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Old 07-13-2013, 09:11 PM   #2926
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I expect a disc brake will be much more consistent, and more powerful.
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:13 PM   #2927
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Default Diff Price and Availibility

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Most of the expensive NOS gear diffs I have seen are the British made AMPS gear diff conversion set for the RC300. AMPS made the 4wd Rapier chassis with the inline motor configuration, and supposedly made the best gear diff for the RC300.

Many vintage SG chassis have a similarly designed gear diff. You could likely buy a complete SG car for 300.
We need to have a diff that is Available, Cheap ($50), and one that you can get parts for. Buying stuff off eBay is not the way to go imo. Get a vintage SG diff for $300 and throw the rest of the car away and hope nothing breaks!

Even a diff from Moto or WRC is too expensive and won't "drop in".

Since I started racing in 1970, I was in on every and all diffs, from the Jacobs, to the AMPS, Thorpe and then the Associated and MRP Ball diffs. A simple ball diff on an 8mm axle with an adapter for "modern" wheels is all we need. Who can make them for us? I bet HobbyKing could sell 'em for $29.95!

I paid more for my first Associated 300 Diff (Custom made Jacobs) than I paid for the rest of the kit!!!

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Old 07-13-2013, 09:25 PM   #2928
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I expect a disc brake will be much more consistent, and more powerful.
You are correct, that is why it took over! Problem is the disk has to be driven from the gear or the housing of a gear diff. This requires parts and cost. Same with a diff, cost and complexity. If every one has the same brakes and rear axle, what is the diff?!?

One thing is that if you do away with the diff, the disk brake is easier to do.

Remember my idea is a cheap, no frills, entry level car to see if such a car could attract more people to 1/8 on-road! I'm talking about a $300 MAX Chassis cost, parts availability, and Spec rules...

I think of it as a step below/before the Classic Pans. If the Classic Pan catches on, I doubt there would be enough interest to warrant a project such as this.

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Old 07-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #2929
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Default ???

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One of the broken cars was a aarcobra hand-me-down, that being said, in between brakes, I drove it, It was sweet! Then it blew up again.
I really wish you guys the best of luck on your different projects! However having spent the bucks for the new stuff, I am glad I did.

LETS RACE SOME MORE !!
What is your point? I sold the car to a very experienced racer, in APRIL. Do you think it had a warranty?

Maybe your beloved Motonica had more problems than a weak front end and a belt that pops of sometimes for no good reason! Didn't you say you liked the WRC clutch better? Does it look stronger?

Good luck tomorrow!

Have fun! Wish I could be there....
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Old 07-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #2930
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I was just sharing the info I have on the parts you guys were discussing. I am not advocating an Ebay shopping spree or any plan for these projects. The SG car is very good and my thought was building one, not throwing it away I do have a few SG Futura chassis, which are very similar to modern pan cars but with the AMPS/THORP style gear diff. rear axle. I would like to eventually restore one and take it to the track for some laps.
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Last edited by MrHistory; 07-14-2013 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:32 PM   #2931
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I was just sharing the info I have on the parts you guys were discussing. I am not advocating an Ebay shopping spree or any plan for these projects. The SG car is very good and my thought was building one, not throwing it away I do have a few SG Futura chassis, which are very similar to modern pan cars but with the AMPS/THORP style gear diff. rear axle. I think it won the last pan era 1/8 Ifmar Worlds. I would like to eventually restore one and take it to the track for some laps.
Incorrect - Art Carbonnel drove the last pan car to win a worlds , a Delta car in 1981.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:49 PM   #2932
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Thanks for the clarification Rick. I knew someone would jump in if I was wrong. I recall the SG Indy VCS being a champion car, maybe Im thinking of the PB9...I know Paolo ran the SG VCS chassis. I recall it being one of his first cars.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:55 PM   #2933
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Incorrect - Art Carbonnel drove the last pan car to win a worlds , a Delta car in 1981.
In Indy! I was there! (frequency control...)

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-arturo_carbonnel_1981wc.jpg

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Old 07-14-2013, 08:14 PM   #2934
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In Indy! I was there! (frequency control...)

Attachment 1089604
What car were you running?
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:01 AM   #2935
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Hopefully in the future I will be able to test my Prototype and see what works and what doesn't. The main roadblock I have now is spur gears and a ball diff axle. What do you think of running a clutch brake and a straight axle?!?!
I apologize for this delayed response.

The 32 pitch gears now available (Kimbrough, etc.) have a 3/8" bore, so they can be used on any axle up to and including 3/8" diameter by using appropriate bearings or bushings, or none at all. Most contain at least 12 balls, so they should easily handle the torque demands. Ground rods/drill blanks for the axle are easily obtained. But someone would still need to create the necessary hubs/etc., which is quite a bit of machine work. I no longer own a lathe, or I'd be tempted to try it myself.

By "straight" axle, I'm assuming you mean "locked". For me, a locked axle and clutch brake would take the fun out of the class, for the following reasons: The locked axle makes the car more difficult to drive, and the clutch brake will likely be inconsistent due to the high temperatures it sees. But I'd be willing to put up with the clutch brake if the cost savings made the class more popular.

Performance-wise, it makes more sense to put a disk brake on a jackshaft, away from the clutch heat and any oil coming from the front motor bearing. The jackshaft makes using a ball diff much easier, too.

I don't think this stuff is for the average racer, only for tinkerers.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:05 AM   #2936
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What car were you running?
I guess I slipped it in on ya....I was working, frequency control.

I was never at that level. My best in the Nationals were top tens in the "Amateur" class when it was still run. A 3rd in open and 6th in SS after qualifying 10th in both! In Columbus. I also got something at Ratteys in the pan class when the suspension cars first raced. Don't remember what that was tho....
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:38 AM   #2937
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I apologize for this delayed response.

The 32 pitch gears now available (Kimbrough, etc.) have a 3/8" bore, so they can be used on any axle up to and including 3/8" diameter by using appropriate bearings or bushings, or none at all. Most contain at least 12 balls, so they should easily handle the torque demands. Ground rods/drill blanks for the axle are easily obtained. But someone would still need to create the necessary hubs/etc., which is quite a bit of machine work. I no longer own a lathe, or I'd be tempted to try it myself.

I think 32 might work but from my experience drill rod is not tough enough for axles without hardening, maybe in 3/8"... Also you have to thread it for the nut/screw used to adjust the tension on the balls and I can't figure out how to attach the inner diff plate to the axle without a bunch of work. If you look at Associated and MRP, it looks like they are just pressed on and never come loose...

By "straight" axle, I'm assuming you mean "locked". For me, a locked axle and clutch brake would take the fun out of the class, for the following reasons: The locked axle makes the car more difficult to drive, and the clutch brake will likely be inconsistent due to the high temperatures it sees. But I'd be willing to put up with the clutch brake if the cost savings made the class more popular.

Right, if it proves to be enough cheaper! My thinking is: we did it before, why not at least try it again?

Performance-wise, it makes more sense to put a disk brake on a jackshaft, away from the clutch heat and any oil coming from the front motor bearing. The jackshaft makes using a ball diff much easier, too.

Here's where I screwed up again. I think this discussion needs to be in the "no Frills" thread not this one for "European 2wd..." Although I am interested in both, I am trying to answer the question whether an 1/8th scale gas car would be of interest if it was available/sturdy/cheap/ and fun to race. You and I have seen this class continue to shrink in participation for a decode or more and I believe although there are many reasons, cost and the ungodly complexity and speed of the cars are at least contributing factors.
I am attempting to determine what such a car would look like, could the cost be low enough to be a factor, and would it be fun enough to race so that it could become a viable racing class. I think of it as like a 1/12th pan car which has changed little over the years and the VTA class which is a spec class the differentiates itself enough to attract racers old and new.


I don't think this stuff is for the average racer, only for tinkerers.
The ultimate result is hoped to be a small (25? piece) "production run" of kits and spares to actually test the ideas behind the design. It is not intended for a scratch built class...

Thanks for your comments,
Ned
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:13 AM   #2938
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I guess I slipped it in on ya....I was working, frequency control.

I was never at that level. My best in the Nationals were top tens in the "Amateur" class when it was still run. A 3rd in open and 6th in SS after qualifying 10th in both! In Columbus. I also got something at Ratteys in the pan class when the suspension cars first raced. Don't remember what that was tho....
Gee Ned I think you confused him with the picture - he thought it was the young you with a mustache Just a clarification for all the picture is Art Carbonell holding the 1981 Worlds winning car , he won with great driving and race strategy but the handwriting was already on the wall , watching how well the heavy suspension cars cars matched up against our pan cars even on the glass smooth surface - it was my last race with a pan car !!! and if we'd been paying more attention Kondo's performance with the early pan/chain drive 4wd Kyosho was amazing but he broke every qualifier.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:43 PM   #2939
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Gee Ned I think you confused him with the picture - he thought it was the young you with a mustache Just a clarification for all the picture is Art Carbonell holding the 1981 Worlds winning car , he won with great driving and race strategy but the handwriting was already on the wall , watching how well the heavy suspension cars cars matched up against our pan cars even on the glass smooth surface - it was my last race with a pan car !!! and if we'd been paying more attention Kondo's performance with the early pan/chain drive 4wd Kyosho was amazing but he broke every qualifier.
I wish! That Kyosho chain drive was cool. I went to OS Max motors after seeing them run in those cars!
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:36 AM   #2940
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Originally Posted by Rick Davis View Post
Gee Ned I think you confused him with the picture - he thought it was the young you with a mustache Just a clarification for all the picture is Art Carbonell holding the 1981 Worlds winning car , he won with great driving and race strategy but the handwriting was already on the wall , watching how well the heavy suspension cars cars matched up against our pan cars even on the glass smooth surface - it was my last race with a pan car !!! and if we'd been paying more attention Kondo's performance with the early pan/chain drive 4wd Kyosho was amazing but he broke every qualifier.
Rick,
By 1981 you were running an associated RC300BD as I recall. I always wanted to ask you why you switched to the Associated car from your
beautiful scratch machined power pod car. Was the Associated that much
better handling car?

Dale Jones
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