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Old 10-28-2013, 12:11 PM   #3286
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Default ROAR Pan Rules

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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
You're killing me, Ned.

The Roar rules apply. Technically, a locked out suspension car would be legal under the rules, and club consensus has been to this point to allow the locked out suspension car but not allow it to compete for points. We can do whatever we like at the club level, but at the series level, the rule book is in full force, IMHO. Any waiving of rules at that point can be handled nicely by either the race director or the series director. The only thing we're going over again is bringing people up to speed who are getting into the hobby, and frankly, it's a little kinder for us to do so rather than just refer them to a rule book. If there is a part of the rules that you don't like, or a new rule you think necessary, we can discuss it in this forum or elsewhere, then submit the change to ROAR for modification. It's like that with engines, currently...it's run what you have, but if our membership decides otherwise (like cost or 3 port) then we submit that and have it promulgated accordingly. And we've discussed THIS issue over and over again as well, and I still don't see a
I recommend to all interested parties; during the off season, take some time to look up the existing rules concerning 2wd nitro in the ROAR rule book. Let's have a deadline of January 1st for consensus, and at that time, we'll put in a request to ROAR to add/delete/modify whatever rules we think need help. And I'll start the ball rolling with my thoughts:

1. Engines. No changes needed.
2. Bodies. Run what you like, but existing rules concerning cut outs and so forth apply.
3. Chassis. My opinion is still that the "suspension plate" on WRC and Moto is illegal, but they are the only real manufacturers at this point, most people are running their products, and the consensus has been that it is not suspension. Since the ROAR rules don't speak about it and because the consensus is clear, we continue as we are.
4. Fuel capacity/weight/foam tires/etc. all apply as written.
5. Vintage vs. classic vs. current. Doesn't really apply. To my knowledge, Tom and I are the only ones running a vintage on any basis. They all passed according to the rules in the past and still pass now, nor do we have such numbers as to support splitting our class. If some guy shows up with a '72 Heathkit, that's just peachy by me, since I doubt that guy will have any advantage.
I don't know what the "vote" was on pan guru, but I suggested Lon Sr. If he'll be so kind as to weigh in on this and give some direction to it, it'd be appreciated....I'd like to hear Rick weigh in as well given his experience with all types of pan over many years. I'm happy to go with whatever the group decides, but my vote is let things be as they are and keep it simple.
Phil,
Sorry to step on your toes! I have only one issue with using the ROAR Pan Rules: There don't exist! At least that I can find. I have read and re-read page 83 of the current ROAR rules and can find only one "rule", weight, that clearly applies to a pan class. Please send me a copy of what you believe the ROAR rules are from the current rule book.

Oh yeah, as far a Lon: Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
You've got everything you need. Take one of those old 2WD cars, replace the shocks with turnbuckles, and you're good to go. Then you can use up that big box of tires you've got stashed!

If you want to race with the pan cars, bring a pan car! Great way to use up old rears but you'll need harder fronts.


Good luck,
Ned

Last edited by aarcobra; 10-28-2013 at 12:13 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #3287
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Believe it's page 85, though many parts of the book apply hither and yon. Specifically, it addresses weight, engine size, tire type, length, width, height, rear wing, wheelbase, and so forth. Where there is a specific mention of pan is where there is a stat that applies only for pan, i.e. weight. The rule book is a large pain, and it appears mostly devoted to 1/10 scale electric (pages and pages and pages) so apparently we're just not as nit picky as everyone else. If you think we require a specific page isolated from everything else, and the consensus agrees, we can do this, but I don't think it's necessary. Pan obviously means no suspension. Front 2wd is covered in another chapter and those must be run with 4wd. Certain body cutouts are mentioned on page 85 and in other places, etc. The only part of the rules that I could see anyone having seeing ambiguity in is transmission, but we're understood that we are single speed only, the kits come as a single speed, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.

Hey, you're not stepping on toes, you're DISCUSSING things, and it's good that we do this, even if it does get a little repetitious at times (and I know for a fact the older I get, the more repetitious I get, much to daughters dismay). You should continue to do so, you may find an issue the rest of us miss.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #3288
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea either. But if it means another racer participating, it's okay by me.

Then leave it to the club/track/race director's discretion. Sure allow it to race to "fill the field" but if it becomes an issue it's easy to say "no".
Certainly my choice of the word "legal" was unfortunate.

Here are some features of a a new "pan" car from a European manufacturer: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as their suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. It is legal.

Not really the case, at either end of the car. First of all most of the current cars are "purpose built" and use very few of the parts from suspension cars. In fact, not all manufacturers of pans even make suspension cars. Motonica uses parts from a 4wd pan car in some versions of their 2wd but had to beef up the front end and I believe the parts are now different. I have examined four or five different models of the modern "Classic" pan cars and they are nothing like a locked out suspension car in execution.

The difference is in the attachment of the axles to the pan. In the rear, none of the cars I am aware of have any flex, movement, between the center of the axle and the ends where the wheels mount. Everything is very solid. Of course adjustments can be made but, when running on the track the new cars are very similar to the vintage pans. In the front, things get a little tricky. (I will say that I am not convinced the front end is the best solution for a true "pan" car, but the cat's out of the bag and I believe it's too late to go back to a vintage type pan car front and outlaw nearly all of the modern "Classic" chassis in the field or on the market.)

If you look at an RC 300 with the plastic front end pieces, since they are attached to the main chassis pan, they in effect are "independently suspended". I believe the stiffness of the .125" G-10 chassis pan minimizes this to a negligible amount.
Now mill the area between the parts to .062" and the flex increases. Could this have been a design feature of why Associated went to the separate pieces in place of a beam axle?

The articulated movement about the centerline of the Classic Pan car's front axle is not generally "independent" in most designs since the left and right front wheels are attached with a beam., when one side moves so does the other. The DFX has an Associated style front end where the stiffness of the mounting plate can allow independent movement each front wheel. Again, since the DFX is a production car and legal where there are pan car rules, I don't see how a few US racers can outlaw it's design which must be legal under the rules where the class was developed and raced. (Some talk of allowing this and that to gain a racer or two, what would be the effect of not allowing factory built cars because we don't agree with the rules the are built to meet?).

(I won't comment on the new WRC EVO as I have not seen the car in person and cannot determine the details of it's design. I have seen posts on European a Forum that indicates that there is concern about some aspect of the design meeting the rules. I am confident that things will be worked out, 'cause it'll cost me if they aren't!! )


Here are some features of a locked-suspension car: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as the suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. But it's not legal?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why a locked car should not be allowed.

It all comes down to flex across the axles. A "pan" car can have unlimited flex OF THE CHASSIS PAN (until it hits the ground) when loaded between the axles, but essentially "ZERO" when loaded on the chassis centerline and axle centerline.

Although I was not actively involved with 1/8 on-road at the time suspension cars with locked shocks were used, here are two comments from this thread on the subject:

P2gee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dasmopar

Chassis : Any 1/8 scale pan chassis with no shocks nitro powered car.

I think you need to be very very clear what a "pan chassis" is and what "shocks" are in the rules. These two items where part of the demise of the last pan classes run in this country.


Rick Davis
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylorm
......I say a "shock" can be used if it's used 1/12th style .............ie. controlling the spring in a chassis /tbar..but no shocks used in conjunction with an arm moving on a pivot pin.............
Think you guys may have missed the point here - if memory serves correctly P2Gee may be referencing the era when guys were locking up the shocks on suspension cars and calling them pan cars - need to prevent that.


I defer to these and other such comments.


Please don't read anything into this that isn't intended; I'm not trying to provoke anyone. The reason I ask is because there may be a very valid reason why the locked car should not be allowed, and at the moment I'm unaware of it.
Not provoked or upset! Just trying to express my opinions in a factual and logical way the best I can. In the end, I'll find a place to play RC Cars, one way or another. I have since 1970 and don't expect to change now!

Ned
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:48 PM   #3289
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Default ROAR RULES

[QUOTE=hitcharide1;12673417]Believe it's page 85, though many parts of the book apply hither and yon. QUOTE]

Phil,
Not sure what version of the ROAR Rules you are looking at. The current version is on the ROAR Site:

http://www.roarracing.com/?page_id=10

Click on "Rules" and a pdf will load. Look all you can, all I can see is on page 83.

As to some of your other points, rules, if they exist, need to be complete and understandable, among other things! Assuming or taking for granted is not the best way to go about it.

FYI: Here are the rules Lon II set up when he was interested in this class a couple of years ago. There was considerable agreement that they were a good starting point. Of course, I think there are some things that need to be added! (Remember I was "Mentored" by Roy Moody and he did things RIGHT!

Ned

Chassis : Any 1/8 scale pan chassis with no shocks nitro powered car.
No suspension cars with locked out shocks af any type. All suspension arms muct be fixed to the chassis with no axis of movement.

Straight axle cars from past run whatever motor and which ever body.

Modern pan cars with adjustable camber and toe run GT bodies.

Wings and spoilers can be used if they are the original with the body and cut on the factory lines. Rear of the bodies should maintain tail lamps and can not be completely cut out.


Tires : Any commercially available foam based tires allowed.
All tires must fit under the body. (No addition of wheel flares)

No electronics may be added to aid in vehicle stability. (Matt Taylor rule)

Any .21 3 port non-turbo engine.

Regular price suggested to be under $250 not including tax. (Use Tower Hobbies, Stormer Hobbies, Horizon Hobbies or any other large retail store as price reference.) Engines bought on clearance price or sales should not be used if normaly priced over $250.00
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #3290
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Default Pan Car

Well I guess that leaves me out since just bought 3 port turbo motor for $158.00 Oh well I guess I beat parking lots save 350.00 ea month to race in series any one need WRC cheap.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #3291
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We run turbo motors don't listen to him. You are good to go.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:27 PM   #3292
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We run turbo motors don't listen to him. You are good to go.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Jason! I like you too!
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:30 PM   #3293
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:57 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by gary47 View Post
Well I guess that leaves me out since just bought 3 port turbo motor for $158.00 Oh well I guess I beat parking lots save 350.00 ea month to race in series any one need WRC cheap.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary,
As I have said to Jason, my posting of the Lon II rules was not intended to indicate that they were in place or even workable. I was trying to indicate were we had come from.

So here's my best guess of what the rules used in the Classic Pan Class as run in Toledo and the MWS would look like if written out:

1) Any 2wd chassis that has no obvious form of independent suspension Rear wheel drive only (Locked Suspension cars allowed but not recommended)

2) No variable or multi speed transmissions

3) 5 or less port engines (More ports allowed but not recommended)

4) Any approved body

5) Minimum weight 2300 grams (with transponder, no fuel)

6) All other applicable ROAR rules apply

7) No liquid-filled dampers (shock absorbers) allowed. (added 10-29-13)



Let me know of any additions or changes I'll get something done!!
Lets get something settled on this and move on to other things!!

Ned

Last edited by aarcobra; 10-29-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:08 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary,
As I have said to Jason, my posting of the Lon II rules was not intended to indicate that they were in place or even workable. I was trying to indicate were we had come from.

So here's my best guess of what the rules used in the Classic Pan Class as run in Toledo and the MWS would look like if written out:

1) Any 2wd chassis that has no obvious form of independent suspension Rear wheel drive only (Locked Suspension cars allowed but not recommended)

2) No variable or multi speed transmissions

3) 5 or less port engines (More ports allowed but not recommended)

4) Any approved body

5) Minimum weight 2300 grams (with transponder, no fuel)

6) All other applicable ROAR rules apply

Let me know of any additions or changes I'll get something done!!
Lets get something settled on this and move on to other things!!

Ned
Ned that sounds ok I was teasing you about beat parking lots. I no ROAR rules back day had all this covered for pan cars, but the roar decided to remove them from there current rules, maybe they didn't think pan cars in 1/8 scale wouldn't come back. Surprise where back!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:36 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by gary47 View Post
Well I guess that leaves me out since just bought 3 port turbo motor for $158.00 Oh well I guess I beat parking lots save 350.00 ea month to race in series any one need WRC cheap.
turbo motors are fine with me......rock on......
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:38 PM   #3297
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary,
As I have said to Jason, my posting of the Lon II rules was not intended to indicate that they were in place or even workable. I was trying to indicate were we had come from.

So here's my best guess of what the rules used in the Classic Pan Class as run in Toledo and the MWS would look like if written out:

1) Any 2wd chassis that has no obvious form of independent suspension Rear wheel drive only (Locked Suspension cars allowed but not recommended)

2) No variable or multi speed transmissions

3) 5 or less port engines (More ports allowed but not recommended)

4) Any approved body

5) Minimum weight 2300 grams (with transponder, no fuel)

6) All other applicable ROAR rules apply

Let me know of any additions or changes I'll get something done!!
Lets get something settled on this and move on to other things!!

Ned
..I like it.... and 7) encourage real car bodies if you have them...Wanna see that F1 run next year Ned...
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:44 PM   #3298
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Ned that sounds ok I was teasing you about beat parking lots. I no ROAR rules back day had all this covered for pan cars, but the roar decided to remove them from there current rules, maybe they didn't think pan cars in 1/8 scale wouldn't come back. Surprise where back!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the clarification! Teasing is ok. I tend to take things too personally and figure I cost the pan class a racer!!

I have lot's of personal baggage from the past in RC. I was very active in the Toledo club, the MWS, and ROAR and saw how things were done "back in the day". Classes stared with ideas and rules and then racing. We spent a lot of time working out things and getting rules setup and voted on for stuff like this. Now, who knows!! No one seems to care about anything except running on the track. Shoot, the Toledo club doesn't do a news letter, keep points, or have awards or a banquet or any of the "Club Type" stuff from the "good old days". I don't get it....

When it comes to bodies, don't give up on running something different, if you're serious on that one! We can set a race date for Toledo to run Something else, probably GT, and do it. I'm pretty sure there is interest if there is opportunity! Open-wheel, only hitcharide and me probably!
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:04 PM   #3299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary,
As I have said to Jason, my posting of the Lon II rules was not intended to indicate that they were in place or even workable. I was trying to indicate were we had come from.

So here's my best guess of what the rules used in the Classic Pan Class as run in Toledo and the MWS would look like if written out:

1) Any 2wd chassis that has no obvious form of independent suspension Rear wheel drive only (Locked Suspension cars allowed but not recommended)

2) No variable or multi speed transmissions

3) 5 or less port engines (More ports allowed but not recommended)

4) Any approved body

5) Minimum weight 2300 grams (with transponder, no fuel)

6) All other applicable ROAR rules apply

Let me know of any additions or changes I'll get something done!!
Lets get something settled on this and move on to other things!!

Ned
Most of what you've denoted is already in the book, the exception being #3. I'm satisfied with how things are but don't really care one way or the other as per the motor, so whatever everyone else wants, I'm good with. Were I the tiebreaker, however, I'd still say "run what ya brung."
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:05 PM   #3300
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Thanks for the clarification! Teasing is ok. I tend to take things too personally and figure I cost the pan class a racer!!

I have lot's of personal baggage from the past in RC. I was very active in the Toledo club, the MWS, and ROAR and saw how things were done "back in the day". Classes stared with ideas and rules and then racing. We spent a lot of time working out things and getting rules setup and voted on for stuff like this. Now, who knows!! No one seems to care about anything except running on the track. Shoot, the Toledo club doesn't do a news letter, keep points, or have awards or a banquet or any of the "Club Type" stuff from the "good old days". I don't get it....

When it comes to bodies, don't give up on running something different, if you're serious on that one! We can set a race date for Toledo to run Something else, probably GT, and do it. I'm pretty sure there is interest if there is opportunity! Open-wheel, only hitcharide and me probably!
hears an idea, how bout once a month we run "vintage" style bods at our club races. would look great on the web site
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