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Old 04-30-2013, 09:51 AM   #2641
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Hold the phone there youngn'! FYI some of us have know the pitch of the gears for the old cars all along... The problem just moves from the spur to the pinion. You have to find old school pinions (MRP or Associated) to mate with the 24 Pitch spurs. Where ya gonna get them and are you going to cut off the SG shaft to use the inch bearings or are you going to get pinion stock and now make clutch bells? I don't know about you but I don't like working with steel that much, then brazing, welding or staking the pinion and bell together and hardening it all....AND you still have the problem of the gear ratio vs. tire diameter. GOOD LUCK!!

If you really want to go down this road you have to decide on the compromises to be made. (HINT: You might look for metric gears to mate with the off- road clutch bells.)

It's very easy to go around in circles here. Which type of car are you trying to make and what for? Like Vintage pan to make a new really cheap class. OR a Modern Pan to replace the Motonica made out of parts scrounged from eBay. (I see it now, Joey needs a diff, one's on eBay, he loses the bid to some guy who wants to restore an old MRP lol) OR A Different Modern Pan that will use EDAM parts and what ever it is copied from. Hope all the threads are the same and the parts are strong enough to hold up. OR are you (we) really just screwing around, thinking up, sometimes building stuff just for the hell of it...
I would rather run the direct drive stuff... But the tire issue sux..
so I built the belt car to see if it would work ok...

I have a 3rd idea... Run straight axle with a s smaller spur
connected to a layshaft ... Turn motor around 180 degrees
... You'd get the double reduction and run a rear spur that clears
everything...

But then I would have a header bend issue...

We fix one problem and create 3 more... Lol

I like both belt and direct setups... Phil sounds ready to
Produce new Deltas... Could their bell/ spur setup be done
w/o too much trouble???
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:00 AM   #2642
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..............what do you mean "teeth difference"??...........between the gears attached to the output shafts and the idlers that join them???...wont thicker fluid or grease stop/slow the diffing out?.....more like a spool?.....trying to find a cheap solution for scratch built pan cars....
Exactly! I'm not sure but they should be called sun gears and satellites... like in italian... You cannot really take it out with light oils.

Anyway the problem seem to be bigger here: I'm sorry to read Motonica is dropping the ball, I didn't know. If the choice is between stay home or running off road diffs, well, welcome to off road diffs !!

There is always the good old trick of taking out 2 of the 4 satellites...

If you're going into trouble with finding Moto gear diffs, or building your own one, you could ask Moto if they have the old ball-type differential.... Nobody wanted them anymore when the gear one came out... They may have some old spares. Everything's good in case of parts supply shortage

Have fun
Ciao
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:23 AM   #2643
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I would rather run the direct drive stuff... But the tire issue sux..
so I built the belt car to see if it would work ok...

I have a 3rd idea... Run straight axle with a s smaller spur
connected to a layshaft ... Turn motor around 180 degrees
... You'd get the double reduction and run a rear spur that clears
everything...

But then I would have a header bend issue...

We fix one problem and create 3 more... Lol

I like both belt and direct setups... Phil sounds ready to
Produce new Deltas... Could their bell/ spur setup be done
w/o too much trouble???
I'm there with you, Matt! Too many options, none really great.... I have made/mocked up four or five different types of rear ends but none are that promising.

I've been working on just about what you say about a the all gear drive. Was going to use an off-road diff unit complete. Now I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble. Some off-road headers are straignt (flat) and might be able to be reversed. I moded one for one of these things lol.

Another solution is using 32 pitch gears but they may be too weak. Just need t omake a couple more parts and I can find out!!

The Delta clutch has some good advantages, the main one is you can use really small pinions and probably get a usable ratio and still use the tires up! Down side is again the spurs (need 24p 20pa ~55 tooth, quick calculation) and the rear end needs a support for the outboard bearing and a bigger clutch bell to accomadate the inboard bearing......

Nothing is easy
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:51 PM   #2644
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Hope you're feeling better!
I'm not, unfortunately. Even if rain hadn't sidetracked us, health would've kept me from running last Sunday. I'm planning to be there this Sunday, but if I still feel like this, I won't be running, I'll just try to help out the guys and grab some parts to duplicate. No biggie, I'm not dead yet (tho some would say I've been brain dead for quite a few years......)
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:01 PM   #2645
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I'm there with you, Matt! Too many options, none really great.... I have made/mocked up four or five different types of rear ends but none are that promising.

I've been working on just about what you say about a the all gear drive. Was going to use an off-road diff unit complete. Now I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble. Some off-road headers are straignt (flat) and might be able to be reversed. I moded one for one of these things lol.

Another solution is using 32 pitch gears but they may be too weak. Just need t omake a couple more parts and I can find out!!

The Delta clutch has some good advantages, the main one is you can use really small pinions and probably get a usable ratio and still use the tires up! Down side is again the spurs (need 24p 20pa ~55 tooth, quick calculation) and the rear end needs a support for the outboard bearing and a bigger clutch bell to accomadate the inboard bearing......

Nothing is easy
curious to see if a 32 pitch
would hold up... If life was short I bet they could
be had for so cheap it wouldn't matter...
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:51 PM   #2646
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I'm there with you, Matt! Too many options, none really great.... I have made/mocked up four or five different types of rear ends but none are that promising.

I've been working on just about what you say about a the all gear drive. Was going to use an off-road diff unit complete. Now I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble. Some off-road headers are straignt (flat) and might be able to be reversed. I moded one for one of these things lol.

Another solution is using 32 pitch gears but they may be too weak. Just need t omake a couple more parts and I can find out!!

The Delta clutch has some good advantages, the main one is you can use really small pinions and probably get a usable ratio and still use the tires up! Down side is again the spurs (need 24p 20pa ~55 tooth, quick calculation) and the rear end needs a support for the outboard bearing and a bigger clutch bell to accomadate the inboard bearing......

Nothing is easy
boy are we brain storming. just a thought, do you guys think if there was a car and we put them in a place like pats we could get interest?. if not then the work is just for us, getting a bit nervous from lack of new interest at our club races PS if I remember, the cost of the edam was less than even the p8c.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:07 PM   #2647
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boy are we brain storming. just a thought, do you guys think if there was a car and we put them in a place like pats we could get interest?. if not then the work is just for us, getting a bit nervous from lack of new interest at our club races PS if I remember, the cost of the edam was less than even the p8c.
.maybe Phil can kick Edams ass into high gear to get a pan going...or Phil produces a kit to use Edam knuckles/axles/tank...etc....Buying an Edam kit from Phil with the cost of a few machined parts would probably still be less than a Moto
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:44 PM   #2648
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.maybe Phil can kick Edams ass into high gear to get a pan going...or Phil produces a kit to use Edam knuckles/axles/tank...etc....Buying an Edam kit from Phil with the cost of a few machined parts would probably still be less than a Moto
Or just give up the ghost and run GT....ooo, I think I just felt my nose grow...I'd go back to 1/8th buggy first...
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:44 PM   #2649
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
.maybe Phil can kick Edams ass into high gear to get a pan going...or Phil produces a kit to use Edam knuckles/axles/tank...etc....Buying an Edam kit from Phil with the cost of a few machined parts would probably still be less than a Moto
Edam is still in the design phase, they won't have a product until probably very late this year/early next year. I've already sent them pics of what I've made but for their purposes, it'd probably be cheaper for them to build like a Moto but with my front end (or similar.) But I'm pretty sure they have no diff and would have to design one to fit, everything else would be pretty standard stuff

I can sell Edam 4wd's all day long cheap, but that doesn't help us with the pan....

Some months ago, Rick brought up the idea of getting some kits made up and availible in the local hobby shop for sale. But until we've got a product to mass produce, that's not gonna happen. If my design "pans out" then I'll be more than happy to produce some and make them availible. I suspect parts wouldn't be a problem since anything I make will be over-engineered and thus indestructible, Edam parts could be gotten from me, and the other items got via Ebay for far cheaper than direct from the manufacturer.

My rough estimate of what it's cost me in materials and parts at this point, not including engine and radio, is about 250 bucks. The center drive is a tad expensive (about 60-80 bucks) and I had to buy all the expensive Edam parts (axle shafts, those wretched quick change levers, etc.) But on the plus side, most of that is non-reoccuring, I wonder if anyone has ever broken an axle shaft, and Tom ran the same type gears all last year with little sign of wear. I really like the three shoe Edam clutch, it's less than 20 bucks, all my Edam gears fit it, which means everyone elses gears fit it too, and it meshes perfectly with the Kyosho spurs. But of course, all the savings and durability I have mean nothing till I get it on the track, work out the bugs, and see what it can actually do....let me get that much done, then we'll talk about who wants what and what direction we're going in (if any.)
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:46 PM   #2650
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Or just give up the ghost and run GT....ooo, I think I just felt my nose grow...I'd go back to 1/8th buggy first...
If Tom wasn't running GT, I'd be running it myself. His car is quick, handles really well, and is tough with the upgrades he built and installed. I love driving his car...not so sure I turn better laps with my own stuff than I do his.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:01 PM   #2651
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Ok...this is probably a stupid question, and I have faith that I'll be told so.

Do we need a diff on a pan build similar to a Moto?

Could we instead use one way bearings, much like the front setup on a 4wd?

I just sent another email to my supplier with more tech advice/specs on what we'd need for a pan build, I'm recommending they do something similar in the rear a/la Moto, something like my build for the front...but then it occured to me, all this trouble we're having about diffs, and I was just wondering if we couldn't get the same effect without all the hassle???
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:08 PM   #2652
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Ok...this is probably a stupid question, and I have faith that I'll be told so.

Do we need a diff on a pan build similar to a Moto?

Could we instead use one way bearings, much like the front setup on a 4wd?

I just sent another email to my supplier with more tech advice/specs on what we'd need for a pan build, I'm recommending they do something similar in the rear a/la Moto, something like my build for the front...but then it occured to me, all this trouble we're having about diffs, and I was just wondering if we couldn't get the same effect without all the hassle???
The one way would only work off power, right? If so, that (IMO) would limit it's worth.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:26 PM   #2653
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The one way would only work off power, right? If so, that (IMO) would limit it's worth.
Plus you woudl have no brakes!
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:44 PM   #2654
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Plus you woudl have no brakes!
(Shit.)

(How did I manage to get my head so far up my own ass.)
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:55 PM   #2655
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Default What do you want to accomplish?

Like I said in a post to Matt, before you can design a car, you need to set your goals.

1) Modern Pan (Moto Type)
a) Compete on equal terms and produceable for sale (gear diff, double ratio reduction, etc.)
b) Matt/Phil Type/one-off/prototype (FrankinModern, some off the shelf parts, some custom)

2) Vintage Pan (Associated 300/Delta XXX Type)
a) Deluxe (Diff, Disk Brake, adjustable front end caster, chamber, etc
b) Basic (no diff, clutch band brake, simple front end with little or no adjustment)

All types need to use "modern Wheels/Tires".

The main issues remain clutch, gears, diff (if used).

Check out these pics of old cars on Flickr, for some ideas and insight on the "good old days"! Joe P. mentioned that the cars were simplier before the availibility of CNC maching and these pics show what he's talking about.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/48477846@N03/8418165484/

When I started I got a $100 Dynamic Sidewinder and soon wanted a Delta. Didn't have the money so I built copies with a hack saw, files and a drill press that use a 1/4 inch hand drill! I added Delta wheels, clutch, gears, and servo saver! Can't come close to that today!!
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