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Old 05-06-2013, 07:25 PM   #2686
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Congratulations, on you guys finally getting to run! Race Report?

Did you get beaten by the "FrankenMonsters"? What happened with your clutch? Assume it was the Moto....

On the Vintage Pan Car Front:
I have a clutch solution 80% taken care of! (I hope!) Using off-road or Moto style clutch and 9 to 12 tooth gears!!!

Thought I had a source for spur gears but price was out of sight! Any luck with the gear company you found? May have to learn to make them! (Or get Rick to run off 100 or so )

Finishing up a complete car, hope to bring it up to the MWS!
Made the first run and the rubber rear tires weren't getting sufficient traction, so I moved to foam on the rear. All in all, the car didn't handle too badly, the biggest issue I had was the crappy engine I had on it which wouldn't hold a tune nor run consistently. I didn't find the weight disadvantage to be much of a problem...

I got Matt to run the main since I wasn't up to it, and found that once again, I'd forgotten to loc-tite a few items...I'd thought the diff went belly up when in fact the main drive axle couplings had worked loose. That, and he thought it didn't have enough steering on the front so we put foams on it and then he thought it had way too much steering...so we brought it in and took some caster out (which is pretty bloody easy on our build.)

Matt ran the car and did rather well, passing a few cars and turning out respectable laps, until the engine finally had enough and gave up the ghost. Thanx again, Matt.....

As it stands, I probably won't be driving 4wd at the MWS in Toledo. I have a better engine (I think) and will be ordering up another engine tomorrow for the pan, plus I'm going back through the car and fixing the various small problems. In spite of the weight and general lack of flex in the chassis due to all aluminum build, I thought it did VERY well its first time out...my opinion may be biased, but I had the advantage of seeing it both as a driver and from the pits. Absolutely nothing broke on the car that was not due to either my crappy old leftover engine or poor setup on my part....I may be optimistic but I think it'll be a contender, and the car did take a few pretty good whacks.

Another good eye opener was the center diff that Matt had on his car. For some reason, it failed, but it's clearly the way to go in a pan build using belt style drive. I have an old Serpent Excel that I'm going to gut for parts, and I'll be recommending to Edam that they build something along those lines. It looks convenient and easy to set up, and should be inexpensive as well. After the MWS race, we'll be looking at lightening it up a tad, but I suspect that's the basic issue we'll be making more of by later this year, for sale, if anyone wants one. I'd also like to propose full approval of the Rick Davis "BC Rule," which is that any car weighing 6.5 pounds gets to keep two speed!
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:29 PM   #2687
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I agree great cars, a big salute too phil and matt for the success of there home brew cars. win or not few people can say they built there own car. also thanks again phil for help with the clutch so I can return too the class and not get beat like a circus monkey trying too run my 4wd. possible run at the mws if I can get things together. I think we should get some pics of our vintage bods for the web site. anyone else get a sun burned neck yesterday?
Not a problem, I'm happy to help. A lot of the Edam parts are interchangable with other cars, which still makes me wonder if they aren't all made in the same factory with different names stamped on them. The Edam 3 shoe clutch seems to work really well and God knows it's cheap enough. I think it's gonna be a good year for pan....
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:50 AM   #2688
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I agree great cars, a big salute too phil and matt for the success of there home brew cars. win or not few people can say they built there own car. also thanks again phil for help with the clutch so I can return too the class and not get beat like a circus monkey trying too run my 4wd. possible run at the mws if I can get things together. I think we should get some pics of our vintage bods for the web site. anyone else get a sun burned neck yesterday?
I have to agree with Joe 100%! I hope Matt can over come his problem as his car looked sweet on the track. Phils car looked good for having the wrong tires and a tired motors. While T-Bone had slipped a ball diff into his P8C, few noticed the fine install cause it ran so well. My car ran good but clearly the older body does not work as well. There are choices to be made. while the body alone will not get me up to Joe, it'll help.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:39 AM   #2689
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I have to agree with Joe 100%! I hope Matt can over come his problem as his car looked sweet on the track. Phils car looked good for having the wrong tires and a tired motors. While T-Bone had slipped a ball diff into his P8C, few noticed the fine install cause it ran so well. My car ran good but clearly the older body does not work as well. There are choices to be made. while the body alone will not get me up to Joe, it'll help.
So now you are going back to running modern bodies??? And getting new cars! What's next, a two speed kit and 4wd?

I think it's time to do some serious thinking about how I spend my time and money...I hear the Factory Five calling
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:27 AM   #2690
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
I have to agree with Joe 100%! I hope Matt can over come his problem as his car looked sweet on the track. Phils car looked good for having the wrong tires and a tired motors. While T-Bone had slipped a ball diff into his P8C, few noticed the fine install cause it ran so well. My car ran good but clearly the older body does not work as well. There are choices to be made. while the body alone will not get me up to Joe, it'll help.
... Just say no to the modern bodies.... We don't want
or need an arms race in pan like 4wd...... Can't find a viable
Pulley online for my POS.... Maybe take an old Serpent pulley
and make a spool in the back....car had to much steering anyway...
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:37 AM   #2691
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... Just say no to the modern bodies.... We don't want
or need an arms race in pan like 4wd...... Can't find a viable
Pulley online for my POS.... Maybe take an old Serpent pulley
and make a spool in the back....car had to much steering anyway...
Matt,
I talked to Lon about your diff pully problem. Shoot me some pics of what happened....I might have some parts/ideas!
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:05 AM   #2692
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
... Just say no to the modern bodies.... We don't want
or need an arms race in pan like 4wd...... Can't find a viable
Pulley online for my POS.... Maybe take an old Serpent pulley
and make a spool in the back....car had to much steering anyway...
I have boxes of nip serpent vector parts. If you know the part numbers of stuff you may need, send me a pm and I will look to see if I have them.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:27 PM   #2693
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Not a problem, I'm happy to help. A lot of the Edam parts are interchangable with other cars, which still makes me wonder if they aren't all made in the same factory with different names stamped on them. The Edam 3 shoe clutch seems to work really well and God knows it's cheap enough. I think it's gonna be a good year for pan....
ned, on my clutch it was the flywheel near end of last year. on the edam clutch looks good but no inst. like getting it from IKEA looks like mws a go for me as well saving the gt1 bod for club races
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #2694
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I have to agree with Joe 100%! I hope Matt can over come his problem as his car looked sweet on the track. Phils car looked good for having the wrong tires and a tired motors. While T-Bone had slipped a ball diff into his P8C, few noticed the fine install cause it ran so well. My car ran good but clearly the older body does not work as well. There are choices to be made. while the body alone will not get me up to Joe, it'll help.
hey p8c guys I think I have a solution for our front arms. I just need help with some nylon stock. pieces need too be 1*2*3/8 thick. I can't get too the place till my week off after mws race. so if you happen too have something kickin around it would help. so between the arms and joes ball diff fix we should be ok.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:05 PM   #2695
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So now you are going back to running modern bodies??? And getting new cars! What's next, a two speed kit and 4wd?

I think it's time to do some serious thinking about how I spend my time and money...I hear the Factory Five calling
EASY FOR YOU TO SAY, you're hundreds of miles away from having to eat T-Bone's dust!
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:43 PM   #2696
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EASY FOR YOU TO SAY, you're hundreds of miles away from having to eat T-Bone's dust!
I know!!
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:45 PM   #2697
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hey p8c guys I think I have a solution for our front arms. I just need help with some nylon stock. pieces need too be 1*2*3/8 thick. I can't get too the place till my week off after mws race. so if you happen too have something kickin around it would help. so between the arms and joes ball diff fix we should be ok.
Joe, Thought of you when I saw this:

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-7293_435881166505808_1950827462_n.jpg
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:56 AM   #2698
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Hi Guys

I am hoping to make it to the Midwest at least once this summer to run with you dudes. Hopefully you all can confirm that there will be a Pan Car race at the Great Lakes Challenge?

With respect to all of you, I wish to share my thoughts on the body issue:

Personally I do not see what is wrong with modern bodies. They are readily available and not expensive and if one's taste isn't there, then a guy can always run an old style body. Whatever works best for performance and personal preference.

My attitude is that giving everyone the choice to run what they wish will be more inclusive and will encourage people who may try the class. I mean, we shouldn't be telling a new guy who is on the fence: "You cannot go down to the hobby shop and grab a 1/8 body to run." This is not going to help us. it is too confusing for a newbie to the class, and too limiting for those who want to run what they have and what they like.

I do not wish to tell a fellow racer: "You have to run xyz body because of reason xyz, and furthermore, you may have to get it that body from Europe in a group order or you may have to buy a vintage body from a guy over here or there..."

In fact, I think a rule for having to run a vintage style body is more of an "Arms Race" than having the body specification open. BECAUSE: The term Arms Race implies that the product or part in question carries with it a price-prohibitive aspect. And allowing that item in the class will suppress participation because it creates a barrier to entry for a racer. Again, in this case the opposite is true. When discussing the body, it is cheaper and easier to allow people to use whatever body they choose. Unlike the chassis, the body is regularly replaced and relatively disposable, so there is no issue about having to stay current with the technology: We put a new body on the car more frequently that a new body is released to the market. It is not more expensive for the racer, and may in fact be cheaper.

Believe me, i of all people appreciate the original gear: the look feel and style. But to help make this a great class why say no to things that are working perfectly well in France and Italy for their 1/8 Classique racers?

Of course the rules that help control the class are important, most notably: 1. No suspension, and 2. One speed. I do not see anyone making a threat to those basic guidelines and those are the rules that prevent an arms race.

Unlike the suspension and one-speed rules, why should we tell people they can't run a body or engine of choice? I do not foresee a body arms race because any 1/8 body arms race already exists for 1/8 open class, so we can use all the r&d they do and just spend the $28 bucks for the body. I doubt there will be a 2wd pan car specific body arms race. And if it were to become a problem, a spec could be indicated for the class but again this seems like a non-problem from my perspective.

For those of you who are concerned about the styling, this is a different issue. This concern goes all the way back to the slot car racers and early RC racers from the 60's. I know this has been discussed earlier so there is no need to explain. if we get too concerned about requiring the cars to all look the same, we may paint ourselves into a lonely corner.

I assume we want this to be a racing class and not just an antique concours event. If it gets so controlled in this regard it could very easily be a vintage car demonstration rather than a race. Which is fine, but its different.

In Japan they now have vintage "meetings" where they gather together and cruise their vintage restoration rides. Its a laid back affair, and not a race per say. Its also cool, BUT LETS BE CLEAR, it is NOT what is happening with 1/8th Classique Racing in Europe.

In the end, racing 2wd pan cars with as few rules as possible seems to me the best chance to have a class that grows and endures. It is a compromise that allows each of us to bring our own approach to the table and collectively participate in an ever-evolving category that started in the 60's and has been changing all the while.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:03 AM   #2699
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Hi Guys

I am hoping to make it to the Midwest at least once this summer to run with you dudes. Hopefully you all can confirm that there will be a Pan Car race at the Great Lakes Challenge?

With respect to all of you, I wish to share my thoughts on the body issue:

Personally I do not see what is wrong with modern bodies. They are readily available and not expensive and if one's taste isn't there, then a guy can always run an old style body. Whatever works best for performance and personal preference.

My attitude is that giving everyone the choice to run what they wish will be more inclusive and will encourage people who may try the class. I mean, we shouldn't be telling a new guy who is on the fence: "You cannot go down to the hobby shop and grab a 1/8 body to run." This is not going to help us. it is too confusing for a newbie to the class, and too limiting for those who want to run what they have and what they like.

I do not wish to tell a fellow racer: "You have to run xyz body because of reason xyz, and furthermore, you may have to get it that body from Europe in a group order or you may have to buy a vintage body from a guy over here or there..."

In fact, I think a rule for having to run a vintage style body is more of an "Arms Race" than having the body specification open. BECAUSE: The term Arms Race implies that the product or part in question carries with it a price-prohibitive aspect. And allowing that item in the class will suppress participation because it creates a barrier to entry for a racer. Again, in this case the opposite is true. When discussing the body, it is cheaper and easier to allow people to use whatever body they choose. Unlike the chassis, the body is regularly replaced and relatively disposable, so there is no issue about having to stay current with the technology: We put a new body on the car more frequently that a new body is released to the market. It is not more expensive for the racer, and may in fact be cheaper.

Believe me, i of all people appreciate the original gear: the look feel and style. But to help make this a great class why say no to things that are working perfectly well in France and Italy for their 1/8 Classique racers?

Of course the rules that help control the class are important, most notably: 1. No suspension, and 2. One speed. I do not see anyone making a threat to those basic guidelines and those are the rules that prevent an arms race.

Unlike the suspension and one-speed rules, why should we tell people they can't run a body or engine of choice? I do not foresee a body arms race because any 1/8 body arms race already exists for 1/8 open class, so we can use all the r&d they do and just spend the $28 bucks for the body. I doubt there will be a 2wd pan car specific body arms race. And if it were to become a problem, a spec could be indicated for the class but again this seems like a non-problem from my perspective.

For those of you who are concerned about the styling, this is a different issue. This concern goes all the way back to the slot car racers and early RC racers from the 60's. I know this has been discussed earlier so there is no need to explain. if we get too concerned about requiring the cars to all look the same, we may paint ourselves into a lonely corner.

I assume we want this to be a racing class and not just an antique concours event. If it gets so controlled in this regard it could very easily be a vintage car demonstration rather than a race. Which is fine, but its different.

In Japan they now have vintage "meetings" where they gather together and cruise their vintage restoration rides. Its a laid back affair, and not a race per say. Its also cool, BUT LETS BE CLEAR, it is NOT what is happening with 1/8th Classique Racing in Europe.

In the end, racing 2wd pan cars with as few rules as possible seems to me the best chance to have a class that grows and endures. It is a compromise that allows each of us to bring our own approach to the table and collectively participate in an ever-evolving category that started in the 60's and has been changing all the while.
Jason, Well said! The bottom line is, these cars are a blast to race. The idea of these cars looking different then 4wd has always been so the spectators not think they are seeing a slow 4wd. The fast body running is perhaps a 5 year old one left behind by 4wd. They're cheap and out there. I'm running 70s and 80s bodies and loving it thou I give up a little to an 05 body. I have to choose, do I change to go fast and have less fun or have a bunch of fun and eat some dirt. Dirt don't taste so bad! We are trying to avoid the super (thingy) bodies being brought into the 4wd today. If the new guy shows up with one, there is no problem. As you have pointed out they get replaced and the next time, he'd better under stand our point. It's the guy that's out to kick butt, we went him here for sure, but we went him to work within the same guide lines as everyone else. If you know your way around a track, you know what bodies we don't went!
LETS RACE SOME MORE!!
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:16 AM   #2700
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By the way, we look forward to meeting you! You sound to be of the same stuff as the rest of us. I'd like to think that's "COOL" stuff!
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