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Old 10-17-2012, 11:23 AM   #2101
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[QUOTE=Rick Davis;11336172]
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First, who is this Pat fellow of whom you speak....

Pat is Pat Falgout (probably just butchered the spelling - oh well) from the local hobby shop that used to right in the mall but is now about a mile west in another mall.
K...throw me his phone number and I'll discuss it with him. I could let him have an Edam or two on consignment as well next spring if he likes, or maybe hook him up with a distributorship (tho I'd have to discuss prices with him to make sure I don't undercut him.) This is a hobby to me but it's probably his livelihood to him. I don't mind undercutting Mugen and such, it's really a different market anyhow (like some guys who ran MRP because they either couldn't afford or just didn't like Delta) but I'd never want to take business away from a local guy.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:49 AM   #2102
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No matter how good your project turns out I still think the key to getting new racers is to have cars & parts sitting in Pat's shop so that interested people can look and decide and then go back for parts the same day not wait for them to come from timbuktu , if you truly are passionate about the project consider offering to put a car and some parts on his shelf on consignment.
Unfortunately Rick, the same has to be said with the only currently US available pan, the P8c. If it were not for Lon having a large box full of parts, many of my race days would have been cut tragically short. And not to call Garen out, but he doesn't stock every part, all the time for these.

I'll go one step further. The same can be said about ANY of the cars we compete with every Sunday. Does Pat stock parts for any of our cars? Not even that he should. Just trying to make a non aggressive sounding counterpoint.

Here's what I believe to be the ugly truth. Want to see on road grow? Have Thunder Tiger and Horizon Hobbies get behind it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #2103
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Unfortunately Rick, the same has to be said with the only currently US available pan, the P8c. If it were not for Lon having a large box full of parts, many of my race days would have been cut tragically short. And not to call Garen out, but he doesn't stock every part, all the time for these.

I'll go one step further. The same can be said about ANY of the cars we compete with every Sunday. Does Pat stock parts for any of our cars? Not even that he should. Just trying to make a non aggressive sounding counterpoint.

Here's what I believe to be the ugly truth. Want to see on road grow? Have Thunder Tiger and Horizon Hobbies get behind it.
Getting anything off the ground is a pain, and the big manufacturers probably won't get into the market until it's already thriving. I already knew that, like Lon, to get Edam going I'd have to invest in a bunch of parts and drag 'em around. Sort of taking one for the team. And I don't mind doing it, I'm not real concerned if I make money so much as lose money, plus Tom has to make a buck for his time. End result is I'll have to back my own play and see what happens. I think the Edam will fly because I'm undercutting EVERYBODY else on 4wd. I HOPE pan will get going again because it fills a service that 4wd can't. Right now we have a Midwest thing going, and it's going well....I thought pan had good representation on the track, especially for a first year trial, and I figured that if we could put another pan on the track at a competitive price it may get others to drive pan as well. But what Rick says applies, at least locally, and he's right that I'll have to support it full force just like Lon did with his. Maybe sometime next year we can post an email or two to manufacturers and see about them getting involved, but we need more people driving them first, and then I wonder what the markup from Horizon would be, and would they price it as expensive as 4wd? I'm willing to sell at cost to help the hobby, but I can't see a major distributor doing it. Here's another thought...would they even be interested in doing so? We're trying to build a fast tank, something that breaks rarely, and even when it does, doesn't cost an arm and leg to fix. I don't know if, in this day and age, that any manufacturer would do that because it may cost them more than they like to produce, plus they'll sell less parts if it doesn't break as often. We're definitely on the leading edge at this point with no clear idea how it'll wind up, but I'll do what I can to help, and we're going to try to have some FUN with it no matter how things turn out. And puttering with little toy cars in the sun is always fun...lol.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #2104
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:26 PM   #2105
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Originally Posted by Farmer_John View Post
Unfortunately Rick, the same has to be said with the only currently US available pan, the P8c. If it were not for Lon having a large box full of parts, many of my race days would have been cut tragically short. And not to call Garen out, but he doesn't stock every part, all the time for these.

I'll go one step further. The same can be said about ANY of the cars we compete with every Sunday. Does Pat stock parts for any of our cars? Not even that he should. Just trying to make a non aggressive sounding counterpoint.

Here's what I believe to be the ugly truth. Want to see on road grow? Have Thunder Tiger and Horizon Hobbies get behind it.
John, I have to agree with you 100%, On-Road needs a BIG manufacturer behind it to grow and unfortunately that is not all. Take a look at electric on-road. It's all but dead in most areas of the country also. There is no shortage of cars, from $100 Sukuri's to $500 X-Ray's. Down here we have a great track that has not been used in a year while off-road is going great and oval is holding it's own.
If it wasn't for local guys supplying parts at good prices and "sponsorships" for a number of racers, there would be even fewer guys running gas on-road IMHO...

Your earlier point about "instant gratification" is another big issue. Maybe someone could buy a few cheap on-road cars (used? EDAM?) and make them ready to runs (radio, painted body and all) and have them forsale at Pat's or at the track. There have to be lots of stuff around that would be a good "starter set-up", ready to go for nubies.

In a related subject, the pan class is really not growing outside Toledo and is pretty much only holding it's own "here". In the Midwest Series there are maybe 2 or 3 racing Pan that do not belong to the Toledo Club. From what I can tell, there were 12 scheduled Club races in Toledo this season and points were given for 10 of them ( 2 rainouts?). Lon ran in all 10, Joe P., Noah, and Joe T. ran 8, with III in 6, and Phil running in 5. 13 drivers total ran at least one race.
THis may be off a bit as I can't be sure if some races were run with a GT or a Pan, like for Tom...

Well I really don't know what all this means except that those still running gas on-road are a special breed, and pan car racers are even special-er!! :-)

Last edited by aarcobra; 10-17-2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Corrected error
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:45 PM   #2106
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Default Good Luch with that!!!

I'll bet that car would last about 1 lap on the track!! All the suspension arms appear to be aluminum, pretty thin at that! Hit one board and talk about TWEEK!
That's one of the problems I see with making a "scratch built" car. Aluminum is available and relatively easy to work with but to get it light it has to be properly machined and then is subject to bending and breaking. Suppose that's why nearly all of the suspension parts on factory cars are "engineering plastics" made to be strong enough to retain shape but will usually break without taking a set.
The only way to keep a car made with very much aluminum light and strong enough is to make it very simple=Vintage Pan car with direct drive, no belts, shafts, adjustable caster/camber...
Now the question is: can a DD Car be competitive with the Modern Pan? IF it can be competitive, there just might be a chance to get some cheap 1/8th scale on-road cars produced. Too bad 1/10 scale gas pan doesn't have any interest/following. I really think those could be made pretty easily because there are tires, diffs. etc. available for electrics that would work. And talk about bodies!! there are ton's of cool bodies out there!!

Just talking....;-)
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:49 PM   #2107
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John, I have to agree with you 100%, On-Road needs a BIG manufacturer behind it to grow and unfortunately that is not all. Take a look at electric on-road. It's all but dead in most areas of the country also. There is no shortage of cars, from $100 Sukuri's to $500 X-Ray's. Down here we have a great track that has not been used in a year while off-road is going great and oval is holding it's own.
If it wasn't for local guys supplying parts at good prices and "sponsorships" for a number of racers, there would be even fewer guys running gas on-road IMHO...

Your earlier point about "instant gratification" is another big issue. Maybe someone could buy a few cheap on-road cars (used? EDAM?) and make them ready to runs (radio, painted body and all) and have them forsale at Pat's or at the track. There have to be lots of stuff around that would be a good "starter set-up", ready to go for nubies.

In a related subject, the pan class is really not growing outside Toledo and is pretty much only holding it's own "here". In the Midwest Series there are maybe 2 or 3 racing Pan that do not belong to the Toledo Club. From what I can tell, there were 12 scheduled Club races in Toledo this season and points were given for 10 of them ( 2 rainouts?). Lon ran in all 10, Joe P., Noah, and Joe T. ran 8, with III in 6, and Phil running in 5. 13 drivers total ran at least one race.
THis may be off a bit as I can't be sure if some races were run with a GT or a Pan, like for Tom...

Well I really don't know what all this means except that those still running gas on-road are a special breed, and pan car racers are even special-er!! :-)
Edam DOES sell an RTR, my cost about 300 bucks. It's no frills, built heavier, cheap engine, 27 radio, and rubber tires. They also sell a hop-up kit for said car, I forget the price, which converts it to a Razor2. I suppose this means, in theory, someone could probably hit the track with under 500 in the entire shooting match, and it's supposedly more durable but of course not as quick as what I currently run.

On the flip side, not counting my spares (which I got mostly for Dave but also to cover my own butt) I had 300 in the car, 60 in the radio/servos, 85 in my first engine...blah blah, I had right around 550 in the whole shooting match when I made my first race. If someone could keep it out of the boards, there wouldn't be much profit to going the RTR route unless one decided they didn't want to stay in racing after the initial run.

When I talk to Pat, I'll see what he might have interest in stocking for sale. The more I think on it, the more what Rick said may make sense...having the stuff on hand ready to sell when the customer is ready to buy vs. them having time to think it over/discuss it with the wife (never goes well).
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:33 PM   #2108
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Edam DOES sell an RTR, my cost about 300 bucks. It's no frills, built heavier, cheap engine, 27 radio, and rubber tires. They also sell a hop-up kit for said car, I forget the price, which converts it to a Razor2. I suppose this means, in theory, someone could probably hit the track with under 500 in the entire shooting match, and it's supposedly more durable but of course not as quick as what I currently run.

On the flip side, not counting my spares (which I got mostly for Dave but also to cover my own butt) I had 300 in the car, 60 in the radio/servos, 85 in my first engine...blah blah, I had right around 550 in the whole shooting match when I made my first race. If someone could keep it out of the boards, there wouldn't be much profit to going the RTR route unless one decided they didn't want to stay in racing after the initial run.

When I talk to Pat, I'll see what he might have interest in stocking for sale. The more I think on it, the more what Rick said may make sense...having the stuff on hand ready to sell when the customer is ready to buy vs. them having time to think it over/discuss it with the wife (never goes well).
Interesting. Probably wouldn't want to race the "Cheap" EDAM aganist even used "regular" cars but that's the idea. I think that's what John means by "instant gratification". Buy it all in one box, ready to go.
If there was a "restricted" class with alot less power, it might have a better chance. I think as long as you have to buy a bunch of parts (car,radio,engine, body, and assemble, paint, etc. the market of today is not too interested. MAYBE R-T-R would help?!?! There just aren't enough "modelers"/"hobbiests" around, unfortunately. We are a throw-away society: Buy it, try it, repeat....with someother "toy of the month". IMHO....

Look at the rest of the RC Car Hobby. SCT's are hot, 2wd and 4wd. 1/8th buggies electric and some gas (about the only place gas is run "in the mainstream"). Other than that there are a bunch of "splinter groups" like electric on-road, TC's (of multiple varieties), 1/12 scale pan, 1/10 scale pan, F1, 1/8 GTE, and running off-road stuff on road. Oval, mostly pan and off-road. Rock Crawlers. Bashers. And Gas on road like 1/8th 4wd, 1/8th pan, 1/8th GT, and 1/10 Sedan,. Oops don't forget Masters in some! My point is that there are so many classes and types of racing going on nubies seem to be attracted to what appears to be cheap, easy, and available. Instant gratification.
It will be very difficult to attract racers to gas on-road. We need to figure something out. Cheaper, easier to get cars. Beginners classes. Racing on another day. Oval Racing. Selling off our old cars real cheaply to guys who "promise" to race them. Practice sessions. Awards to winners on race day, for beginners. .........

I know these are all old ideas that probably won't work. I'm just trying to get a conversation going.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:57 AM   #2109
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Interesting. Probably wouldn't want to race the "Cheap" EDAM aganist even used "regular" cars but that's the idea. I think that's what John means by "instant gratification". Buy it all in one box, ready to go.
If there was a "restricted" class with alot less power, it might have a better chance. I think as long as you have to buy a bunch of parts (car,radio,engine, body, and assemble, paint, etc. the market of today is not too interested. MAYBE R-T-R would help?!?! There just aren't enough "modelers"/"hobbiests" around, unfortunately. We are a throw-away society: Buy it, try it, repeat....with someother "toy of the month". IMHO....

Look at the rest of the RC Car Hobby. SCT's are hot, 2wd and 4wd. 1/8th buggies electric and some gas (about the only place gas is run "in the mainstream"). Other than that there are a bunch of "splinter groups" like electric on-road, TC's (of multiple varieties), 1/12 scale pan, 1/10 scale pan, F1, 1/8 GTE, and running off-road stuff on road. Oval, mostly pan and off-road. Rock Crawlers. Bashers. And Gas on road like 1/8th 4wd, 1/8th pan, 1/8th GT, and 1/10 Sedan,. Oops don't forget Masters in some! My point is that there are so many classes and types of racing going on nubies seem to be attracted to what appears to be cheap, easy, and available. Instant gratification.
It will be very difficult to attract racers to gas on-road. We need to figure something out. Cheaper, easier to get cars. Beginners classes. Racing on another day. Oval Racing. Selling off our old cars real cheaply to guys who "promise" to race them. Practice sessions. Awards to winners on race day, for beginners. .........

I know these are all old ideas that probably won't work. I'm just trying to get a conversation going.
That's half the reason why we're building a pan. Off road is going to do well forever because you don't need a track to have fun, and 4wd is really not for the newbie unless said newbie has a ton of help. Pan, however, being slower, simpler, more durable, and of course cheaper, could get it done. There is no quick fix either way...as we've all said, it's a Midwest thing for now, and it's possible that if we keep doing it, we'll attract interest and it'll catch on, but it's going to take a few years for that to occur. We need to focus on the newbie, the person with less cash, and the person who is tired of constant maintenance/tweak on a 4wd. We are going to be the superstock of old (which is why I think the Indy bodies are a fantastic idea, gives us something no one else is doing to make us stand out more.) Let the fast guys and gearheads gravitate to 4wd, and we get everyone else.

Then again, I know where this hobby was 30 years ago..I know where it is now...and haven't a clue where it will be 30 years from now. For all I know it'll be all about hovercraft...hm...wait a sec....no gear changes! No tires!! Could race it on water, snow, mud, and asphalt!!! Hell, I'm sold already, if anyone has the plans to a flux capacitor I'll get started on a DeLorean 1/8 scale right away! And I'll shop for those really big butterfly nets for turn marshalling....
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:33 AM   #2110
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I'll bet that car would last about 1 lap on the track!! All the suspension arms appear to be aluminum, pretty thin at that! Hit one board and talk about TWEEK!
That's one of the problems I see with making a "scratch built" car. Aluminum is available and relatively easy to work with but to get it light it has to be properly machined and then is subject to bending and breaking. Suppose that's why nearly all of the suspension parts on factory cars are "engineering plastics" made to be strong enough to retain shape but will usually break without taking a set.
The only way to keep a car made with very much aluminum light and strong enough is to make it very simple=Vintage Pan car with direct drive, no belts, shafts, adjustable caster/camber...
Now the question is: can a DD Car be competitive with the Modern Pan? IF it can be competitive, there just might be a chance to get some cheap 1/8th scale on-road cars produced. Too bad 1/10 scale gas pan doesn't have any interest/following. I really think those could be made pretty easily because there are tires, diffs. etc. available for electrics that would work. And talk about bodies!! there are ton's of cool bodies out there!!

Just talking....;-)
always thought 1/10 pan would be cool. i agree someone should work with pat on this.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:32 PM   #2111
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For all your building skills, for all the E-bay parts you've bought, for the parts I've loaned you, why can't you guys get a old pan car to work? Buy it a new motor, Rick was putting new wheels on RC 300 years ago. We've been treated to hints of what they can do. Now you went to make a 1/10 scale car, how cute!
We've got what we need, we just need more of it. Bring us another European pan. A Edam RTR run pan car. (Sorry, 4wd is to complex to make a good RTR). A good strong 1/8th pan program will lead us to an even stronger 1/8th 4wd program. Putting even the cutest of off scale cars out there will split what racers we gave up and make the days longer.
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Old 10-20-2012, 01:03 AM   #2112
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For all your building skills, for all the E-bay parts you've bought, for the parts I've loaned you, why can't you guys get a old pan car to work? Buy it a new motor, Rick was putting new wheels on RC 300 years ago. We've been treated to hints of what they can do. Now you went to make a 1/10 scale car, how cute!
We've got what we need, we just need more of it. Bring us another European pan. A Edam RTR run pan car. (Sorry, 4wd is to complex to make a good RTR). A good strong 1/8th pan program will lead us to an even stronger 1/8th 4wd program. Putting even the cutest of off scale cars out there will split what racers we gave up and make the days longer.
I can get an old pan to work (especially if I upgrade the engine.) But you're overlooking a thing or two. For one, I want the FUN of building my own thing. At last count I've got about 8 Super J's so I'm not doing it because I lack the cars! Next, there's no American manufacturer and somehow that's just wrong. And speaking for me, I have no interest in 1/10 scale...I've got more faith in the eventual resurgence of pan than the continued existence of 1/10.

I'm trying to talk Edam into building an RTR pan now. More than likely, once I've got a prototype that works, they may decide to go with it on a limited basis, but I suspect they'll be like other manufacturers...wait to see an interest before they jump. They are selling the things like hotcakes overseas but this is a new market for them and they'll want to get established in 4wd before they branch out, and I can't blame them for that. Hell, Serpent just jumped into GT and that's been around a good while.

C'mon Lon...let's have a little fun...lol. I always wanted to build a car, something not straight out of a box for a change. Won't cost me much, doesn't look that difficult (famous last words) and if we do a couple of them and get them in the local hobby shop, they may even sell. That said, I was half considering buying a Motonica...not to race, just to have the kit availible to sell trackside in case we do get a newbie that wants to have a crack. Still looks to me like the only way to get new blood in the game is to take one for the team. You've already done your share in that regard and it's time for the rest of us to step up and do something.
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Old 10-20-2012, 03:01 AM   #2113
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It depends ofcourse what electronics are being used but out of curiousity, what is the weight of a 1/8 pan like a Motonica p8c rtr but without the fuel?
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:06 AM   #2114
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For all your building skills, for all the E-bay parts you've bought, for the parts I've loaned you, why can't you guys get a old pan car to work? Buy it a new motor, Rick was putting new wheels on RC 300 years ago. We've been treated to hints of what they can do. Now you went to make a 1/10 scale car, how cute!
We've got what we need, we just need more of it. Bring us another European pan. A Edam RTR run pan car. (Sorry, 4wd is to complex to make a good RTR). A good strong 1/8th pan program will lead us to an even stronger 1/8th 4wd program. Putting even the cutest of off scale cars out there will split what racers we gave up and make the days longer.
Can't get old pan car to work because multiple reasons....1.....tires...I call BSR and the phone jockey on the other end wants me to shoot off an email to John.... And as usual when you send a company an email these days they don't answer... 2...don't have a lathe/ mill to make adapters to fit new rims/ tires... Other wise I think the ole RC300 had moments of promise.. Need to find me a local machine shop ....
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:00 AM   #2115
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For all your building skills, for all the E-bay parts you've bought, for the parts I've loaned you, why can't you guys get a old pan car to work? Buy it a new motor, Rick was putting new wheels on RC 300 years ago. We've been treated to hints of what they can do. Now you went to make a 1/10 scale car, how cute!
We've got what we need, we just need more of it. Bring us another European pan. A Edam RTR run pan car. (Sorry, 4wd is to complex to make a good RTR). A good strong 1/8th pan program will lead us to an even stronger 1/8th 4wd program. Putting even the cutest of off scale cars out there will split what racers we gave up and make the days longer.
no don't want too build a 10th car, just think it would be cool. i'm going too stand back and see what happens and practice practice practice
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