R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-27-2013, 02:28 PM   #2596
Tech Addict
 
Farmer_John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 597
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
See what happened, Joe? We let Lon talk us out of the VIntage Pan cars and into the Motonica's and end up talking about 300's again....

Should have known

I would be so satisfied if Associated were to jump back into and support on road. Never have had any issues with their parts support.
__________________
RCHOTPIT.COM...now alive...
Farmer_John is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 04:25 PM   #2597
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 574
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer_John View Post
I would be so satisfied if Associated were to jump back into and support on road. Never have had any issues with their parts support.
the best part of the 300 is they were made before a lot of the high tech mach. was common. so parts are easier too make. my goal- 1, be able too use modern wheels 2, available brake parts 3, available front end parts(steering blocks). if it works out i'll make extra parts for others. clutch may be a sticking point.
__________________
who cares what the kardashians are doing
5italkart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 04:28 PM   #2598
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,125
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default Associated or ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer_John View Post
I would be so satisfied if Associated were to jump back into and support on road. Never have had any issues with their parts support.
You might think there would be enough demand for Thunder Tiger (I believe they own Associtated) to build a 300BD as an inexpensive entry into 1/8 0n-road. Lord knows the manfacturers make plenty of odd-ball vehicles now.

Guess that shows how little interest there is in the branch of the R/C hobby we happen to want to run. It was sure easier at the beginning of this hobby (1970) than it is now to figure out what to run! Might have something to do with the fact that there was only one scale, one type of power, and a handful of manafacutrers, who were pretty much all in the USA!!!
aarcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 05:06 PM   #2599
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,125
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default Associated Clone

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5italkart View Post
the best part of the 300 is they were made before a lot of the high tech mach. was common. so parts are easier too make. my goal- 1, be able too use modern wheels 2, available brake parts 3, available front end parts(steering blocks). if it works out i'll make extra parts for others. clutch may be a sticking point.
Joe here is my take. I have been working on this design for a couple of years and keep getting stuck in the same places. I'll try to get you some parts and drawings if you are interested. Some compromises will need to be made to be able to pull this together but I am willing to help. I have some ideas and possible connections to get a kit like this built but it will take some doing!!


Modern wheels are no problem, Even I've made the adapters! (For the front and rear.) The issue is the Bal Diff axle and gears. (if you can eliminate the diff, you only need to find gears. (CNC lathe would be best way to make axle parts.)

Brake Parts are also not an issue. I've made them with a hole saw out of G-10 in 1/8th and 1/16th inch thick. Shoes are steel, SS or hardend is best with two holes. Even had two disks and three shoes!

Front end is where I deviate from Associated. Nothing against their front end but Phil's favorite Delta is much simpler to make. It's a 1/2" aluminum bar with king pins sticking up at each end and two holes to hold it down. It can be drilled or milled for lightness or looks. Caster can be milled into the mounting or angled shims can be used. Camber is a little trickey, you can drill the KP holes at the angle you want, bend them, or make a more complicated front end... I have a really simple steering block design, two piece like Associated but with trailing caster and a metric axle so you can just put bearings in the modern wheels and bolt them on. Much lighter than Associated too.

Clutch and gears are the biggest issues, to me, along with the diff. Using and off-road clutch would be fine but you need at least a 12 tooth or smaller imo. Remember without the belt reduction the spur has to be bigger to get a decent ratio, around 5:1 is the best I can figure out how to get.
I have some 12t bells but they don't seen to be very common. You can make bells with pinion stock and machine the gear to mate with the bell, it probably should be steel and hardened.
There is still the problem of the spur. I have not been able to find any industrial gears in the range needed...
aarcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 06:32 PM   #2600
Tech Addict
 
Farmer_John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 597
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Joe here is my take. I have been working on this design for a couple of years and keep getting stuck in the same places. I'll try to get you some parts and drawings if you are interested. Some compromises will need to be made to be able to pull this together but I am willing to help. I have some ideas and possible connections to get a kit like this built but it will take some doing!!

Clutch and gears are the biggest issues, to me, along with the diff. Using and off-road clutch would be fine but you need at least a 12 tooth or smaller imo. Remember without the belt reduction the spur has to be bigger to get a decent ratio, around 5:1 is the best I can figure out how to get.
I have some 12t bells but they don't seen to be very common. You can make bells with pinion stock and machine the gear to mate with the bell, it probably should be steel and hardened.
There is still the problem of the spur. I have not been able to find any industrial gears in the range needed...
I've found a source for 13t, mod1 bells that fit the Associated three shoe clutch. What size spur and is there a way to isolate the spur from the dif? That way an adapter can span from the spur to one side of the dif. I would think then the size of the ball dif could be built no larger or heavier than need be. I would also think that dif rings, balls and ball disc (as it would no longer be a spur) would be easier to build and maintain.
__________________
RCHOTPIT.COM...now alive...
Farmer_John is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 07:35 PM   #2601
Tech Addict
 
hitcharide1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 651
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to hitcharide1
Default Hm

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Joe here is my take. I have been working on this design for a couple of years and keep getting stuck in the same places. I'll try to get you some parts and drawings if you are interested. Some compromises will need to be made to be able to pull this together but I am willing to help. I have some ideas and possible connections to get a kit like this built but it will take some doing!!


Modern wheels are no problem, Even I've made the adapters! (For the front and rear.) The issue is the Bal Diff axle and gears. (if you can eliminate the diff, you only need to find gears. (CNC lathe would be best way to make axle parts.)

Brake Parts are also not an issue. I've made them with a hole saw out of G-10 in 1/8th and 1/16th inch thick. Shoes are steel, SS or hardend is best with two holes. Even had two disks and three shoes!

Front end is where I deviate from Associated. Nothing against their front end but Phil's favorite Delta is much simpler to make. It's a 1/2" aluminum bar with king pins sticking up at each end and two holes to hold it down. It can be drilled or milled for lightness or looks. Caster can be milled into the mounting or angled shims can be used. Camber is a little trickey, you can drill the KP holes at the angle you want, bend them, or make a more complicated front end... I have a really simple steering block design, two piece like Associated but with trailing caster and a metric axle so you can just put bearings in the modern wheels and bolt them on. Much lighter than Associated too.

Clutch and gears are the biggest issues, to me, along with the diff. Using and off-road clutch would be fine but you need at least a 12 tooth or smaller imo. Remember without the belt reduction the spur has to be bigger to get a decent ratio, around 5:1 is the best I can figure out how to get.
I have some 12t bells but they don't seen to be very common. You can make bells with pinion stock and machine the gear to mate with the bell, it probably should be steel and hardened.
There is still the problem of the spur. I have not been able to find any industrial gears in the range needed...
The original Delta front end worked well and was durable. I will reproduce this when I repro the car later this year.

However, I'm happy with the front end I've built. I took the Delta 1/12 front end and revamped it....one round main axle, the two mount blocks are drilled, then sliced so caster is got by loosening the two screws and setting it wherever you like...no need to change blocks, the round stock is a common size, and I think I bought four feet of the stuff for two bucks. The half inch plate I got to make blocks out of cost me about 20 bucks.

Obviously, the Delta didn't have adjustable camber and I really wanted to incorporate that. It only required making the hub mount, fitting it to the main axle, and then applying the hub. It seems to me since the cars are mostly the same, a person could use Edam hubs, Serpent, Mugen...whatever fits and makes the racer happy. And since it's such a common part among manufacturers, we don't have to worry about one of them getting out of the business and then cars sitting for lack of parts. I get what you're saying about square stock and kingpin, it's as simple and durable as it can get, but I think my build is fairly durable and allows for a wide range of modification with very little wrenching. And obviously I'll be making my build lighter down the road so what it'll gain in tweak it won't lose in weight. One of the things I like best about it is I've got my rims level with the pan, so when I run foams, I can run them nearly to the rim without dragging the chassis.

When I do make it to the machine shop, I'm going to take a few Delta and MRP gears and get a quote as to how much for how many...soon as I have a baseline on cost I'll report back on that and see who needs gears made....
__________________
The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes. The average response time of a .357 is 1400 feet per second.
hitcharide1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 07:40 PM   #2602
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,125
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default Interesting....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer_John View Post
I've found a source for 13t, mod1 bells that fit the Associated three shoe clutch. What size spur and is there a way to isolate the spur from the dif? That way an adapter can span from the spur to one side of the dif. I would think then the size of the ball dif could be built no larger or heavier than need be. I would also think that dif rings, balls and ball disc (as it would no longer be a spur) would be easier to build and maintain.
I think a 13 tooth bell is really marginal. Back in the day, with way weaker and lower revving engines, we were running 11/60 or so which is 5.45. It would be very difficult to get to 5:1 with a 13 tooth. It would take a 65 tooth spur and that would be very close to the same diameter as the tires. You would probably have to specify the gear ratio for everybody.
A spur gear in the area of 60 tooth would be close, using an 11/12/13 bell but with so few teeth there are big jumps. I don't know how the motors would like being over geared that much....60 tooth is about 2.5" dia. so you have to watch the tire wear. I think going to the belt reduction may have had something to do with getting the gear dia. down as well as other advantaages. Might be able to go to a 32pitch gear and maybe a smaller motor like a OS .18, since the car will be so lite, but that opens up another can or two of worns...

Right now I don't know what the spur would look like. I can only assume it would be similar to the Associated. Depending on the gear and hub, mods may have to be made to accommodate and a seperate diff unit may work. The biggest problem I see is the the Associated type ball diff is very narrow, there really is not much space to make it wider. Remember the gear and the brake have to be connected. That's why that type of diff is so good.

Drilling 8 holes in a plastic gear isn't to hard....

How do we press/connect the diff washer drive plate in minimal thickness on a hardened axle, so it never moves?

Keep the ideas coming!!!
aarcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #2603
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,125
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default Prototype Front Axle Mock-up

I finished up a mock-up front end tonite. The part that the tie rod bolts to is kydex but I'll get some CF to use. A collar or nut, with or without a spring will hold the steering block in place.
This type of front used to work great, today...who knows?!?!

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-1.jpg

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-2.jpg

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-4.jpg

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-5.jpg

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class-6.jpg
aarcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 10:34 PM   #2604
Tech Master
 
Taylorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Monclova, Ohio
Posts: 1,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
I finished up a mock-up front end tonite. The part that the tie rod bolts to is kydex but I'll get some CF to use. A collar or nut, with or without a spring will hold the steering block in place.
This type of front used to work great, today...who knows?!?!

Attachment 1061514

Attachment 1061515

Attachment 1061516

Attachment 1061517

Attachment 1061518
nice work Ned......I was thinking of a Trinity Revolver type front end.......

The bottom pillow ball could screw into a fixed block attached to the chassis......the more or less replicate the link setup......both caster and camber adjustments done with one wrench......

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4284/p1000075w.jpg
__________________
Current stable... Team Associated SC8, Team Associated RC250 X 3
Tamiya F104X1...Tamiya F104W GP Edition...BMT/RC300 Frankenstein.....Edam Razor2
Checkers or Wreckers......................................................................................
Taylorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 10:38 PM   #2605
Tech Master
 
Taylorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Monclova, Ohio
Posts: 1,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
I think a 13 tooth bell is really marginal. Back in the day, with way weaker and lower revving engines, we were running 11/60 or so which is 5.45. It would be very difficult to get to 5:1 with a 13 tooth. It would take a 65 tooth spur and that would be very close to the same diameter as the tires. You would probably have to specify the gear ratio for everybody.
A spur gear in the area of 60 tooth would be close, using an 11/12/13 bell but with so few teeth there are big jumps. I don't know how the motors would like being over geared that much....60 tooth is about 2.5" dia. so you have to watch the tire wear. I think going to the belt reduction may have had something to do with getting the gear dia. down as well as other advantaages. Might be able to go to a 32pitch gear and maybe a smaller motor like a OS .18, since the car will be so lite, but that opens up another can or two of worns...

Right now I don't know what the spur would look like. I can only assume it would be similar to the Associated. Depending on the gear and hub, mods may have to be made to accommodate and a seperate diff unit may work. The biggest problem I see is the the Associated type ball diff is very narrow, there really is not much space to make it wider. Remember the gear and the brake have to be connected. That's why that type of diff is so good.

Drilling 8 holes in a plastic gear isn't to hard....

How do we press/connect the diff washer drive plate in minimal thickness on a hardened axle, so it never moves?

Keep the ideas coming!!!
Right Ned......the 13 is marginal on a direct drive......I was running 11/63 ratio on my 300 to get the need pop off the corners. when my 11T bell died even going to a 12 killed the punch...it was a dog with no legs off the corners..not good..........as soon as rear tires wore down even a tiny the spur is ready to grab asphalt.............Both Phil and myself set up our pans so the bottom of the rear rims are about even with chassis bottom......run the foam till its gone!!!!!!!!
__________________
Current stable... Team Associated SC8, Team Associated RC250 X 3
Tamiya F104X1...Tamiya F104W GP Edition...BMT/RC300 Frankenstein.....Edam Razor2
Checkers or Wreckers......................................................................................
Taylorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 10:51 PM   #2606
Tech Addict
 
hitcharide1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 651
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to hitcharide1
Default Hm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
Right Ned......the 13 is marginal on a direct drive......I was running 11/63 ratio on my 300 to get the need pop off the corners. when my 11T bell died even going to a 12 killed the punch...it was a dog with no legs off the corners..not good..........as soon as rear tires wore down even a tiny the spur is ready to grab asphalt.............Both Phil and myself set up our pans so the bottom of the rear rims are about even with chassis bottom......run the foam till its gone!!!!!!!!
Looks like Ned got a SuperJ front axle built pretty well. And yes, I've got both front and rear rims level with the pan, since too much ground clearance was never a problem way back and shouldn't be now, especially when we can compensate with camber/caster, even rear tow if needed. I still have hopes the rubber tires will get the job done but I planned for foam as well. I almost went the same way as Ned, but I would have had to make the complete hub in order to have enough room at the top to mount a link bar, and make the bottom a simple pin mount, plus would have needed different camber blocks. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could have gone that route and made it just as easily adjustable but I didn't think it through at the time and really wanted to incorporate the Edam parts since I have so many of them. I do have changes planned tho...the Motonica setup with the pivot in the middle when chassis flex isn't enough, I think I have a way figured out for that and will get it in the works soon.
__________________
The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes. The average response time of a .357 is 1400 feet per second.
hitcharide1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:28 AM   #2607
Tech Master
 
Taylorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Monclova, Ohio
Posts: 1,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Looks like Ned got a SuperJ front axle built pretty well. , I could have gone that route and made it just as easily adjustable but I didn't think it through at the time and really wanted to incorporate the Edam parts since I have so many of them. I do have changes planned tho...the Motonica setup with the pivot in the middle when chassis flex isn't enough, I think I have a way figured out for that and will get it in the works soon.
...many ways to skin a cat....and that was my thinking also when I started mine...use as many off the shelf 4wd parts as a I could so spares would
be readily available......Looks like it will be easier to get parts for my scratch than
the Motonicas....amazing that they don't want to support this car..........l want to come up with my own front end with the edam/hubs axles...etc....with all the adjustments of a 4WD......and OH YEAH.I love rain......we EVER going to get to run???
__________________
Current stable... Team Associated SC8, Team Associated RC250 X 3
Tamiya F104X1...Tamiya F104W GP Edition...BMT/RC300 Frankenstein.....Edam Razor2
Checkers or Wreckers......................................................................................
Taylorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 11:38 AM   #2608
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,125
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
...many ways to skin a cat....and that was my thinking also when I started mine...use as many off the shelf 4wd parts as a I could so spares would
be readily available......Looks like it will be easier to get parts for my scratch than
the Motonicas....amazing that they don't want to support this car..........l want to come up with my own front end with the edam/hubs axles...etc....with all the adjustments of a 4WD......and OH YEAH.I love rain......we EVER going to get to run???
Good points all. We're really looking at different things tho. I'm trying to work on something cheap and simple, that you don't have to relay on others for part and pieces. The "Modern Pans" you guys are building would be difficult and expensive to duplicate, imo. Where do you get BMT and obsolete Kyosho parts when you need 'em? lol In order to stay simple you have to give up on adjustments and stuff.
Got another idea for the rear....
aarcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 01:02 PM   #2609
Tech Addict
 
hitcharide1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 651
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to hitcharide1
Default Meh

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Good points all. We're really looking at different things tho. I'm trying to work on something cheap and simple, that you don't have to relay on others for part and pieces. The "Modern Pans" you guys are building would be difficult and expensive to duplicate, imo. Where do you get BMT and obsolete Kyosho parts when you need 'em? lol In order to stay simple you have to give up on adjustments and stuff.
Got another idea for the rear....
I agree and I don't agree. The front and back body mounts are irrelevant...anyones stuff can be made to work. Same with front and rear hubs, there are enough manufacturers out there and I went with a "one size fits all" plan, so if Edam disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, I could still use Serpent, Kyosho, Mugen, Motonica, and so forth. As for the drive train, there are at least five manufacturers all making the same basic item! There are three routes to go....build it so tough that it'll never break (and give up some speed and cost), build it with interchangeability in mind (gain in savings) or build your own (and be a modeller as well as a racer.) There are arguments in favor of all three, and all three can be fun. We'll need a better plan for the newbies, should we ever get any, but we're in good shape for the time being I think.....
__________________
The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes. The average response time of a .357 is 1400 feet per second.
hitcharide1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #2610
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 574
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
I finished up a mock-up front end tonite. The part that the tie rod bolts to is kydex but I'll get some CF to use. A collar or nut, with or without a spring will hold the steering block in place.
This type of front used to work great, today...who knows?!?!

Attachment 1061514

Attachment 1061515

Attachment 1061516

Attachment 1061517

Attachment 1061518
looks good, so far I've raised the rear height for more tire life and started on the brakes. rainy sundays helps. yes lets all pool our info. i'm trying too use as many ready made parts as I can, let someone else do the r&d
__________________
who cares what the kardashians are doing
5italkart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 05:27 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.0