection point to get something in writing for those who are interested in having rules. Seems to me if you comment on your opinion of what the rules should or should not be, you are helping to decide what they will be and are interested in having them...

As I have said before, I am only trying to help keep track of what those commenting seem to agree the rules should be. Believe me if I were writing the rules they would be much different!

Ned
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:13 PM   #3341
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Gary,
I hope you don't mind my editing your rules so that the ones that apply specifically to the class in discussion are clear. If I have moved anything other than general rules that apply to all 1/8 nitro classes they should be moved back, or visa versa.....

They look great to me. I was intimidated into not being as specific as I wanted to in a effort to get something off the ground with some hope of agreement.

The main one I expect to hear about is the clutch rule as I know that some Toledo/MWS racers have used axial clutches...

1/8th 2wd Fuel Onroad Pan Car Rules

Rules Specific to Pan Class:

Body style: Can-Am, Sports/GT, or WSC. ** Local rules can designate alternative body styles and dimensions.

Engine size: .21 ci only. ** Local rules can further restrict engines using port count, price limits, carb restrictors, bearing materials, etc.

Transmission: Single-speed only

Differential: Gear and ball type both permitted

Clutch: Offroad-style clutches only. No axial clutches. Friction surface of all clutch shoes must be parallel to the crank/ground.

Drive: 2WD, rear drive only

Suspension: Wheels may not be independently suspended. Use of springs and liquid filled dampers as suspension components is not permitted.

Weight: 2300 g including transponder and without fuel

Chassis may be constructed from several fixed elements solidly joined except for the natural flexibility of the materials, as long as:
- The movement of the fixed elements are only dampened using friction or elastomeric materials.
- The rear wheels are not articulated relative to the engine and drive train. If articulated to the chassis, the rear wheels, engine, and drive train must all move as a single unit.

** Local rules can permit “vintage” cars with suspension to participate as long as the suspension is “locked” by replacing springs and dampeners with solid turnbuckles.[/QUOTE]

General Rules for 1/8th Fuel Onroad Cars (All Apply to Pan Cars)

Length: Maximum 637 mm
Width: Maximum 267 mm
Height to top of wing: Maximum 190 mm
Wheelbase : Maximum 330 mm, Minimum 270 mm

Wheels:
Diameter: Maximum 54 mm, Minimum 44.45 mm
Width: Front Maximum 37 mm, Rear Maximum 64 mm

Tires:
Tire type: Foam only
Diameter: Front Maximum N/A, Rear Maximum N/A
Width: Front Maximum 37 mm, Rear Maximum 64 mm

Rear Spoiler: Chord Maximum 77 mm, Width Maximum 267 mm
Rear Wing: Chord Maximum 78.75 mm, Width Maximum 267 mm
Side dam: Length Maximum 76.2 mm, Height Maximum 38 mm
Wheel arch cut-outs: Maximum 13 mm over tire diameter

Upper body widths will be checked by placing a caliper or similar tool, legs down, across the top of the body at any point.

Fuel capacity: 125cc
.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:43 AM   #3342
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Tell you what, Ned....you write 'em up however you want them and I'll follow them to the letter.
I will also comply with whatever Ned includes in post #3323.

Let me point out that the guys that have purchased cars, or are considering purchasing (or making their own) cars, should be in favor of clear, concise rules. The goal is to make sure THE CAR YOU ARE RACING OR BUYING WILL NOT BECOME OBSOLETE for a very long time. That's good for the racers and the class in general.
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Last edited by howardcano; 10-30-2013 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:52 AM   #3343
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The rear wheels are not articulated relative to the engine and drive train. If articulated to the chassis, the rear wheels, engine, and drive train must all move as a single unit.
I also believe this concept should be added to post #3323.
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Old 10-30-2013, 07:41 AM   #3344
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Well I checked ROAR rules and there aren't any for pan class 1/8 on road. What took Roy Moody, Gene Hustings. JOHN Thorp and many other fore fathers of this sport that took many years draft are gone. Good Job ROAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:16 AM   #3345
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This forum reminds of a sand box on the play ground. When we aren't working together, it's not such a fun place to be, but when you are, it's a joy! You guys seem to be on a roll, keep it up.
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