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Old 09-29-2013, 07:11 PM   #3181
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perhaps someone like Rick Davis who doesn't have a vested interest in the result
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:54 PM   #3182
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Originally Posted by ElliotCanada View Post
I had two WRC Due Evos on order and canceled them last night because it seems that this discussion about rules has been going on for about three years. I will wait until stable rules are put in place. Is there any reason not to adopt the European Rules where Pan is an official class?
+1 this class has grown in Europe and most sanction rules are adopted its a good starting point having some rules in place than none at all including grandfather in rules look forward to seeing this class grow
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:09 PM   #3183
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After finally getting out an enjoying running 1/8th Gas On-Road again after 1 1/2 years AND have a blast, I read this and tend to get P.O.ed!!

Please hold off making judgments about the class until you have seen it being run, seen the cars up close and especially seen the new cars and how they work.

I am sure that the new WRC will have a proper pancar front end as defined by the European rules and the intent of the class. Just because you see what appears to be inner pivots in the upper arms doesn't necessarily mean that there is "suspension" being used. I am assuming (until I get mine!) that the lower arm provides the required stiffness. I'll apologize when I'm proven to be mistaken!

Howard, to try to address your specific points:

Let me modify my previous suggestions for suspension rules so that (as I understand it, at least) all of the cars now running will conform:

Fiberglass flexure is the only allowed springing means, other than the tires themselves. No metallic or elastomeric springs allowed.

Some of the existing cars do not have "Fiberglass chassis". Aluminum, carbon fiber, G-10 and a European fiberglass similar to G-10 but with a different designation. Because of this, IF all of this needs to be stated, it would need to allow for different materials... Also, on some of the cars there are rubber disks that are placed between the front axle and the pan. At first I thought these were "suspension" but I believe they actually act as a means to allow the front axle to pivot along the centerline of the chassis as on some cars they have been replaced by "pivot balls" so there is no flex or suspension only a rocking motion. On some cars this seems to be used as a tweek adjustment...

Spring damping must be via friction dampers only. Viscous dampers and elastomeric dampers are not allowed. Friction dampers must be run dry, with no liquid lubrication. (This eliminates the expense and maintenance of shocks.)

None of the existing cars have any type of dampeners that I am aware of. Some have stiffing bars parallel to the centerline of the chassis which can be attached in different points along their length to alter the flex. Others use the radio tray to accomplish this tuning. I know a very old Kyosho car used twin shocks from the front axle to the radio tray, so that should be eliminated before it starts. Hate to have to inspect stuff so close as to look for silicone oil between two plates...lol

The engine must maintain a fixed relationship to the rear wheels whenever the car is in motion. (This permits T-plate cars, or cars with other floating rear pods, as long as the engine and transmission is part of the pod.)

I think this is the secret to the whole deal. Unfortunately I think you need to define "fixed". "When a force of "X" pounds is placed within "Y" inches of each axle centerline, the chassis ride height may not decrease more than "z" inches." Unfortunately the tires may have to be removed so that you eliminate their deflection. I really think this is unnecessary for any "factory" built cars, but they should be used to determine the numbers. I think it is the only way to be sure modified or scratch built cars are actually not getting enough flex in their wheel locating parts to make a difference. I may certainly be mistaken but a suspension car chassis with "solid" bars in the place of shocks, may have flex in the arms...

I too would like to see a limitation on engine power. Personally, I have not had enough experience with intake restrictors in different engine port configurations to be certain that it would be a effective equalizer. But I know they worked great in Veco-McCoys and K&B 3.5's lol

(Howard-I haven't been commenting on the board much because of health issues and a blown engine in one of our 1:1 cars I replacing. I did sneak up from SC to Dayton for the last Midwest Series race and ran my DFX Vortex Pan or the "French Fry Car" as some call it. I had a blast...until the main ;-( )

These rules also allow someone to convert a suspension car to compete in the pan class
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:38 PM   #3184
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I have opinions on rules as do you all, but frankly I can't think of anything less important right now to growing this class than worrying about rules. Here's the reality as I see it. If folks want to join this class, they need to buy a pan car to race in it. Forget the small sliver of potential racers who have both the inclination and ability to build their own. Also forget a small group of older racers interested in resurrecting old US built pan cars from prior decades...that's fine for some folks to enjoy at a club level, but you're not going to build a new national class around refurbing old cars.

That leaves new cars that you can buy at a hobby shop. And the reality is that means this class will be made up of the new European classic pan cars. So let's stop wasting time moaning about how the Europeans are building them, and lets get busy promoting them. So far all I can see you've accomplished with all this FUD is to take two individual posters on here who wanted to buy new cars and start racing, and manage to convince them to not since there are no rules. Just incredible!

Here's my own personal plan to help grow this class. I've owned my car for all of about 6 weeks now. I've gone to Port Jervis 4 weeks now, I practice with it, I hand my radio to anyone who has an even casual interest in driving it, and I wax poetic about all the reasons that this should be the biggest onroad class, and definately the class most people who are new to onroad should begin with. By next spring, I am very comfortable that at Pt Jervis next spring we will have a core group of folks running these cars and having fun. We won't give a shit about national rules, the same way no one cares about rules at a local level in any class - onroad, offroad, outdoor, indoor. All the cars will have 125cc fuel tanks, one speeds, buggy clutches and current 1/8th scale bodies. The smart guys driving them will put mild motors in them - who cares how many ports they have. No one is going to want to tech them, or claim them, or do anything else with them from a rules perspective. Limited traction and no suspension will take of that issue. The best drivers will win, as they have since the first RC car race was staged.

The GT racers in the US, who outnumber 2wd pan car racers a hundred to one, haven't been able to move ROAR to create a national set of GT rules in over two years of trying. And in spite of this, GT races are run at big onroad events, there are large GT only races run around the country, and GT is run at a club level at many tracks.

The problem with this class isn't a lack rules...it is a lack of racers, and a lack of cars. Duh.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:50 PM   #3185
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
Perhaps you had to be there, the track was less then ideal (sort of a car eater) with too much VHT laid down (can you say traction roll?), It was their first MWS Race (or Gas for that matter), and it rained. Yet the pan cars had large amounts of fun. Dayton did good and I think most everyone enjoyed themselves.
Hope the New York boys got their event in!

LETS RACE ONCE MORE!!!
Glad to hear you had fun Lon - although that doesn't surprise me. We had agreement from the organizers to run a 1/8th pan car class at this weekend's ROAR Div 1 Regional if we had 3 entries or more. Amazingly, they didn't ask us to submit rules for the class before they put us on the schedule. Unfortuantely, one of our number got sick and couldn't attend, so we got scratched. I was disappointed, since we had gorgeous weather all weekend, but I wasn't as disappointed as I was in reading this thread tonite.
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Old 09-29-2013, 09:22 PM   #3186
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I have opinions on rules as do you all, but frankly I can't think of anything less important right now to growing this class than worrying about rules. Here's the reality as I see it. If folks want to join this class, they need to buy a pan car to race in it. Forget the small sliver of potential racers who have both the inclination and ability to build their own. Also forget a small group of older racers interested in resurrecting old US built pan cars from prior decades...that's fine for some folks to enjoy at a club level, but you're not going to build a new national class around refurbing old cars.
I went to the Midwest Series race in Dayton this weekend while you were in PJ. We had 8 entries in pan. Representing Motonica P8C and P8C Extreme 2. WRC, DFX, a scratch built shaft drive car, and a converted suspension car. In Toledo there are well over a dozen 1/8 pan cars and four or five built by "the guys you say to forget about", including Rick Davis.

That leaves new cars (name two) that you can buy at a hobby shop. And the reality is that means this class will be made up of the new European classic pan cars. (So what is wrong with knowing what the rules are?) So let's stop wasting time moaning about how the Europeans are building them, and lets get busy promoting them. (Look no further than The One-Eight Racers OF Toledo, Ohio) So far all I can see you've accomplished with all this FUD is to take two individual posters on here who wanted to buy new cars and start racing, and manage to convince them to not since there are no rules. Just incredible!

Here's my own personal plan to help grow this class. I've owned my car for all of about 6 weeks now. I've gone to Port Jervis 4 weeks now, I practice with it, I hand my radio to anyone who has an even casual interest in driving it, and I wax poetic about all the reasons that this should be the biggest onroad class, and definately the class most people who are new to onroad should begin with. By next spring, I am very comfortable that at Pt Jervis next spring we will have a core group of folks running these cars and having fun. We won't give a shit about national rules, the same way no one cares about rules at a local level in any class - onroad, offroad, outdoor, indoor. All the cars will have 125cc fuel tanks, one speeds, buggy clutches and current 1/8th scale bodies. The smart guys driving them will put mild motors in them - who cares how many ports they have. No one is going to want to tech them, or claim them, or do anything else with them from a rules perspective. Limited traction and no suspension will take of that issue. The best drivers will win, as they have since the first RC car race was staged.

I can agree with that! Seems like it has been since 1970 when I started racing! I do think you are missing a lot of good points with your attitude tho...

The GT racers in the US, who outnumber 2wd pan car racers a hundred to one, (Eight pan car in Dayton, 3 GT's and only one or two on the track most races.) haven't been able to move ROAR to create a national set of GT rules in over two years of trying. And in spite of this, GT races are run at big onroad events, there are large GT only races run around the country, and GT is run at a club level at many tracks

.(And you can look in various places (like the Midwest Series Site: http://www.midwestseries.com/about/rules.htm ) and find the rules applicable to that class...

The problem with this class isn't a lack rules...it is a lack of racers, and a lack of cars. Duh.
Different strokes for different folks...
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:08 PM   #3187
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While I agree that we don't want to discourage racers from buying cars, it was the LACK of rules that causes that situation. No one wants to buy a car and find out that it won't be allowed for some reason. Make some rules and allow everything that is currently in the pipeline and running on the track (that isn't 4wd or suspended). That should solve those issues and also notify future builds or builders or companies what they can/ cannot do. Almost every company would prefer rules because then they know the parameters and don't have to guess whether their product is "legal" or not
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:09 PM   #3188
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
I have opinions on rules as do you all, but frankly I can't think of anything less important right now to growing this class than worrying about rules. Here's the reality as I see it. If folks want to join this class, they need to buy a pan car to race in it. Forget the small sliver of potential racers who have both the inclination and ability to build their own. Also forget a small group of older racers interested in resurrecting old US built pan cars from prior decades...that's fine for some folks to enjoy at a club level, but you're not going to build a new national class around refurbing old cars.
I went to the Midwest Series race in Dayton this weekend while you were in PJ. We had 8 entries in pan. Representing Motonica P8C and P8C Extreme 2. WRC, DFX, a scratch built shaft drive car, and a converted suspension car. In Toledo there are well over a dozen 1/8 pan cars and four or five built by "the guys you say to forget about", including Rick Davis.

That leaves new cars (name two) that you can buy at a hobby shop. And the reality is that means this class will be made up of the new European classic pan cars. (So what is wrong with knowing what the rules are?) So let's stop wasting time moaning about how the Europeans are building them, and lets get busy promoting them. (Look no further than The One-Eight Racers OF Toledo, Ohio) So far all I can see you've accomplished with all this FUD is to take two individual posters on here who wanted to buy new cars and start racing, and manage to convince them to not since there are no rules. Just incredible!

Here's my own personal plan to help grow this class. I've owned my car for all of about 6 weeks now. I've gone to Port Jervis 4 weeks now, I practice with it, I hand my radio to anyone who has an even casual interest in driving it, and I wax poetic about all the reasons that this should be the biggest onroad class, and definately the class most people who are new to onroad should begin with. By next spring, I am very comfortable that at Pt Jervis next spring we will have a core group of folks running these cars and having fun. We won't give a shit about national rules, the same way no one cares about rules at a local level in any class - onroad, offroad, outdoor, indoor. All the cars will have 125cc fuel tanks, one speeds, buggy clutches and current 1/8th scale bodies. The smart guys driving them will put mild motors in them - who cares how many ports they have. No one is going to want to tech them, or claim them, or do anything else with them from a rules perspective. Limited traction and no suspension will take of that issue. The best drivers will win, as they have since the first RC car race was staged.

I can agree with that! Seems like it has been since 1970 when I started racing! I do think you are missing a lot of good points with your attitude tho...

The GT racers in the US, who outnumber 2wd pan car racers a hundred to one, (Eight pan car in Dayton, 3 GT's and only one or two on the track most races.) haven't been able to move ROAR to create a national set of GT rules in over two years of trying. And in spite of this, GT races are run at big onroad events, there are large GT only races run around the country, and GT is run at a club level at many tracks

.(And you can look in various places (like the Midwest Series Site: http://www.midwestseries.com/about/rules.htm ) and find the rules applicable to that class...

The problem with this class isn't a lack rules...it is a lack of racers, and a lack of cars. Duh.
I didn't say forget about folks who want to either scratch build or refurb old cars - they should definately race their cars within this class! But if the notion is that they are where the growth will come from, you are kidding yourself. If you took the Motonicas, WRCs, and DXFs out of the midwest there wouldn't be much of a pan car class there either. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE scratch building cars. My current GT car is a Hot Bodies with my own CNC'ed chassis, shock towers, arms, steering plate, bumpers, etc. My WRC has my own 2mm 7075 CNC'ed chassis. I got started as a slot racer back in the 60s when everyone built their own brass and piano wire chassis (yeah, I'm an old guy too...)

The lack of GT cars in the midwest is an anomoly that I have known about for a while and have no explanation for. In the NE, Florida, Texas, Colorado, Utah, NW and other areas there are strong contingents of GT racing for years. At PJ this past weekend there were two full heats of GTs - and that was down from other NE races earlier this year. If there were as many pan car entries as there are GT entries nationwide we'd be doing great. I am aware of the MWS GT rules. My point is that there is no single NATIONAL set of pan car rules, and no ROAR GT rules, and they have still managed to grow their class anyway.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules. I'm saying that this thread is starting to give potential new racers a reason to not join the class, because this thread is giving them the impression that the lack of rules is a problem right now. And that's not my opinion - that's the opinion of two guys who were going to buy cars, and now aren't because of the discussion about the lack of rules . The only problem the class has right now is it needs more cars, and more racers to drive them...
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:13 PM   #3189
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1....any .21 engine up to five ports?.....turbo and non turbo engines allowed
2....no suspension "arms" attached with pivot pins...ie...no locking out a 4WD chassis...some fear the plastic arms could flex like suspension...I think that could just give you uncontrollable rebound...not good...
3....front beam front ends (solid) on a center pin or spherical allowed.....
4....T bar car like my Davis L car allowed...T bar is only flexure with NO shock
5....no gyro steer /assist of course....
6....weight limit??...dunno...guys what do the modern pans weigh?
7....bodies?...also dunno...I have no problem with the modern bodies...but the 911 is getting mounted....
8... No whining......
9....Laughing encouraged...
10...4WD guys must not toss tires...stack neatly for us vultures to pick thru....
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:33 AM   #3190
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Originally Posted by ScottE1776 View Post
perhaps someone like Rick Davis who doesn't have a vested interest in the result
That would be great. I also think aarcobra (Ned) would be great as the Pan Car Poobah!

I'll volunteer to be the scribe to record anything that the Poobah decides.

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Oh Crap...
Ned, I hope you are feeling better!

I'm sorry if my innocent questions have caused any consternation to you or anyone else. That wasn't my intent.

Thanks for your observations on my questions. It sounds like we both would like to keep things simple?

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8... No whining......
9....Laughing encouraged...
10...4WD guys must not toss tires...stack neatly for us vultures to pick thru....
These rules definitely need to be ratified!
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:54 AM   #3191
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perhaps someone like Rick Davis who doesn't have a vested interest in the result
The last time Rick ran a 2wd car (3 weeks ago), it was a locked suspension car powered by a Flash motor. It was fast and looked it. I watched this car being driven by one of the best, very fun to watch. However there was a less hairy looking 3 port locked on to his tail like a grayhound chasing the rabbit it will never catch. It was the sort of thing that happens here in Toledo and it too was some real fun and good testing.
Rick has allot going on other then 2wd but his input is priceless. He's my man!

AARCOBRA is right there too (not as fast as Rick), but knows his stuff.

Last edited by Das 1/8th Mopar; 09-30-2013 at 07:58 AM. Reason: forgot something
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:22 AM   #3192
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While I agree that we don't want to discourage racers from buying cars, it was the LACK of rules that causes that situation. No one wants to buy a car and find out that it won't be allowed for some reason. Make some rules and allow everything that is currently in the pipeline and running on the track (that isn't 4wd or suspended). That should solve those issues and also notify future builds or builders or companies what they can/ cannot do. Almost every company would prefer rules because then they know the parameters and don't have to guess whether their product is "legal" or not
Scott, I totally agree, rules are needed! There are in existence many sets of rules and I will post what I have later today (I have some pressing 1:1 scale stuff to do!!!) Unfortunately the rules I have come across are very minimal and will not satisfy some but things need to be written down. When questions come up they need to be answered!!

Don't be afraid to get the EVO! It has to conform to the European rules or it would not be allowed to race and then why would they build it at all!! Mine is on order and I hope I get it in time to try it out in two weeks at the SnowBall Rally in Cinci!!! Probably not........

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Old 09-30-2013, 10:04 AM   #3193
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So if I buy a WRC EVO with a $205 Nova Rossi 5 Port Turbo from Jason I will be legal for Toledo, the MidWest Series and the Great Lakes Challenge? The only mod I may have to add would be a Carb Restrictor?
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:43 AM   #3194
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So if I buy a WRC EVO with a $205 Nova Rossi 5 Port Turbo from Jason I will be legal for Toledo, the MidWest Series and the Great Lakes Challenge? The only mod I may have to add would be a Carb Restrictor?
Although am only a "member" of the One-Eight Racers and in NO official capacity, I can see no possibility that the EVO would be not allowed in any of those races. I contend it will be found to be in complete compliance with the rules of as we currently know them.

In fact, IF you are told that the car is not allowed to run in the pan class at the club races, Midwest series races, or the GLC, I will buy it from you!! Chassis and engine, no radio, minus something for damage/wear, plus something for spare parts you may have!!

BUY IT! Join in the FUN!!!

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Old 09-30-2013, 01:05 PM   #3195
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So if I buy a WRC EVO with a $205 Nova Rossi 5 Port Turbo from Jason I will be legal for Toledo, the MidWest Series and the Great Lakes Challenge? The only mod I may have to add would be a Carb Restrictor?
.... Most of the cars here in Toledo are either the Motonica or WRC... Yes
the car is legal... I ran 4wd at GLC... As far as I know no carb
Restrictors were used at GLC....?????
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