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Old 07-07-2013, 03:04 PM   #2896
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Default WRC Racing - GT DUE EVO

Hello fellow Pan Car Lovers

With release scheduled for August, we are planning (fingers crossed) to introduce the new WRC chassis at this summer's Great Lakes Challenge, as well as provide support for all of our WRC drivers in attendance. More details in the coming weeks.

Please see the exciting news here:

WRC Racing - GT DUE EVO

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Last edited by MrHistory; 07-07-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:24 PM   #2897
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First Moto...now WRC. I'm still not exactly overjoyed about that front end, and I know I'll eventually be forced to incorporate something like it into my design. Chassis flex I get, and I can live with some type of limiter to it like all the cars were way back when. But an entire flex plate with adjustable tension is entirely too close to suspension for me.

Now the likelihood of anyone showing up with what I'm about to remark upon is slim to none, due to the lack of parts, not that many people have them, and so forth (plus, not too many people want to run an antique car worth a lot more than anything else on the track.) But the concensus was to not allow locked out former suspension cars. I'd like to ask that be lifted. No, I really don't expect anyone to show up with such a thing, nor will I do so myself, but I think it'd be fair. A Super Eagle or a 500 locked out still doesn't have the adjustments for camber/caster/tow that new pans do and are heavier, so they obviously would not have any significant advantages. A converted 4wd would have the adjustments, but lose some on weight, and neither the converted old nor new would have a quasi-flex plate like what the new stuff has. Weight in itself is not a huge disadvantage...I'm running about the same lap times as Joe P. and I bet I weigh at least 3/4 of a pound more. But neither the old 2wd suspension nor the 4wd were designed to run as 2wd non-suspension. If there is even one guy out there who wants to run in our class and can field a car with no active suspension/4wd, it should be allowed, and any questions of fairness can be considered as they arise.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:24 PM   #2898
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Default WRONG !

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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
First Moto...now WRC. I'm still not exactly overjoyed about that front end, and I know I'll eventually be forced to incorporate something like it into my design. Chassis flex I get, and I can live with some type of limiter to it like all the cars were way back when. But an entire flex plate with adjustable tension is entirely too close to suspension for me.

Now the likelihood of anyone showing up with what I'm about to remark upon is slim to none, due to the lack of parts, not that many people have them, and so forth (plus, not too many people want to run an antique car worth a lot more than anything else on the track.) But the concensus was to not allow locked out former suspension cars. I'd like to ask that be lifted. No, I really don't expect anyone to show up with such a thing, nor will I do so myself, but I think it'd be fair. A Super Eagle or a 500 locked out still doesn't have the adjustments for camber/caster/tow that new pans do and are heavier, so they obviously would not have any significant advantages. A converted 4wd would have the adjustments, but lose some on weight, and neither the converted old nor new would have a quasi-flex plate like what the new stuff has. Weight in itself is not a huge disadvantage...I'm running about the same lap times as Joe P. and I bet I weigh at least 3/4 of a pound more. But neither the old 2wd suspension nor the 4wd were designed to run as 2wd non-suspension. If there is even one guy out there who wants to run in our class and can field a car with no active suspension/4wd, it should be allowed, and any questions of fairness can be considered as they arise.
Over the years of talking with anyone who had any input in regards to how to make a pan class work. Several well seasoned Racers have said stay away from locking out suspension on 2wd and 4wd cars running with the pans. It was done before and cause lots of problems, perhaps leading to the end of the pans. I can't tell you the details caused I never asked. I have no problem with,"If you went to run with the pan cars, get a pan car." K.I.S.S.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:51 PM   #2899
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Do those lower arms in the Evo even move, other than I'm sure they have some flex in them? It looks like both of the lower 'arms' are a single piece. The top arms clearly can move up and down, if the lower arms flexed. It looks like the fore and aft adjustment of the upper arms is just to be able to change the caster.

I assume for any pan car to work there has to be some degree of movement or compliance in the front end. I've owned a few carpet pan cars over the years, and all of them had some degree of front suspension, even if it was just the steering blocks moving up and down on the kingpin suspended against a spring in the arm carrier.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:50 PM   #2900
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Yes it seems the upper arm is for adjusting caster. Thinking about the previous design commonly used, when you moved caster it would effectively change the location of both the top and bottom arm position. This new design is more like a 12th scale car, with the lower arm maintaining a fixed position. All mounted on a floating plate though...it will be interesting to see in person.

Regarding the suspension, unlike an electric pan car, you cannot use springs in this class, so the car relies on flex to create the desired tuning characteristics. I have contacted a team driver at WRC in hopes of get a report on the new car, as well as a comparison between the two models. I will share any information I receive on the GT Due thread.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:30 AM   #2901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
Over the years of talking with anyone who had any input in regards to how to make a pan class work. Several well seasoned Racers have said stay away from locking out suspension on 2wd and 4wd cars running with the pans. It was done before and cause lots of problems, perhaps leading to the end of the pans. I can't tell you the details caused I never asked. I have no problem with,"If you went to run with the pan cars, get a pan car." K.I.S.S.
First, arthritis sucks and we're getting a ton of rain.

Next...I still don't see a problem. Frankly, I don't expect even one person to show up with a conversion of sorts. Problem is, we've only got so many people, some aren't in a position to invest in a new ride, and we need to encourage others to do our thing with us. The Edam prototype I'm working on will essentially be a full blown Edam, minus suspension and 2 speed, with my version of a front end on it.

As you know, a SuperJ works thru chassis flex. The front servo tray screw does double duty, and you typically leave it a little loose in order to allow the chassis full flex (or tighten it as need be.) That said, all the flex is in the chassis, and you can either have full flex or no flex...hitting anything in-between is hit and miss at best.

The new series of pan as I understand it has a floating sub, and the amount of travel is more controllable. Therefore, it's got a built in advantage that no vintage 2wd or converted 4wd can have. Locking out suspension is just that...and anyone suggesting that "slop" could be an advantage isn't making much sense, and it certainly wouldn't be an advantage when all the new pans have the same amount of "slop" availible due to having roughly the same build as per pillow ball mounts and so forth.

I'm not keen on the current builds, I think it more mirrors a type of suspension. That said, there are only a few manufacturers of pan, they are building them the same way, so to rule them out would be to rule out the only people making them....and I'm definitely not in favor of that. But, f'r instance, there may be someone with an old 4wd (think Excel) who can't afford a new kit but would still like to come play. I just want to make sure that we're not excluding anyone for mythical advantages. We are making what I consider good progress, but we're nowhere near the point where we can afford to exclude people without mighty good cause.
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:35 AM   #2902
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Allowing suspension cars with the suspensions locked is a good idea to increase participation. They have no advantages over a pan car, and all of the disadvantages of a suspension car, including higher weight and increased drag in the drive train.

I TQ'd and won the second annual Paris / Palace Station Can Am Challenge in Las Vegas in 1991 using my Associated RC300D. One of the other guys was running a "locked" RC500. It was the first time I had seen that done, and I had a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to do it. It caused some consternation amongst the other drivers, but the organizers decided to let it run.

After qualifying, the driver of the RC500 stopped in my pit to see what kind of "magic" car had gone faster than his supposedly superior RC500, and was disappointed to see the old RC300 (with gear diff and no radio tray!) sitting there.

He was even more disappointed to find out that his Paris Rex engine was beaten by a Veco 19. Ron Paris might have also been disappointed, since the driver was sponsored by Ron!

Ah, good times...
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:37 AM   #2903
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Default Port Jervis 2wd/vintage class

Here in the east we've decided our pan class will also include any type of 1/8 vintage car, meaning any 2wd suspension or 4wd suspension chassis is allowed. What constitutes vintage is the next obvious question ; Any vehicle that came with wheels that donuts had to be glued onto is considered a vintage vehicle. Our reasoning behind this is, any person racing an RC500 or a Delta Eagle or a BMT or whatever vintage car will quickly realize once they start racing this thing and not trundleing around a parking lot or an empty track on a non-race day, parts breakage will begin as it does with any RC chassis. We are assuming the racer will fear they will not have the next part that breaks and decides to : A) return to the parking lot and non-race day track appearances and enjoys the memories of the few races they did compete in. : or B) decides they're having too much fun and decides to purchase a modern pan car with parts availability and continue racing with us. Naturally we hope it's the latter.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:25 AM   #2904
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Originally Posted by 1/8 oldschool View Post
Here in the east we've decided our pan class will also include any type of 1/8 vintage car, meaning any 2wd suspension or 4wd suspension chassis is allowed. What constitutes vintage is the next obvious question ; Any vehicle that came with wheels that donuts had to be glued onto is considered a vintage vehicle. Our reasoning behind this is, any person racing an RC500 or a Delta Eagle or a BMT or whatever vintage car will quickly realize once they start racing this thing and not trundleing around a parking lot or an empty track on a non-race day, parts breakage will begin as it does with any RC chassis. We are assuming the racer will fear they will not have the next part that breaks and decides to : A) return to the parking lot and non-race day track appearances and enjoys the memories of the few races they did compete in. : or B) decides they're having too much fun and decides to purchase a modern pan car with parts availability and continue racing with us. Naturally we hope it's the latter.
..only problem with that is donuts are hard to find....and guys like BSR don't want to sell donuts......
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:39 AM   #2905
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..only problem with that is donuts are hard to find....and guys like BSR don't want to sell donuts......
That's true which is another reason we don't think a vintage driver will be participating in more than two or three races.But hopefully this will get him out there, enjoy the racing and comradory and purchase a modern pan car.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:59 AM   #2906
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Allowing suspension cars with the suspensions locked is a good idea to increase participation. They have no advantages over a pan car, and all of the disadvantages of a suspension car, including higher weight and increased drag in the drive train.

I TQ'd and won the second annual Paris / Palace Station Can Am Challenge in Las Vegas in 1991 using my Associated RC300D. One of the other guys was running a "locked" RC500. It was the first time I had seen that done, and I had a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to do it. It caused some consternation amongst the other drivers, but the organizers decided to let it run.

After qualifying, the driver of the RC500 stopped in my pit to see what kind of "magic" car had gone faster than his supposedly superior RC500, and was disappointed to see the old RC300 (with gear diff and no radio tray!) sitting there.

He was even more disappointed to find out that his Paris Rex engine was beaten by a Veco 19. Ron Paris might have also been disappointed, since the driver was sponsored by Ron!

Ah, good times...
Howard, What a great story, Thanks so much for sharing it with us. A Veco .19, I hope you had at least a Perry 40 carb on it.

It seems as if we have spent allot of time on an idea that no one really cares about. It's not my class, but if it were, I'd say you need a pan to race with the pans. Simple and clear! We are having a blast, come join us. Ok, perhaps a guy shows up and wants to run his locked out cars to test the waters, on a club level, let em run 3 maybe 5 races to get the feel (no awards or points). At that point you remind them it's a pan class and he needs to get on board with everyone else. I guess we wouldn't be much of a club if we didn't offer this guy a chance to enjoy the hobby.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:35 PM   #2907
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Default Looking for Graham Smith

Anyone know Graham Smith from UK.

I am looking for him. Anyone know his contact no or hp no?

can let me know

thx
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:27 PM   #2908
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
Howard, What a great story, Thanks so much for sharing it with us. A Veco .19, I hope you had at least a Perry 40 carb on it.

It seems as if we have spent allot of time on an idea that no one really cares about. It's not my class, but if it were, I'd say you need a pan to race with the pans. Simple and clear! We are having a blast, come join us. Ok, perhaps a guy shows up and wants to run his locked out cars to test the waters, on a club level, let em run 3 maybe 5 races to get the feel (no awards or points). At that point you remind them it's a pan class and he needs to get on board with everyone else. I guess we wouldn't be much of a club if we didn't offer this guy a chance to enjoy the hobby.
Fancy that, Lon woke up...lol...I know you seniors need your nap, but no amount of "beauty sleep" is gonna help you, Mr. "I want my parts back...."

That Perry carb was one of the best carbs I ever ran. I had one mounted on a Paris K&B, it was simple to tune and never faltered. I ran the hell out of that thing till Delta started making carbs, which were better, but not by much.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking...let a guy run and decide what to do. You may recall not too long ago when I showed up with a bunch of Delta products, just to see if I could still drive and if I wanted to. Didn't take long for the bug to kick back in, even if it did take me six months to decide on a car (Edam that is, you can go back to sleep now, Lon.)

I'm not making the progress I'd like on the Edam prototype...I'm doing ok on our scratch build, and I'm trying over the course of the year to come up with an AFFORDABLE pan alternative. Our hobby ain't cheap, and I know there are guys out there running on a shoestring budget, not to mention some of the old crowd I'm still trying to convince to come out and play with their vintage/antique stuff. So long as we're not driving them off, I'm good...I doubt they'd care about points and awards, I know I don't. I've had more fun battling out a 3rd place in a C main than winning an A main...seemed like the one was more work (still fun, you understand....but more work.) And anyone showing up with the old stuff or something locked out is probably just looking to turn laps anyhow. Much appreciate your take on it...hope you read this after you wake back up!
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:45 PM   #2909
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Default Heads up, people

My daughter is coming with us this Sunday.

She will be trying her hand at the pan.

She has NEVER driven one of these....or any other remote control.

................

Hmmmmm.

................

I'm not worried about any of you guys hitting her, you understand. But I'm a little worried about her hitting YOU. And our experience thus far at teaching her to drive a full size vehicle (she wants a drivers license) has been...

So, to sum up, please avoid the yellow/blue car and be patient. I doubt she'll get the bug, she's into texting, laptops, and so forth, but she wants to give it a crack at least once and I'm sort of happy about that.....I think.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #2910
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
My daughter is coming with us this Sunday.

She will be trying her hand at the pan.

She has NEVER driven one of these....or any other remote control.

................

Hmmmmm.

................

I'm not worried about any of you guys hitting her, you understand. But I'm a little worried about her hitting YOU. And our experience thus far at teaching her to drive a full size vehicle (she wants a drivers license) has been...

So, to sum up, please avoid the yellow/blue car and be patient. I doubt she'll get the bug, she's into texting, laptops, and so forth, but she wants to give it a crack at least once and I'm sort of happy about that.....I think.
..ill bring my 4 year old...we can turn the class into a demo-derby...
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