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Old 04-30-2013, 07:57 PM   #2656
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I've just gotten done beating my head soundly with a large hammer and feel much better now.

For the time being, I'm still asking Edam to come up with a diff. I'm almost scared to have any other silly ideas so I'll be thinking them through rather strongly before I mention them to Edam and leave them wondering just what kind of person they are dealing with.

If we didn't have a rule against it, I'd have a rather easy solution...a few years ago, we were playing with a T-Maxx and I got the bright idea of making it four wheel steer (and yes, you can do that on a two channel setup, just piggy the one into the other but reversed.) It was incredible...would turn on a dime and had no problems with it tracking straight either. I could easily convert an Edam into a four wheel steer, which would pretty much end any turning issues, but the rules are against that and I doubt too many people would be very keen on the idea anyway.

I could also modify my front end and put the brakes there without any real trouble. I'd have to change the front hub mounting blocks, install the front drive axles, and mount an Edam brake assembly Thorp style, laying down, but it'd work. The problem with that idea, however, is it'd add more weight up front (which would probably be a good thing for handling purposes.) I think I'll have a quick look at that tomorrow, just to satisfy my engineering curiosity....
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:04 PM   #2657
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Like I said in a post to Matt, before you can design a car, you need to set your goals.

1) Modern Pan (Moto Type)
a) Compete on equal terms and produceable for sale (gear diff, double ratio reduction, etc.)
b) Matt/Phil Type/one-off/prototype (FrankinModern, some off the shelf parts, some custom)

2) Vintage Pan (Associated 300/Delta XXX Type)
a) Deluxe (Diff, Disk Brake, adjustable front end caster, chamber, etc
b) Basic (no diff, clutch band brake, simple front end with little or no adjustment)

All types need to use "modern Wheels/Tires".

The main issues remain clutch, gears, diff (if used).

Check out these pics of old cars on Flickr, for some ideas and insight on the "good old days"! Joe P. mentioned that the cars were simplier before the availibility of CNC maching and these pics show what he's talking about.




When I started I got a $100 Dynamic Sidewinder and soon wanted a Delta. Didn't have the money so I built copies with a hack saw, files and a drill press that use a 1/4 inch hand drill! I added Delta wheels, clutch, gears, and servo saver! Can't come close to that today!!
I'm having Edam work on the Moto type because frankly they can do it cheaper and quicker than I can. My biggest hope is that they can produce one RTR for about the same price as I can buy an RTR 4wd (about 300 bucks.) Their 4wd RTR is strictly newbie material, it's not competitive and really isn't meant to be so...which is why, for another 75 bucks, you can buy the upgrade kit to get what I have now once you've learned to stop bouncing off things that don't move. If they could produce a pan car RTR for 300 bucks, I'd commit to buying five and put at least three in the local hobby shop.

I've built my prototype, if it works and others want one, I'll make those.

I'm committed to making new SuperJ's, the only difference being that they'll take the new tires. I'm doing this last option just because I want to, I hold no illusions that they'd be particuarly popular or sell well, I just hate that there is no American company making cars, and it's an hommage thing.
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:05 PM   #2658
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(Shit.)

(How did I manage to get my head so far up my own ass.)
Don't feel bad Phil. I built a diff a couple of weeks ago and when I was almost done and checking it out I realized that I attached the diff side wheel to the axle instead of the hub! So I had a straight axle with lots of useless parts inbetween the ends....

Do something, even if it ends up not working the way you planned!
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:10 PM   #2659
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I've just gotten done beating my head soundly with a large hammer and feel much better now.

For the time being, I'm still asking Edam to come up with a diff. I'm almost scared to have any other silly ideas so I'll be thinking them through rather strongly before I mention them to Edam and leave them wondering just what kind of person they are dealing with.

If we didn't have a rule against it, I'd have a rather easy solution...a few years ago, we were playing with a T-Maxx and I got the bright idea of making it four wheel steer (and yes, you can do that on a two channel setup, just piggy the one into the other but reversed.) It was incredible...would turn on a dime and had no problems with it tracking straight either. I could easily convert an Edam into a four wheel steer, which would pretty much end any turning issues, but the rules are against that and I doubt too many people would be very keen on the idea anyway.

I could also modify my front end and put the brakes there without any real trouble. I'd have to change the front hub mounting blocks, install the front drive axles, and mount an Edam brake assembly Thorp style, laying down, but it'd work. The problem with that idea, however, is it'd add more weight up front (which would probably be a good thing for handling purposes.) I think I'll have a quick look at that tomorrow, just to satisfy my engineering curiosity....
Front brakes would have some advantages, but I think you'd still need rears too. FYI: Pretty sure they are not legal either....

Simple solution might be gyro's!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:23 PM   #2660
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Or just give up the ghost and run GT....ooo, I think I just felt my nose grow...I'd go back to 1/8th buggy first...
..HELL NO..GT is a dumbed down open car.........with the same expense....
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #2661
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I'm committed to making new SuperJ's, the only difference being that they'll take the new tires. I'm doing this last option just because I want to, I hold no illusions that they'd be particuarly popular or sell well, I just hate that there is no American company making cars, and it's an hommage thing.
..And that's the main issue I think.........finding donuts is like looking for dinosaur bones......ain't gonna happen.........BSR blew me off.........must be awesome to have so much business you tell potential customers to go blow themselves....

American companies???....what's this you speak of???.......We have machinists all around an no one can produce a whole car???with half the parts being sourced from 4WD kits?.......man I need a freakin mill
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:49 PM   #2662
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..And that's the main issue I think.........finding donuts is like looking for dinosaur bones......ain't gonna happen.........BSR blew me off.........must be awesome to have so much business you tell potential customers to go blow themselves....

American companies???....what's this you speak of???.......We have machinists all around an no one can produce a whole car???with half the parts being sourced from 4WD kits?.......man I need a freakin mill
cost prohib to design program fixture and run to sell what a couple? i would love to have my old 3 axis running parts all day its not the machine that cost its the design and programing time now if somebody want to supply a real print or dxf or dwg autocad file ok then might have something for someone to work with some way to generate real numbers to program by or even a hard part to measure off of. the first part in any batch is the hard one
example a custom mount i had to do for a neighbor of mine 7 days to generate a real print then design and make 3 fixtures to hold it plus programming on the fly to make the first part and 2 hours of machine time for the second part after the first one was done so 72 hours to make 2 parts i would of rather of made 10 or 20 once it was up and running because then it gets reasonable cost wise
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:34 AM   #2663
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cost prohib to design program fixture and run to sell what a couple? i would love to have my old 3 axis running parts all day its not the machine that cost its the design and programing time now if somebody want to supply a real print or dxf or dwg autocad file ok then might have something for someone to work with some way to generate real numbers to program by or even a hard part to measure off of. the first part in any batch is the hard one
example a custom mount i had to do for a neighbor of mine 7 days to generate a real print then design and make 3 fixtures to hold it plus programming on the fly to make the first part and 2 hours of machine time for the second part after the first one was done so 72 hours to make 2 parts i would of rather of made 10 or 20 once it was up and running because then it gets reasonable cost wise
Which is probably why I'll wind up sitting on unsold kits. Additionally, Edam has asked me for any drawing I might have.....drawings?? I think I failed at coloring within the lines many years ago and have not improved since. I made three sets of front axles blocks before I was happy with it, I had trouble matching the pic in my head to what I was actually making in front of me. I tried to do it as well as possible, if I get the parts where I want them, then when I take it to another shop to have them make duplicates, they won't have to correct all my errors. I find myself wishing I'd either taken a drafting course or as a machinist....we can weld and fabricate, we've done a bunch of it over the years, but the small stuff can kill you.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:37 AM   #2664
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cost prohib to design program fixture and run to sell what a couple? i would love to have my old 3 axis running parts all day its not the machine that cost its the design and programing time now if somebody want to supply a real print or dxf or dwg autocad file ok then might have something for someone to work with some way to generate real numbers to program by or even a hard part to measure off of. the first part in any batch is the hard one
example a custom mount i had to do for a neighbor of mine 7 days to generate a real print then design and make 3 fixtures to hold it plus programming on the fly to make the first part and 2 hours of machine time for the second part after the first one was done so 72 hours to make 2 parts i would of rather of made 10 or 20 once it was up and running because then it gets reasonable cost wise
Thus is the reason I'm trying to get a consensus on what should be built. I believe a "Vintage" car (Assoc 300ish) could be built for half the cost of a "Hybrid" Modern Belt drive using "mostly 4wd parts". I would like someone to get a price list of "off the shelf" parts they feel would work and then we can sketchout the parts needed to complete it.

I see the advantage of a more basic car would have vastly fewer and simpler parts and since more parts could be made specifically for this car and in a batch of 10 to 20 spares would be available.

BUT, could we sell 20 of them in say 6 months??

I have a line on some gears and a possible solution to get the spur gear down in diameter. Also I think I have a couple of buddies who may be able to get me CAD drawings.

?????????????????????????????
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:18 PM   #2665
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Thus is the reason I'm trying to get a consensus on what should be built. I believe a "Vintage" car (Assoc 300ish) could be built for half the cost of a "Hybrid" Modern Belt drive using "mostly 4wd parts". I would like someone to get a price list of "off the shelf" parts they feel would work and then we can sketchout the parts needed to complete it.

I see the advantage of a more basic car would have vastly fewer and simpler parts and since more parts could be made specifically for this car and in a batch of 10 to 20 spares would be available.

BUT, could we sell 20 of them in say 6 months??

I have a line on some gears and a possible solution to get the spur gear down in diameter. Also I think I have a couple of buddies who may be able to get me CAD drawings.

?????????????????????????????
I say simpler. Less expensive. More durable. refine my skills, learn to be less aggressive, then hopefully I'll love it, or Moto will be able to pipeline parts again.

Either way, I want to race on road.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:34 PM   #2666
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there lies the rub the worst part IMO would be and is the diff or spur clutch arrangement thou i do like phil's front end
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:02 PM   #2667
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I am learning that building a low production car has it's challenges. This DFX car is pretty cool but the manual could use some work and hand fitting or modifying everything is the name of the game. Hopefully it will run decent when it's finished. It should be ready for the Toledo MWS race.

Jeff
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:53 PM   #2668
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I am learning that building a low production car has it's challenges. This DFX car is pretty cool but the manual could use some work and hand fitting or modifying everything is the name of the game. Hopefully it will run decent when it's finished. It should be ready for the Toledo MWS race.

Jeff
...curious what needed hand fitting or modifying..????....
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:00 PM   #2669
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I say simpler. Less expensive. More durable. refine my skills, learn to be less aggressive, then hopefully I'll love it, or Moto will be able to pipeline parts again.

Either way, I want to race on road.
If I bought stuff in quantity, I could produce cars more cheaply. I'm planning to incorporate fiberglass/carbon fiber into the pan and servo tray eventually, but right now all I have is aluminum, it's cheap and it's durable. All the aluminum I used is very inexpensive, just the time in punching the pieces out, but if I had the local boys make 'em in quantity, they wouldn't cost all that much. Point being, for someone who already has engine/radio gear, my build wouldn't be too inexpensive for someone else. But when/if Edam builds a car, it will be much cheaper and less durable than mine, but far more durable than a 4wd.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:57 PM   #2670
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I am learning that building a low production car has it's challenges. This DFX car is pretty cool but the manual could use some work and hand fitting or modifying everything is the name of the game. Hopefully it will run decent when it's finished. It should be ready for the Toledo MWS race.

Jeff
Jeff,
My car is the Vortex model but it is very similar. I have a fiberglass main chassis plate and different rear hub layout. I built in a while ago but don't recall any issues. Major re-work of just fitting?
I have been meaning to tell you to be careful when you tighten the clamps that hold the front "axles" in position. One of mine broke, probably because I over tightend it. I was able to make a new set and not pay shipping.
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