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Old 05-09-2013, 11:51 AM   #2701
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Jason,
I started to write a response to your comments, but soon realized it was of little value. The bottom line is your assumptions and mine are totally different. The fact is there is no "body rule' or any rules for that matter, for the pan class in Toledo. In the MidWest Series there are only references to allowing the racers to make them up. So any body is fine.

What the discussion here is about is a struggle that has been going on from day one about making the class unique and different appearing on the track by using bodies different than those used on the 4wd cars. We started with Motonica Sedan/GT bodies and when someone tried the modern body,that was the end of the GT. Many of us have '70's vintage bodies we got on the internet for $15 (re-pop, not NOS) and planned to use them.

It may help you to know that this is a small group. To compare it with how things are done in Europe is not reasonable. Last year, a total of 13 people ran in the class, 3 raced once, 4 more raced in 5 or less of the 10 races. As far as in the Midwest Series their may have been 2 or 3 entries from outside this group all season.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:10 PM   #2702
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Jason, Well said! The bottom line is, these cars are a blast to race. The idea of these cars looking different then 4wd has always been so the spectators not think they are seeing a slow 4wd. The fast body running is perhaps a 5 year old one left behind by 4wd. They're cheap and out there. I'm running 70s and 80s bodies and loving it thou I give up a little to an 05 body. I have to choose, do I change to go fast and have less fun or have a bunch of fun and eat some dirt. Dirt don't taste so bad! We are trying to avoid the super (thingy) bodies being brought into the 4wd today. If the new guy shows up with one, there is no problem. As you have pointed out they get replaced and the next time, he'd better under stand our point. It's the guy that's out to kick butt, we went him here for sure, but we went him to work within the same guide lines as everyone else. If you know your way around a track, you know what bodies we don't went!
LETS RACE SOME MORE!!
Agree...If a guy shows up with a modern body.....he's not getting kicked out.....we are just trying to encourage cars that resemble cars that have ran in real life......If all out performance is desired...go to 4WD...that's why it's there.....I consider the pan class the gentleman's class....not the slit your throat class like 4WD...Our goal is to have some close racing....rub some fenders....and laugh at each other.....as well as ourselves.......main goal is to GROW in numbers...in every class...
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:08 PM   #2703
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Agree...If a guy shows up with a modern body.....he's not getting kicked out.....we are just trying to encourage cars that resemble cars that have ran in real life......If all out performance is desired...go to 4WD...that's why it's there.....I consider the pan class the gentleman's class....not the slit your throat class like 4WD...Our goal is to have some close racing....rub some fenders....and laugh at each other.....as well as ourselves.......main goal is to GROW in numbers...in every class...
"Slit your throat class." Fine. I've been making good headway on a remote oil slick, surface to surface missiles, and those prongy things to fit on my car like in Ben Hur, and now you want to take that all away. Also, don't we have to be gentlemen to run in a gentleman's class?

As for rubbing...I got a semi-decent rub in on Lon at the club race, and I'm looking forward to more. I've got the other engine lined up, took some more out of the bulkheads, ordered up that flex stock (thanx, by the way, it'll be here tomorrow so I'll have it on for the MWS race) and the car should be good to go.

For the most part, I'm indifferent on bodies, outside of GT bodies, which Ned likes and I hate....just a matter of personal preference. As for modern vs. vintage, my build will take either body and the handling characteristics shouldn't be that vast, I always had good luck with the Elfin body and I'm happy with the new Protoform body, so that doesn't matter to me. That said, I too wouldn't restrict anyone from running whatever body they like, that alone could add to the "uniqueness" of what we're trying to do. But one thing we aren't in pan class is running "cookie-cutter" cars, where they all look like they came out of the same factory and the only real differences being in the paint used. Maybe we'll end up as a modellers class, I don't know...I'm just happy to get the thing running and turn laps, I didn't get to do it for 27 years so performance and winning just aren't going to matter as much to me (not that I'd MIND doing well, you understand...lol.) Either way, we're having fun...and when the rule book gets too thick, burn it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:28 PM   #2704
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"Slit your throat class." Fine. That said, I too wouldn't restrict anyone from running whatever body they like, that alone could add to the "uniqueness" of what we're trying to do. But one thing we aren't in pan class is running "cookie-cutter" cars, where they all look like they came out of the same factory and the only real differences being in the paint used. Maybe we'll end up as a modellers class, I don't know...I'm just happy to get the thing running and turn laps, I didn't get to do it for 27 years so performance and winning just aren't going to matter as much to me (not that I'd MIND doing well, you understand...lol.) Either way, we're having fun...and when the rule book gets too thick, burn it.
...I said NOT the slit your throat class...wish mine had ran also....but I guess that's part of it when you (I) build your own POS....
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:45 PM   #2705
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"
For the most part, I'm indifferent on bodies, outside of GT bodies, which Ned likes and I hate....just a matter of personal preference. As for modern vs. vintage, my build will take either body and the handling characteristics shouldn't be that vast, I always had good luck with the Elfin body and I'm happy with the new Protoform body, so that doesn't matter to me. That said, I too wouldn't restrict anyone from running whatever body they like, that alone could add to the "uniqueness" of what we're trying to do. But one thing we aren't in pan class is running "cookie-cutter" cars, where they all look like they came out of the same factory and the only real differences being in the paint used. Maybe we'll end up as a modellers class, I don't know...I'm just happy to get the thing running and turn laps, I didn't get to do it for 27 years so performance and winning just aren't going to matter as much to me (not that I'd MIND doing well, you understand...lol.) Either way, we're having fun...and when the rule book gets too thick, burn it.
Phil, Too much talk about bodies! Yes some of us like "GT" bodies. Actually it is Matt, Lon, and me, and if you count Lon's three cars, that's half the field, not counting me!!!

Run what you want, have fun! (the average number of entries per race last year was 5 so we need all the cars we can get!!!

I do have a different viewpoint, as usual, on the "cookie cutter" comment. Except for your Delta, Matt's 300, and Rick's car, all the cars raced last year were Classic/Modern Pans. All except one run were Moto's (my French Fry). (Rick ran once, Matt 3 times, and you 5 times). The way I see it most of the people who see the cars only see the bodies, so to me, the body should be different to help identify the difference in cars.

That is the main reason some of us would like to see different bodies on the pan cars. Most of us have come to the conclusion that in our "instant gratification" society, modelers are few and far between and for the class to have any chance of growing, a cheaper, ready to run type car is needed.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:53 PM   #2706
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Phil, Too much talk about bodies! Yes some of us like "GT" bodies. Actually it is Matt, Lon, and me, and if you count Lon's three cars, that's half the field, not counting me!!!

Run what you want, have fun! (the average number of entries per race last year was 5 so we need all the cars we can get!!!

I do have a different viewpoint, as usual, on the "cookie cutter" comment. Except for your Delta, Matt's 300, and Rick's car, all the cars raced last year were Classic/Modern Pans. All except one run were Moto's (my French Fry). (Rick ran once, Matt 3 times, and you 5 times). The way I see it most of the people who see the cars only see the bodies, so to me, the body should be different to help identify the difference in cars.

That is the main reason some of us would like to see different bodies on the pan cars. Most of us have come to the conclusion that in our "instant gratification" society, modelers are few and far between and for the class to have any chance of growing, a cheaper, ready to run type car is needed.
And we'll have an RTR of sorts. I'm not sure what it'll be yet, whether it'll be an Edam build, my build, or someone elses (or all the above), but we're not without options. It's not easy to be all things to all people, but I think we've got so many options ahead of us that anyone who can't find what they need in our class probably can't be helped anyways. So long as we're not stuck all racing the same body and the same car but with a different name stamped on it, we get to keep the uniqueness, and there will be something in it for everyone.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:45 PM   #2707
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By the way, we look forward to meeting you! You sound to be of the same stuff as the rest of us. I'd like to think that's "COOL" stuff!
I know I have met some of you guys. I went to the GLC a number of years ago to interview the old school racers, and I know I talked to quite a few of you who were there the year I went. Unfortunately I herniated a disc in my back shortly after which has delayed my history project, and someone else then started doing what I had been working on. But I never stopped and will complete my research this year. I had surgery in the fall and am now walking around much better.

I would like to race in the class with you guys this summer but am not sure about the schedule. It would be an honor to be on the driver's stand with first generation r.c.'ers. I was really hoping that the Byron's Race or the GLC would have the Pan class...

Can someone let me know when the class will run?

Thanks! Jason
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:06 PM   #2708
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Jason,
I started to write a response to your comments, but soon realized it was of little value. The bottom line is your assumptions and mine are totally different. The fact is there is no "body rule' or any rules for that matter, for the pan class in Toledo. In the MidWest Series there are only references to allowing the racers to make them up. So any body is fine.
I can appreciate these various possible directions. And as I said before I love the original cars as much as anyone. But yes, there are clearly different ways to race the pan class.

As I have discussed one-on-one with many people, the big view of nitro onroad is that it might be dying, might be. I really like the possibility that the 2wd pan class could be a way to save it. Right now the GT class has become the entry class, so Im not sure where pan car is going. But I believe, like many of you, that it is the perfect formula for a low cost/high performance class. And its the ORIGINAL CLASS. That alone should justify running it now and forever.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:30 PM   #2709
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FYI: in the Toledo area at least, there are more Pans running than GT's. As for running pans the Toledo club may have the strongest pan group in the Country with 4 to 8 running at each race last year. I expect it to be near that number again this season. I believe there were 6 or so last Sunday, the first race.

The class will be part of the MWS again and will race with the GT class most likely. Since all of the Toledo guys don't go to all the MWS races, 3 to 6 pans would be likely. With the most in Toledo.

The Byron Race is a seperate deal and I don't know if they will have pans or not...

Jlap you can see results from Toledo and MWS Races here:
http://www.jlaprm.com/JL_Home.aspx

Schedule and MWS Info here:
http://www.midwestseries.com/

Toledo info here:
http://toledooneeighthracers.com/schedule

(If you don't think nitro on road is dying, Look at the MWS history on the site. Notice the number of entrants and the number of cities that have held races over the years. While there are certainly pockets of popularity left, overall there are fewer opportunities to race...I started racing in Toledo in 1970, moved to SCarolina and found 1/8th gas in Atlanta. Raced there and even got enough interest to have races here in Greenville, as Atl Club weakened. Now I can go to New York, Florida, or Toledo (and the Midwest Series) all 400 to 800 miles away.)

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Old 05-10-2013, 08:44 AM   #2710
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FYI: in the Toledo area at least, there are more Pans running than GT's. As for running pans the Toledo club may have the strongest pan group in the Country with 4 to 8 running at each race last year. I expect it to be near that number again this season. I believe there were 6 or so last Sunday, the first race.

The class will be part of the MWS again and will race with the GT class most likely. Since all of the Toledo guys don't go to all the MWS races, 3 to 6 pans would be likely. With the most in Toledo.

The Byron Race is a seperate deal and I don't know if they will have pans or not...

Jlap you can see results from Toledo and MWS Races here:
http://www.jlaprm.com/JL_Home.aspx

Schedule and MWS Info here:
http://www.midwestseries.com/

Toledo info here:
http://toledooneeighthracers.com/schedule

(If you don't think nitro on road is dying, Look at the MWS history on the site. Notice the number of entrants and the number of cities that have held races over the years. While there are certainly pockets of popularity left, overall there are fewer opportunities to race...I started racing in Toledo in 1970, moved to SCarolina and found 1/8th gas in Atlanta. Raced there and even got enough interest to have races here in Greenville, as Atl Club weakened. Now I can go to New York, Florida, or Toledo (and the Midwest Series) all 400 to 800 miles away.)
I don't know if onroad is dying or not. I know it's in bad health, but most of pan/onroad problems revolve around three things, IMHO.

1. Offroad. The convenience of running whatever you have wherever you like.
2. Cost. I import Edam 4wd for half.....HALF.....what the other builders want for a kit. And there are a bunch of RTR offroad out there starting at 200 and up. We are not a newbie market, and you need the newbies to keep things going.
3. Clubs/communication/teamwork. A lot of onroad is tucked away and running where people can't see it, it's usually the same few guys that keep everything running, blah blah (I suspect we've covered this all before in many different ways.) And I won't even start again on ROAR, who I hear from once a year when I owe them money.

We have a fun hobby that no one sees, that many cannot afford, and those who see it and can afford it are often not encouraged to continue. All these probs are fixable, the only real debate is whether the fix will occur.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:03 AM   #2711
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(If you don't think nitro on road is dying, Look at the MWS history on the site. Notice the number of entrants and the number of cities that have held races over the years. While there are certainly pockets of popularity left, overall there are fewer opportunities to race...

Don't know about dying but certainly on life support We are very lucky that Toledo turned into a magnet location for the few of us that enjoy the hobby , heck two Saturdays ago Steve Lazarus came over from Chicago just for practice - I even asked and he had no other mission.
Think you guys are on a good path with the pan car class to try and lower cost and complexity and I'd like to play but there just isn't enough time in a raceday to race twice and marshal twice and pit at least once - no time left for wrenching, just think that without manufacturer / importer / local hobby shop support you're pushing sand uphill - maybe Phil's efforts with EDAM will be fruitful.
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:41 PM   #2712
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(If you don't think nitro on road is dying, Look at the MWS history on the site. Notice the number of entrants and the number of cities that have held races over the years. While there are certainly pockets of popularity left, overall there are fewer opportunities to race...

Don't know about dying but certainly on life support We are very lucky that Toledo turned into a magnet location for the few of us that enjoy the hobby , heck two Saturdays ago Steve Lazarus came over from Chicago just for practice - I even asked and he had no other mission.
Think you guys are on a good path with the pan car class to try and lower cost and complexity and I'd like to play but there just isn't enough time in a raceday to race twice and marshal twice and pit at least once - no time left for wrenching, just think that without manufacturer / importer / local hobby shop support you're pushing sand uphill - maybe Phil's efforts with EDAM will be fruitful.
Rick, Dying, life support...you know what I'm getting at. Toledo is very fortunate to have the leadership and membership to have one of the best tracks and programs in the USA. (I remember you saying "pushing sand uphill" in the "good old days" )

Unfortunately the info I referred to about attendance etc. seems to be no longer available on the MWS Site, probably a good thing...

Plan to come up for the MWS next week.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #2713
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Think you guys are on a good path with the pan car class to try and lower cost and complexity and I'd like to play but there just isn't enough time in a raceday to race twice and marshal twice and pit at least once - no time left for wrenching,.[/QUOTE].....we want you to run pan too.....im sure we can help you with your marshall duties.....I have spair time when diffs and clutches aren't exploding....( we know you don't get around as good as the old days).....running 2 cars is very hard.......think I tried once last year and gave it up in 5 minutes.........
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:10 PM   #2714
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Default Hmmm...a few thoughts

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Think you guys are on a good path with the pan car class to try and lower cost and complexity and I'd like to play but there just isn't enough time in a raceday to race twice and marshal twice and pit at least once - no time left for wrenching,.
.....we want you to run pan too.....im sure we can help you with your marshall duties.....I have spair time when diffs and clutches aren't exploding....( we know you don't get around as good as the old days).....running 2 cars is very hard.......think I tried once last year and gave it up in 5 minutes.........[/QUOTE]

First, now that I've got most of the engine probs fixed on the Edam and not as many probs with the clutch, it's basically maintenance free (for how I drive, anyways) and I don't have to spend as much time on it...freeing me up to play with pan.

Second.....Rick.....I'll cheerfully get my decrepit rear out there and turn marshall extra for you. Join the dark side and have some fun with us, knock my car around and cackle about it for old times sake (or hook me up and take Lon out)....if nothing else, take a day off from 4wd and play a little....

Lastly....thanx a BUNCH, Matt. Got that fiberglass/carbon/whatever the hell it is stuff in today and it is sweet! Also cost effective, I can easily make five chassis out of that piece, it was 60 bucks including shipping (and they shipped it overnight as well.) Really good quality stuff, easy to work with, took 1/4 pound off and it has great flex. I honestly thought when I went in search of the stuff it'd be a nosebleed cost-wise, especially given the stuff on Ebay, but this stuff is a steal! Being able to punch out a chassis for about 12 bucks is about as economical as it can get. Many, many thanx.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:59 PM   #2715
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(If you don't think nitro on road is dying, Look at the MWS history on the site. Notice the number of entrants and the number of cities that have held races over the years. While there are certainly pockets of popularity left, overall there are fewer opportunities to race...

Don't know about dying but certainly on life support We are very lucky that Toledo turned into a magnet location for the few of us that enjoy the hobby , heck two Saturdays ago Steve Lazarus came over from Chicago just for practice - I even asked and he had no other mission.
Think you guys are on a good path with the pan car class to try and lower cost and complexity and I'd like to play but there just isn't enough time in a raceday to race twice and marshal twice and pit at least once - no time left for wrenching, just think that without manufacturer / importer / local hobby shop support you're pushing sand uphill - maybe Phil's efforts with EDAM will be fruitful.
you can run mine whenever you want, I agree phil has a good shot at attracting new racers. as for pushing sand up hill I prefer BB stacking
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