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Old 04-29-2013, 11:38 AM   #2626
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
Ned... I have some gear diffs out of a mugen 1/8 buggy... I already
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...

Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
Using off road diffs on pan cars have some drawbacks: they have a very large teeth difference in the internal gears. They tend to be very aggressive, with a lot of punch when they sense the torque. For example a common diff with 10/20 internal gears will kick the car very aggressively.
They tend to be more smooth with a smaller teeth difference. I tried a 10/20 from Xray but immediately went back to a easier 16/12. When there is no teeth difference, the car tends to diff out pretty easy... for example 12/12 gears..


Ciao
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #2627
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Using off road diffs on pan cars have some drawbacks: they have a very large teeth difference in the internal gears. They tend to be very aggressive, with a lot of punch when they sense the torque. For example a common diff with 10/20 internal gears will kick the car very aggressively.
They tend to be more smooth with a smaller teeth difference. I tried a 10/20 from Xray but immediately went back to a easier 16/12. When there is no teeth difference, the car tends to diff out pretty easy... for example 12/12 gears..


Ciao
How much of that can be tuned out with dif fluid? I run 150-200,000k in the moto, but rarely over 3000k in a buggy rear. that's a huge difference.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:55 PM   #2628
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It is a behavior of the gears themselves, you cannot take it out with light oils... it's difficult to explain with words!! They feel the torque when the engine pushes... Those diffs are made to be in a set of 3 on buggys... if you take out the first 2 to race a pan, they don't really feel the same
.... And I didn't mention Orings yet. Off road diffs are very accurately sealed with tight OR. They are very stupid too. You always feel the car ready to spin with those diffs.
The higher the track bite the better they become, of course.

The Moto, like WRCs, BPs, and the majority of (fast) pans have straight gears..... there must be a reason...

Only Mantuas and some french cars have conical gears.
Mantua has the possibility to change the internals. You can chose 12/12, 16/12, 20/12. Which is a very interesting feature, if you've never played with internal ratios to see what is what. Nevertheless only 16/12 works good. The others are too extreme on both sides.

The fact that you feel better your Moto (straight gears) with heavy oils it's the direct consequence of the mild mechanical push of those diffs. With conicals we hardly rise over 60000...

Ciao
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:02 PM   #2629
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Originally Posted by Flygio View Post
Using off road diffs on pan cars have some drawbacks: they have a very large teeth difference in the internal gears. They tend to be very aggressive, with a lot of punch when they sense the torque. For example a common diff with 10/20 internal gears will kick the car very aggressively.
They tend to be more smooth with a smaller teeth difference. I tried a 10/20 from Xray but immediately went back to a easier 16/12. When there is no teeth difference, the car tends to diff out pretty easy... for example 12/12 gears..


Ciao
..............what do you mean "teeth difference"??...........between the gears attached to the output shafts and the idlers that join them???...wont thicker fluid or grease stop/slow the diffing out?.....more like a spool?.....trying to find a cheap solution for scratch built pan cars....
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:14 PM   #2630
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It is a behavior of the gears themselves, you cannot take it out with light oils... it's difficult to explain with words!! They feel the torque when the engine pushes... Those diffs are made to be in a set of 3 on buggys... if you take out the first 2 to race a pan, they don't really feel the same
.... And I didn't mention Orings yet. Off road diffs are very accurately sealed with tight OR. They are very stupid too. You always feel the car ready to spin with those diffs.
The higher the track bite the better they become, of course.

The Moto, like WRCs, BPs, and the majority of (fast) pans have straight gears..... there must be a reason...

Only Mantuas and some french cars have conical gears.
Mantua has the possibility to change the internals. You can chose 12/12, 16/12, 20/12. Which is a very interesting feature, if you've never played with internal ratios to see what is what. Nevertheless only 16/12 works good. The others are too extreme on both sides.

The fact that you feel better your Moto (straight gears) with heavy oils it's the direct consequence of the mild mechanical push of those diffs. With conicals we hardly rise over 60000...

Ciao
Thanks for the info. Never thought that the diffs woud react differently. We don't want to make diffs! Moto has appearently got out of the pan business for now at least and are not supporting the cars they have sold. There don't seem to be any other pans imported.

Do you know of any diffs that would fit the Moto P8C? We have at least one guy with no diff!!

Some of us are messing around trying to scratch build something for fun but others are trying to fill the gap caused by not having cars available.

It's a great class, but the lack of cars and support may prevent it's growth. Unfortunately Gas on-road is all but dead in the USA, there are only a relative few pockets of racing and some of us believe this class may help.

Thanks for you comments!
Ned
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:19 PM   #2631
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Thanks for the info. Never thought that the diffs woud react differently. We don't want to make diffs! Moto has appearently got out of the pan business for now at least and are not supporting the cars they have sold. There don't seem to be any other pans imported.

Do you know of any diffs that would fit the Moto P8C? We have at least one guy with no diff!!

Some of us are messing around trying to scratch build something for fun but others are trying to fill the gap caused by not having cars available.

It's a great class, but the lack of cars and support may prevent it's growth. Unfortunately Gas on-road is all but dead in the USA, there are only a relative few pockets of racing and some of us believe this class may help.

Thanks for you comments!
Ned
One of the reasons I went with the Kyosho GT diff was its durability. Another was the complete lack of maintenance required. Yet another was cost, I bought two of them off Ebay for 45 bucks.

That said, obviously they won't work in anyone elses build (nyahh take that.) As I said in another post, I have Edam looking into producing a pan car, so we'd have another option, and so we can put kits on shelves in hobby shops (or webpages) and sell 'em to newbies (if we ever get any.)

But if Moto is dropping the ball, and most of the cars extant are Moto, we've got to lend a hand. I don't know squat about it...is it ball style, geared, what...can it be duplicated? Can we identify what pieces of it can be bought off the shelf from someone else and get the other pieces made to help out? I'd be willing to help out with that however I can, I know guys have an investment in time and $$ in their cars and there's usually a way around things, I hate to see people sidetracked due to a lack of parts. Aside from that, in a pinch, it seems to me that Moto pan could at least be run as a straight axle, and given the similarities between cars, I'd bet Edam parts would fit...keep 'em moving around the track till we come up with a better fix. I hear what you're saying about how we don't want to make diffs..but I'm already committed to making some Delta diffs and I wouldn't mind seeing what it'd take to get some Moto diffs made as well.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:11 PM   #2632
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That said, obviously they won't work in anyone elses build (nyahh take that.) As I said in another post, I have Edam looking into producing a pan car, so we'd have another option, and so we can put kits on shelves in hobby shops (or webpages) and sell 'em to newbies (if we ever get any.)

But if Moto is dropping the ball, and most of the cars extant are Moto, we've got to lend a hand. I'd be willing to help out with that however I can, I know guys have an investment in time and $$ in their cars and there's usually a way around things, I hate to see people sidetracked due to a lack of parts..
...I agree....i dont think we're opposed to making diffs..its making diffs that take forever to produce and cost a ton..........there has to be a way to get Tuttle fixed....(did he ever find parts)....shame on Motonica...everyone brainstorming will fix it.....
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:54 PM   #2633
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...I agree....i dont think we're opposed to making diffs..its making diffs that take forever to produce and cost a ton..........there has to be a way to get Tuttle fixed....(did he ever find parts)....shame on Motonica...everyone brainstorming will fix it.....
If no one has a spare diff to fit and hook him up, I'd be willing to take his diff and see if either I can dupe or or have it done...and hell, he can always fire up the MRP he has! (And truth be told, the MRP had one of the best diffs around.)
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:28 PM   #2634
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...I agree....i dont think we're opposed to making diffs..its making diffs that take forever to produce and cost a ton..........there has to be a way to get Tuttle fixed....(did he ever find parts)....shame on Motonica...everyone brainstorming will fix it.....
Joe has one of Lon's difs...
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:49 PM   #2635
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Joe has one of Lon's difs...
..cool..
now all we need is SUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:51 PM   #2636
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Associated used 24 Pitch 20 degree pressure angle (cut enough of the damn things for alternate ratio's for RC500's ) pretty sure Delta was the same..
.good to know for sure......now the hunt for cheap (ish) spur gears
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:58 AM   #2637
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.good to know for sure......now the hunt for cheap (ish) spur gears
Hold the phone there youngn'! FYI some of us have know the pitch of the gears for the old cars all along... The problem just moves from the spur to the pinion. You have to find old school pinions (MRP or Associated) to mate with the 24 Pitch spurs. Where ya gonna get them and are you going to cut off the SG shaft to use the inch bearings or are you going to get pinion stock and now make clutch bells? I don't know about you but I don't like working with steel that much, then brazing, welding or staking the pinion and bell together and hardening it all....AND you still have the problem of the gear ratio vs. tire diameter. GOOD LUCK!!

If you really want to go down this road you have to decide on the compromises to be made. (HINT: You might look for metric gears to mate with the off- road clutch bells.)

It's very easy to go around in circles here. Which type of car are you trying to make and what for? Like Vintage pan to make a new really cheap class. OR a Modern Pan to replace the Motonica made out of parts scrounged from eBay. (I see it now, Joey needs a diff, one's on eBay, he loses the bid to some guy who wants to restore an old MRP lol) OR A Different Modern Pan that will use EDAM parts and what ever it is copied from. Hope all the threads are the same and the parts are strong enough to hold up. OR are you (we) really just screwing around, thinking up, sometimes building stuff just for the hell of it...
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:06 AM   #2638
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If no one has a spare diff to fit and hook him up, I'd be willing to take his diff and see if either I can dupe or or have it done...and hell, he can always fire up the MRP he has! (And truth be told, the MRP had one of the best diffs around.)
Joe doesn't have "His" MRP, I do! Must have felt bad cause I couldn't find one. He does have a LON diff but that gives Lon a usless car. And new MRP rubber is non-existant! So the MRP car will be difficult to run also.

If this was easy the (FILL IN THE BLANK) would do it!
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:25 AM   #2639
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One of the reasons I went with the Kyosho GT diff was its durability. Another was the complete lack of maintenance required.
The deal here is that Flyigo has said the off-road diff won't work well in on road cars. I assume the Kyosho diffs you have are off-road diffs...I guess it has to do with the internal gear ratios. Kinda makes sense when you look at the difference in the diameter (radius) of the off-road tire vs. the on-road tire. A lot more leverage.....?

That said, obviously they won't work in anyone elses build (nyahh take that.)
They probably could be able to be modded to "fit". The new information on diffs make me wonder how far to go down this path....

But if Moto is dropping the ball, and most of the cars extant are Moto, we've got to lend a hand. I don't know squat about it...is it ball style, geared, (GEAR TYPE w/ SPPUR GEARS) what...can it be duplicated? SURE Can we identify what pieces of it can be bought off the shelf from someone else and get the other pieces made to help out? Probably, it is possible that other Modern Pan diffs could drop right in BUT they are all sourced overseas. I'd be willing to help out with that however I can, I know guys have an investment in time and $$ in their cars and there's usually a way around things, I hate to see people sidetracked due to a lack of parts. Aside from that, in a pinch, it seems to me that Moto pan could at least be run as a straight axle, Lon has the solid rear axle from Moto's 4wd, there may be parts available in the US if not Europe. Should everybody take out their diffs to be fair? and given the similarities between cars, I'd bet Edam parts would fit...keep 'em moving around the track till we come up with a better fix. I hear what you're saying about how we don't want to make diffs..but I'm already committed to making some Delta diffs and I wouldn't mind seeing what it'd take to get some Moto diffs made as well.
Joe is working on getting the gears from another car and getting them into the MOTO diff case.....
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:08 AM   #2640
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One of the reasons I went with the Kyosho GT diff was its durability. Another was the complete lack of maintenance required. Yet another was cost, I bought two of them off Ebay for 45 bucks.

That said, obviously they won't work in anyone elses build (nyahh take that.) As I said in another post, I have Edam looking into producing a pan car, so we'd have another option, and so we can put kits on shelves in hobby shops (or webpages) and sell 'em to newbies (if we ever get any.)

But if Moto is dropping the ball, and most of the cars extant are Moto, we've got to lend a hand. I don't know squat about it...is it ball style, geared, what...can it be duplicated? Can we identify what pieces of it can be bought off the shelf from someone else and get the other pieces made to help out? I'd be willing to help out with that however I can, I know guys have an investment in time and $$ in their cars and there's usually a way around things, I hate to see people sidetracked due to a lack of parts. Aside from that, in a pinch, it seems to me that Moto pan could at least be run as a straight axle, and given the similarities between cars, I'd bet Edam parts would fit...keep 'em moving around the track till we come up with a better fix. I hear what you're saying about how we don't want to make diffs..but I'm already committed to making some Delta diffs and I wouldn't mind seeing what it'd take to get some Moto diffs made as well.

Hope you're feeling better!
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