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Old 07-13-2013, 12:29 PM   #2911
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Default Pan Rules

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Originally Posted by 1/8 oldschool View Post
Here in the east we've decided our pan class will also include any type of 1/8 vintage car, meaning any 2wd suspension or 4wd suspension chassis is allowed. What constitutes vintage is the next obvious question ; Any vehicle that came with wheels that donuts had to be glued onto is considered a vintage vehicle. Our reasoning behind this is, any person racing an RC500 or a Delta Eagle or a BMT or whatever vintage car will quickly realize once they start racing this thing and not trundleing around a parking lot or an empty track on a non-race day, parts breakage will begin as it does with any RC chassis. We are assuming the racer will fear they will not have the next part that breaks and decides to : A) return to the parking lot and non-race day track appearances and enjoys the memories of the few races they did compete in. : or B) decides they're having too much fun and decides to purchase a modern pan car with parts availability and continue racing with us. Naturally we hope it's the latter.
When we were originally working on getting the Pan Class going in Toledo, A very detailed set of rules were in development which did allow any type of vintage pan to compete and mentioned the possibility of vintage pan cars being run along with the "Classic" and "Vintage" Pans. For various reasons the rules were never finalized.
As it turns out the Toledo Club does not perform any type of tech inspection or publish race results so why would rules be needed?

It the ultimate "run what ya brung" for "instant gratification" (In your own mind, I guess!)
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #2912
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Default Tires

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That's true which is another reason we don't think a vintage driver will be participating in more than two or three races.But hopefully this will get him out there, enjoy the racing and comradory and purchase a modern pan car.
What would your ruling be if vintage pan cars were run with modern tires? Adapters have been made and my idea for an affordable pan car would use the same tires as the rest of the 1/8 on-road cars.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:08 PM   #2913
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What would your ruling be if vintage pan cars were run with modern tires? Adapters have been made and my idea for an affordable pan car would use the same tires as the rest of the 1/8 on-road cars.
......vintage pans almost HAVE to have adapters made to even run..NO ONE is interested in selling us donuts....and even if I could find a supply, my 300 can only use 1/2 the tire before scraping the rear of the chassis...Joe P mentioned he may have an idea to adapt small tooth pinion stock to an Edam bell. Maybe then we can get the gearing needed with 32 pitch gears. That would allow smaller rear spurs on the Associated cars thus allowing us to actually use up the rear tires...
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:23 PM   #2914
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Default Old tires

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......vintage pans almost HAVE to have adapters made to even run..NO ONE is interested in selling us donuts....and even if I could find a supply, my 300 can only use 1/2 the tire before scraping the rear of the chassis...Joe P mentioned he may have an idea to adapt small tooth pinion stock to an Edam bell. Maybe then we can get the gearing needed with 32 pitch gears. That would allow smaller rear spurs on the Associated cars thus allowing us to actually use up the rear tires...
Matt,

As are as using 1/2 the tire, check the roll-out vs. the gear ratio when the tires wear. You may find that you can go to a smaller spur and still have a reasonable effective ratio. Seem like Phil has proved that the gear ratio is not all that important!

I have made a few set of adapters but the diff one is a pain for me to machine and I think it may be marginal on strength. Why don't you see if you can get Rick's adapter or drawings and see if you can't get somebody to machine up 10 or 20? Joe T. may have a guy that could help...

As far as using the 32pitch gears, as been pointed out before, the vintage cars use 24 pitch, 32 is used by 1/12th nitro stuff. 32 may or may not be strong enough for the 1/8th scale engines... I have started to make up a 32 pitch rear axle for my prototype but have since lost interest...

By the way, if you look back thru the other thread on no frills pan cars, I have made a conversion for using 10 and 11 tooth pinions on the Associated 300 pod, with any off-road clutch...
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:05 PM   #2915
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
......vintage pans almost HAVE to have adapters made to even run..NO ONE is interested in selling us donuts....and even if I could find a supply, my 300 can only use 1/2 the tire before scraping the rear of the chassis...Joe P mentioned he may have an idea to adapt small tooth pinion stock to an Edam bell. Maybe then we can get the gearing needed with 32 pitch gears. That would allow smaller rear spurs on the Associated cars thus allowing us to actually use up the rear tires...
My RC300D has had adapters on it for 20+ years now. It was an easy mod, with one big proviso: I used the gear diff. Since the gear diff has the "normal" axle diameter (5/16", if I remember correctly) on each side, it was a simple matter to cut each side a little shorter and slide RC500 rear axle stubs, complete with quick-change apparatus, over the shortened RC300 axle. They fit perfectly! The RC500 stubs were held onto the RC300 axle with set screw collars, with the set screw going through a hole in the RC500 stub and securing onto a flat ground on the RC300 axle.

Since the RC500 and BMT cars used the same rear wheel attachment, I had a large supply of pre-mounted tires at my disposal (since I ran the BMT in 2WD class).

Unfortunately, I don't know of any sources for the RC300 gear diff today. I believe I bought the last one from Associated many years ago by calling them on the phone and asking if they had any old-timers working there who might know if they had any old RC300 parts left. They had exactly one gear diff (and maybe more than one old-timer!). I ended up selling that diff to another guy who was just starting in the class. The original is still on my car.

On a related note, has anyone tried to use the old ball diff, spur gears, and clutch bells, but with a jackshaft in between, using gears, not a belt? That would permit a further stage of gear reduction. It's a major modification, since the motor would need to be rotated 180 degrees, but it's an idea I've toyed around with for many years now.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:07 PM   #2916
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Matt,

As are as using 1/2 the tire, check the roll-out vs. the gear ratio when the tires wear. You may find that you can go to a smaller spur and still have a reasonable effective ratio. Seem like Phil has proved that the gear ratio is not all that important!

I have made a few set of adapters but the diff one is a pain for me to machine and I think it may be marginal on strength. Why don't you see if you can get Rick's adapter or drawings and see if you can't get somebody to machine up 10 or 20? Joe T. may have a guy that could help...

As far as using the 32pitch gears, as been pointed out before, the vintage cars use 24 pitch, 32 is used by 1/12th nitro stuff. 32 may or may not be strong enough for the 1/8th scale engines... I have started to make up a 32 pitch rear axle for my prototype but have since lost interest...

By the way, if you look back thru the other thread on no frills pan cars, I have made a conversion for using 10 and 11 tooth pinions on the Associated 300 pod, with any off-road clutch...
the ratio would probably be inline with smaller tires and a smaller rear spur....guess im looking for one solution to cure more than one problem...

I figure that 32 pitch probably could take the abuse a par car could dish out as we are not driving them as hard off the bottom like a 4WD car with their hard hitting clutches...and even if they didn't last as long we should be able to adapt a common stock 32 pitch from some source...that may be readily available as a stock item....

Joe T's buddy that made the ball diff adapters seems to have good resources....maybe get Davis and Joe T to talk...see if the adapters could be re-popped at a reasonable dollar...
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:43 PM   #2917
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Default Adapters....

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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
My RC300D has had adapters on it for 20+ years now. It was an easy mod, with one big proviso: I used the gear diff. Since the gear diff has the "normal" axle diameter (5/16", if I remember correctly) on each side, it was a simple matter to cut each side a little shorter and slide RC500 rear axle stubs, complete with quick-change apparatus, over the shortened RC300 axle. They fit perfectly! The RC500 stubs were held onto the RC300 axle with set screw collars, with the set screw going through a hole in the RC500 stub and securing onto a flat ground on the RC300 axle.

Since the RC500 and BMT cars used the same rear wheel attachment, I had a large supply of pre-mounted tires at my disposal (since I ran the BMT in 2WD class).

Unfortunately, I don't know of any sources for the RC300 gear diff today. I believe I bought the last one from Associated many years ago by calling them on the phone and asking if they had any old-timers working there who might know if they had any old RC300 parts left. They had exactly one gear diff (and maybe more than one old-timer!). I ended up selling that diff to another guy who was just starting in the class. The original is still on my car.

On a related note, has anyone tried to use the old ball diff, spur gears, and clutch bells, but with a jackshaft in between, using gears, not a belt? That would permit a further stage of gear reduction. It's a major modification, since the motor would need to be rotated 180 degrees, but it's an idea I've toyed around with for many years now.
You have pointed out the obvious problem: There are essentially no gear diffs available and the last one I saw sold on eBay for ~$300! AND there are no spare parts.

You might do well to check out this thread Spec 1/8 Pan Car .21 no frill's racing it is more to the topic of "vintage" as opposed to "Classic" Pan Cars...

As for the gear reduction, it has been done and discussed, but using off-road type gear diff. The diff is one of the big problems. Associated ball diffs are very rare and expensive (`$100 to $200 if you can find them!) Also you would need smaller ball diff spurs, old clutches and then cut off the crank on a perfectly good engine.... on and on and on. I suggest you read thru this and the other thread. There really is not that much interest when you get right down to it.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:43 PM   #2918
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Default Look around!

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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
the ratio would probably be inline with smaller tires and a smaller rear spur....guess im looking for one solution to cure more than one problem...

I figure that 32 pitch probably could take the abuse a par car could dish out as we are not driving them as hard off the bottom like a 4WD car with their hard hitting clutches...and even if they didn't last as long we should be able to adapt a common stock 32 pitch from some source...that may be readily available as a stock item....

Joe T's buddy that made the ball diff adapters seems to have good resources....maybe get Davis and Joe T to talk...see if the adapters could be re-popped at a reasonable dollar...
On the other side of the coin, We've seen the power of a 3-port pan car rip its pinon gear off, or blow up its clutch bell. There's some power being sent thru there for sure. Not saying don't try a 32 pitch, just be aware of the power you are dealing with.
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:35 PM   #2919
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
You have pointed out the obvious problem: There are essentially no gear diffs available and the last one I saw sold on eBay for ~$300! AND there are no spare parts.

You might do well to check out this thread Spec 1/8 Pan Car .21 no frill's racing it is more to the topic of "vintage" as opposed to "Classic" Pan Cars...

As for the gear reduction, it has been done and discussed, but using off-road type gear diff. The diff is one of the big problems. Associated ball diffs are very rare and expensive (`$100 to $200 if you can find them!) Also you would need smaller ball diff spurs, old clutches and then cut off the crank on a perfectly good engine.... on and on and on. I suggest you read thru this and the other thread. There really is not that much interest when you get right down to it.
$300? Now I'm kicking myself for not holding onto that gear diff.

I've been reading the "spec" thread lately, too. I liked the 1/10 pan gas car you made!

I agree about the lack of interest. I'm not sure if that's due to the lack of availability of a suitable car, lack of interest in the class, or because a used (and usable) 4WD car can be pretty affordable, especially if run as a 2WD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
On the other side of the coin, We've seen the power of a 3-port pan car rip its pinon gear off, or blow up its clutch bell. There's some power being sent thru there for sure. Not saying don't try a 32 pitch, just be aware of the power you are dealing with.
I think the 32 pitch would be fine, given the amount of torque that racers are putting through 64 and 48 pitch gears with brushless electric motors. It would be nice to use a complete 1/10 scale axle assembly with appropriate adapters, but the 1/4" axle is likely too thin. That would require designing and manufacturing an equivalent, using a 5/16" or 3/8" axle. Again and unfortunately, as aarcobra observed, there's probably not enough interest to make the effort worthwhile.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:38 PM   #2920
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Default Clutch bell issues

Although I have not seen the broken parts, I believe they were all Motonica parts and I also believe that routine maintenance is not regularly practiced by those involved

I must say that I do agree that the 32 pitch gears are likely to be marginal at best. It keeps being brought up but I do not think those who are proposing it are aware of the other issues involved such as a smaller ball dif, no adapters for a disk brake set-up, and the fact that 32 pitch gears, Kimbrough for example, are set up for 1/4" dia axles, all making it unlikely to be reliable.

Just my .02 worth...
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:38 PM   #2921
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My daughter is coming with us this Sunday.

She will be trying her hand at the pan.

She has NEVER driven one of these....or any other remote control.

................

Hmmmmm.

................

I'm not worried about any of you guys hitting her, you understand. But I'm a little worried about her hitting YOU. And our experience thus far at teaching her to drive a full size vehicle (she wants a drivers license) has been...

So, to sum up, please avoid the yellow/blue car and be patient. I doubt she'll get the bug, she's into texting, laptops, and so forth, but she wants to give it a crack at least once and I'm sort of happy about that.....I think.
Did you explain how to not show you up? That is very neat and I hope she has a great time. If I can be of any help, just let me know.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:50 PM   #2922
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My daughter is coming with us this Sunday.

She will be trying her hand at the pan.

She has NEVER driven one of these....or any other remote control.
Glad to hear it! We need more women in RC. I had the privilege of meeting Sabrina Lechner at the 1/8th Worlds. Great driver, very cool chic. There are a few like her racing in Europe.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:55 PM   #2923
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Although I have not seen the broken parts, I believe they were all Motonica parts and I also believe that routine maintenance is not regularly practiced by those involved

I must say that I do agree that the 32 pitch gears are likely to be marginal at best. It keeps being brought up but I do not think those who are proposing it are aware of the other issues involved such as a smaller ball dif, no adapters for a disk brake set-up, and the fact that 32 pitch gears, Kimbrough for example, are set up for 1/4" dia axles, all making it unlikely to be reliable.

Just my .02 worth...
One of the broken cars was a aarcobra hand-me-down, that being said, in between brakes, I drove it, It was sweet! Then it blew up again.
I really wish you guys the best of luck on your different projects! However having spent the bucks for the new stuff, I am glad I did.

LETS RACE SOME MORE !!
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:59 PM   #2924
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Most of the expensive NOS gear diffs I have seen are the British made AMPS gear diff conversion set for the RC300. AMPS made the 4wd Rapier chassis with the inline motor configuration, and supposedly made the best gear diff for the RC300.

Many vintage SG chassis have a similarly designed gear diff. You could likely buy a complete SG car for 300.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:59 PM   #2925
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Default Pan Interest?

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$300? Now I'm kicking myself for not holding onto that gear diff.

I've been reading the "spec" thread lately, too. I liked the 1/10 pan gas car you made!

I agree about the lack of interest. I'm not sure if that's due to the lack of availability of a suitable car, lack of interest in the class, or because a used (and usable) 4WD car can be pretty affordable, especially if run as a 2WD.



I think the 32 pitch would be fine, given the amount of torque that racers are putting through 64 and 48 pitch gears with brushless electric motors. It would be nice to use a complete 1/10 scale axle assembly with appropriate adapters, but the 1/4" axle is likely too thin. That would require designing and manufacturing an equivalent, using a 5/16" or 3/8" axle. Again and unfortunately, as aarcobra observed, there's probably not enough interest to make the effort worthwhile.
Howard, We have been all over the lack of interest and I think you have good points, it's difficult to pin down the reason that although it is going very well in Toledo, the rest of the Midwest Series has very little interest. (Shows what a small core group of dedicated racers can do, Lon Sr. being the main driver. Not so much by talking about what needs to be done but by having a three car Pan Car Team, with a total of 5 to 7 cars!!!!)

I would like to build a run of about 20 lo-buck, no-frills vintage style pan cars and see if availability would help. Unfortunately I have come to the same conclusion as you, as it stands now, a used 4wd car would actually be cheaper, and offer more opportunities to race than any type of pan car. (I just bought a fully upgraded Serpent for under $300 with tons of spares!)

Interesting that although I replied to Lon's comment on the 32 pitch gears before I read your post, we have the same conclusions!!

Hopefully in the future I will be able to test my Prototype and see what works and what doesn't. The main roadblock I have now is spur gears and a ball diff axle. What do you think of running a clutch brake and a straight axle?!?!

Ned
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