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Old 09-16-2012, 09:34 PM   #1996
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
LOL! You of ALL people! MR. RC 300. You bait me into this pan thing. Then you give up even trying. THEN you tell Phil you are going to scratch build a pan car (I never did believe that one! lol) NOW you want a spec class in 4wd! AFTER I got rid of a great, brand new X-RAY and two perfectly good Kyosho's!!!!!!

Thanks, Buddy!
.........I gave up trying?..........I have no freakin TIRES......I called BSR and the joker that answered the phone said to email John.........I DID...guess what NO RESPONSE!!!!!..........dont know how business's keep their doors open if they just blow off customers................so until my scratch pan is built this winter...its 4WD.........
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:36 PM   #1997
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Today my grandson, Noah Bellville, just plain beat me but only after he out qualified me first. It was a very fun race in which I passed him a half dozen time, he won't let go, passing me back or waiting for me to mess up. Talk about pressure!
GREAT JOB NOAH!!
..does this mean we now need a masters pan clas??..................Good job Noah
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:15 PM   #1998
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I know you guys like to sit in here and talk about how 4wd racers just build a kit and go super fast but that's not really how it works. What I'm about to say is also one of the major pitfalls of our hobby. These current cars are so complex if you don't really understand every aspect of these cars your not going to go fast. You could have your shocks built perfectly with the right pistols, shock oil, just the right amount of rebound, overall shock length, and springs but your droop is off 2mm from side to side and the car is bag of wet dog poo to drive. Lets say you know and understand what all 10 million suspension adjustments do, but you can't set up a clutch. Your still dog slow. I can spend hours on my car and it's a pile of crap soI have to go set back down and figure out how to make it the best I can. I can tell you I rate myself pretty high on the scale of understanding these cars because I have been around them a lot but I know nothing compared to the likes of Rick. So I think the SS class is barking up the wrong tree. You can slow a 4wd car down but its still going to be a complex car . I say stay the course and keep working on building the pan class. Dividing the 4wd class by three is not the answer imho.

P.s. you guys can stop talking down about 4wd guys being a lesser class of racer because they simply build a car from kit. Buying the kit is the only easy part about it. You could take every Capricorn at the track and mix em all up and anyone of us could pick our own car out in 2sec.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:20 PM   #1999
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Good job Noah !!!! Down with the old farts!!......???? Wait am I in the old farts club? My guess is Noah would say yes.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:45 AM   #2000
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Originally Posted by Dasmopar View Post
P.s. you guys can stop talking down about 4wd guys being a lesser class of racer because they simply build a car from kit. Buying the kit is the only easy part about it. You could take every Capricorn at the track and mix em all up and anyone of us could pick our own car out in 2sec.
You been in the 'shine again? There is no "instant gratification" involved in 4wd. I can appreciate the effort that goes into making those cars stick.

What we (and certainly I) have been referring to is the current state of the average "hobbyist" that opens a slash box and goes racing. I have felt this way since returning to the hobby after a decade of playing with bikes. It's this user mentality that will need to be overcome to further on road racing.

I enjoy racing the pan. It's fun, simple and easy to understand. But I can also see it's limitations. There are only so many changes to setup you can do and only so much power you can put down. Everything else is driving clean.

Now, on to another important point. How do roadies attract off roaders and new on road hobbyists into the "sport" (it is sport, within the spirit of competition)? It's not pan car against 4wd. It's all of us united in growing our sport.
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:52 AM   #2001
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Default YOU ARE RIGHT.

The points my boy makes are right, as are Farmers. My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class. This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good). Everything my boy says is there, the work load of 4wd is allot. Cost would be down due to slower speed, less fuel, tires, and breakage. Having a slower place to learn on, offers perhaps more track time, which is a good thing.
That being said, for the second race in a row, our two P8Cs needed no repairs at all. Played with old 4wd tires and Noah is burning up 16% fuel, while life in the Killer "Bs" pit is good, we miss III.
My heros drive 4wd! But I am enjoying simple!
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:19 AM   #2002
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I think everyone is very well aware of the
Work involved in campaigning a 4wd car...but still
Think there is a place for older 4wd cars with
Lesser motors.....I'm at a dead end with
My old 4wd.... No matter what I try I can't get
It to handle exactly as I want....it's crazy hard
Trying to find that last .5-1.0 second...
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:21 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by Dasmopar View Post
I know you guys like to sit in here and talk about how 4wd racers just build a kit and go super fast but that's not really how it works. What I'm about to say is also one of the major pitfalls of our hobby. These current cars are so complex if you don't really understand every aspect of these cars your not going to go fast. You could have your shocks built perfectly with the right pistols, shock oil, just the right amount of rebound, overall shock length, and springs but your droop is off 2mm from side to side and the car is bag of wet dog poo to drive. Lets say you know and understand what all 10 million suspension adjustments do, but you can't set up a clutch. Your still dog slow. I can spend hours on my car and it's a pile of crap soI have to go set back down and figure out how to make it the best I can. I can tell you I rate myself pretty high on the scale of understanding these cars because I have been around them a lot but I know nothing compared to the likes of Rick. So I think the SS class is barking up the wrong tree. You can slow a 4wd car down but its still going to be a complex car . I say stay the course and keep working on building the pan class. Dividing the 4wd class by three is not the answer imho.

P.s. you guys can stop talking down about 4wd guys being a lesser class of racer because they simply build a car from kit. Buying the kit is the only easy part about it. You could take every Capricorn at the track and mix em all up and anyone of us could pick our own car out in 2sec.

Hang on there big boy, don't think you understand the conversation here (at least what I'm trying to say!).

As far as "Instant Gratification" discussion: Open 4wd drive is certainly the ultimate in RC racing! The point Farmer J made and I think is correct is that many potential racers get turned off by exactly what you are talking about: all the work involved to compete. The lack of "RTR" stuff may be why so little new blood gets into 1/8 gas. I think that the complexity and speed of the cars is intimidating and many, as FJ said, are looking for instant gratification and decide it is too much work.

If you are talking about scratch building: my interest is as a hobbiest and modeler. Not trying to make comments at all about 4wd, except that for me it's too fast for me to have fun (personal problem!). (Pan probably is too!) The lesser complexity of the pan type cars allows us to do more modification and scratch building than with the more complex and highly developed 4wd cars. (That is the reason I favor the "Vintage" direct drive cars, but that's another story.)

I do disagree with you on the need for a "SPEC" 4wd class. The pan cars are big in Toledo, but nowhere else in the US that we know of. I know from experience that you do not HAVE to work anywhere as much as you do to have fun with a 4wd car, you just go slower!!!!!!!!!!! There are a great number of good cheap 4wd cars out there, probably 25 times as many as modern pans.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:23 AM   #2004
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You been in the 'shine again? There is no "instant gratification" involved in 4wd. I can appreciate the effort that goes into making those cars stick.

What we (and certainly I) have been referring to is the current state of the average "hobbyist" that opens a slash box and goes racing. I have felt this way since returning to the hobby after a decade of playing with bikes. It's this user mentality that will need to be overcome to further on road racing.

I enjoy racing the pan. It's fun, simple and easy to understand. But I can also see it's limitations. There are only so many changes to setup you can do and only so much power you can put down. Everything else is driving clean.

Now, on to another important point. How do roadies attract off roaders and new on road hobbyists into the "sport" (it is sport, within the spirit of competition)? It's not pan car against 4wd. It's all of us united in growing our sport.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:25 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by Das 1/8th Mopar View Post
The points my boy makes are right, as are Farmers. My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class. This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good). Everything my boy says is there, the work load of 4wd is allot. Cost would be down due to slower speed, less fuel, tires, and breakage. Having a slower place to learn on, offers perhaps more track time, which is a good thing.
That being said, for the second race in a row, our two P8Cs needed no repairs at all. Played with old 4wd tires and Noah is burning up 16% fuel, while life in the Killer "Bs" pit is good, we miss III.
My heros drive 4wd! But I am enjoying simple!


Great job Noah!!! (What happened to III????)
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:26 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
I think everyone is very well aware of the
Work involved in campaigning a 4wd car...but still
Think there is a place for older 4wd cars with
Lesser motors.....I'm at a dead end with
My old 4wd.... No matter what I try I can't get
It to handle exactly as I want....it's crazy hard
Trying to find that last .5-1.0 second...
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:41 AM   #2007
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:57 AM   #2008
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Phil, is this sort of your vision for your home built (minus the Rube Goldberg touches)?

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Old 09-17-2012, 09:59 AM   #2009
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[QUOTE=Das 1/8th Mopar;11219653] My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class.
Lon - I think you should be given full credit for getting the pan class going and keeping it moving - it's just too bad there isn't a car that people could walk into a hobby shop and buy.

This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good).

Think we should use restrictors instead - those little resistors will do too much piston damage going through the motor

Should we consider a 4wd limited class with small carb restrictors and maybe even 16% fuel ?? might it be a transition between pan and open ??
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:43 AM   #2010
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Phil, is this sort of your vision for your home built (minus the Rube Goldberg touches)?

Not too far from it. Our design will be a little cleaner and lowered to the deck, of course...lol, but it's the basic idea. Tom has had zero issues with the Kyosho drive setup so we're going that route, single speed. Aluminum bulkheads forward and aft to couple the Edam hubs onto. Everything else is pretty mickey mouse compared to that, which is why I think it'll be so easy to build, but we're definitely staying with "off the shelf" as much as possible to give more choices for less money.

No, there really aren't any hobby shops backing our play in 2wd or 4wd, certainly no one stop shop or helpline to figure out what a person needs. I'm coming up with a list for anyone who wants Edam and I'll handle all those details, from the newbie to the old hand. I figured, what good is throwing a car at a newbie unless he understands about a bump box, plugs, radio, and all the crap we require to run.

As for pan, the goal (hope) is to build it so strong that practically no parts will be necessary, and we'll have figures drawn up on paper for that as well.

And hey..I'm still looking for this "instant gratification" bs I keep hearing about.
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