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Old 06-24-2012, 06:59 PM   #1666
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I'm a "fed up with off road racing and am changing focus to keep RC racing fresh and exciting" racer. I joined the Toledo club a few weeks ago, but will be one of the odd balls running sedan.

I like the idea and simplicity of 2WD. Not sure if it will be cost effective to jump right in. Just dumping the coin into a used sedan chassis and the support equipment that I didn't own anymore has been a challenge.

But, I am paying attention...
If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know. If I have parts you need and I can spare them, you're more than welcome to them.
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:01 PM   #1667
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Phil, I think your list is way to long and has put everyone to sleep!
It IS way too long and definitely needs pared down. If I had a wife, I have no doubt she'd either be having a yard sale by now or seeing what else nitro can burn.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:39 PM   #1668
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No one else is inquiring...so I will.

Hypothetically, what would you project the cost of one of these repros to be? as far as innards go, do you need a monster steering servo as you would with off road? I would assume a fairly quick +-100in oz throttle brake servo? 3 port? Modernish belt drive, or clutch bell to dif gear? TBAR?

How much water would camparing one of these to a 1/12th scaler hold?

I'll be down on the 1st, be willing to show me what it is?

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We do the best we can with what we have. I gave a "J" to Tom to put together for himself, so if they have enough GT guys to have their own heat, Tom could run both. And I'm putting another together in case Dave (Tom's son) wants to run one as well. I like going fast, don't get me wrong, but for me it's all about turning laps, and if the cars are well matched, they don't have to crack the sound barrier in order to do well and have a good race. I'm seriously considering investing a buck and reproducing the "J", and then reselling it at cost to whoever would like one. I'd make a few changes to make it easier and cheaper for ppl to work with tho. If I make it up on the 1st (and so far it looks like I will) I have some testing to do with some rubber combos plus a straight axle setup. Tom really enjoyed running my "J" at portage and I bet a lot of others would like it to if they gave it a chance...not as fast, but also a LOT easier to set up and more time to relax in between runs!
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:14 AM   #1669
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No one else is inquiring...so I will.

Hypothetically, what would you project the cost of one of these repros to be? as far as innards go, do you need a monster steering servo as you would with off road? I would assume a fairly quick +-100in oz throttle brake servo? 3 port? Modernish belt drive, or clutch bell to dif gear? TBAR?

How much water would camparing one of these to a 1/12th scaler hold?

I'll be down on the 1st, be willing to show me what it is?
I'm hoping to keep the cost down under 300 for a repro Super J. It wouldn't be that high except for the cost of so much aluminum and machining, plus adapting it to run new rims. I'm running el cheapo Futaba servos myself, 11 bucks a pop, and I haven't had a problem yet, tho I did upgrade from the old analog transmitter to 2.4 since I was having connectivity probs. The car I'm currently running has aluminum bulkheads, chassis, servo tray, front axle...what isn't aluminum is steel or heavy nylon, and the only parts that are nylon are the forward servo tray mount and the bumper. It's a tank, but it's a fast tank, so it's good for newbies as well as experienced drivers.

I don't know that much about Motonica, my brief look at it makes me doubt its durability but it seems to do pretty well on the track and I've not heard too many complaints about it. I just don't get the belt drive...if it's 2wd, what's the point, unless it's a question of being able to use parts off the 4wd model to keep production cost down.

My shop partner and I have discussed this off and on the better part of a year now. There is no question that onroad participation is down from what it used to be some years ago. I don't know if it's because there is no newbie car to learn on, or the economy, or the difficulty/technicality of a 4wd, or the huge startup cost plus parts. I think the idea of trying to resurrect 2wd is a really good one (biased tho I may be) because it can be VERY durable, a LOT cheaper, and frankly, the setup is so simple that there's almost no maintenance to be done during an event and not very much in between events. They aren't as quick as 4wd and never will be, but they are still very fast, and an equal field still produces good races.

You can either look up some pics of cars (good ones of mine on Sgrid.com) or show up on the 1st and see my car in person. If we get some free time you can take a lap or two with it as well (remember, durability, I'm not worried if you've driven much or never at all with this car because if it can be broken, we haven't found a way to do so yet.) lol
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #1670
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Belt drive has some pros in my point of view..... for example you can perfectly balance a car with the correct belt lenght and engine layout;... with a direct transmission you are forced to put the engine out of center and very much backwards, and you must use awfully small pinions against big gears.... I always wanted to buy a car with a direct transmission to feel what is like, but failed systematically to cut some money from my racing budget...hahaha!
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:06 AM   #1671
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Hey, I'm a set it and forget it kind of driver and have built enough ball difs that I'm not afraid to do some more. I would guess that the belt drive cars allow the easier use of gear difs, but I'm guessing on that part. I would also believe the belt would allow some "Cush" in the driveline. Again just guessing. Your hypothetical price would seem to be in line, considering the very low volume and the amount of work involved.

I think for my money, I'd be interested in your rig. Please keep me informed.


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I'm hoping to keep the cost down under 300 for a repro Super J. It wouldn't be that high except for the cost of so much aluminum and machining, plus adapting it to run new rims. I'm running el cheapo Futaba servos myself, 11 bucks a pop, and I haven't had a problem yet, tho I did upgrade from the old analog transmitter to 2.4 since I was having connectivity probs. The car I'm currently running has aluminum bulkheads, chassis, servo tray, front axle...what isn't aluminum is steel or heavy nylon, and the only parts that are nylon are the forward servo tray mount and the bumper. It's a tank, but it's a fast tank, so it's good for newbies as well as experienced drivers.

I don't know that much about Motonica, my brief look at it makes me doubt its durability but it seems to do pretty well on the track and I've not heard too many complaints about it. I just don't get the belt drive...if it's 2wd, what's the point, unless it's a question of being able to use parts off the 4wd model to keep production cost down.

My shop partner and I have discussed this off and on the better part of a year now. There is no question that onroad participation is down from what it used to be some years ago. I don't know if it's because there is no newbie car to learn on, or the economy, or the difficulty/technicality of a 4wd, or the huge startup cost plus parts. I think the idea of trying to resurrect 2wd is a really good one (biased tho I may be) because it can be VERY durable, a LOT cheaper, and frankly, the setup is so simple that there's almost no maintenance to be done during an event and not very much in between events. They aren't as quick as 4wd and never will be, but they are still very fast, and an equal field still produces good races.

You can either look up some pics of cars (good ones of mine on Sgrid.com) or show up on the 1st and see my car in person. If we get some free time you can take a lap or two with it as well (remember, durability, I'm not worried if you've driven much or never at all with this car because if it can be broken, we haven't found a way to do so yet.) lol
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:08 PM   #1672
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Belt drive has some pros in my point of view..... for example you can perfectly balance a car with the correct belt lenght and engine layout;... with a direct transmission you are forced to put the engine out of center and very much backwards, and you must use awfully small pinions against big gears.... I always wanted to buy a car with a direct transmission to feel what is like, but failed systematically to cut some money from my racing budget...hahaha!
I've got two ways to go with it. One is to repro the "J"...it's reliable, and all the time I ran one (about 78 to 82) I never had a serious problem with the gears...or anything else for that matter. The only downside at this point is gears, but I've got a company to talk to on making those since I don't have the ability to make gears. We've discussed belt setups and I plan to have nothing to do with them. They do work well, they are smooth...and they are a pain to change, they stretch, etc. One of my goals is extremely low maintenance/easy setup, put it together and run and not worry about it, and I don't see how I can ever do that with a belt drive.

The other option we've discussed is frankenstein-ing it, using a pan of our build, but commercially availible parts, mostly Kyosho GT stuff. The upside to this is pick and choose what you want and bargain for better prices between manufacturers and Ebay. A possible downside is durability, but we think we can get around that with chassis and servo tray design.

My two biggest issues are cost and durability. Something a newbie can drive cheap, but something a pro can tweak and turn good laps with it.

Try buying a Delta off Ebay...I've never seen a model that didn't go for close to 1000 bucks or better. Part of that is history, but a big chunk of that was care and craftsmanship, a quality product that would last practically forever. Whatever we wind up building, that is going to be the standard we shoot for. You can't have fun with a product that falls apart like a crash test dummy every time you so much as glance at a batter board, and most people who've gotten out of 4wd have done so, I believe, partly because of cost, and partly because the setup/maintenance is a huge pain.

Old history...I believe it was the Indy 500 race in 84 (pardon the failing memory.) We'd finished the season prior, and because of work/family, had done nothing at all to the car between the last race of the 83 season and the Indy race...no changes whatsoever...and I won the A main at that race. All credit, so far as I was concerned, went to the car. If there is a product out on the market now like that, I haven't heard of it. Or put another way, the kid fishing with a bamboo pole will have a lot more fun than the guy with 30k in boat and fishing tackle...and if it isn't fun, what's the point? Hobbies are supposed to be stress free (or nearly so).....

Pardon the long rant, didn't mean to drag out the soapbox again....
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:45 PM   #1673
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sorry but I'm not into your racing scene..... maybe things are a bit different there. I tell you this: here in Italy the "vintage" cars, which are slowly taking over, live their life one weekend every year, when they gather for a big meeting, along with "modern" pan cars.
For the rest of the year they rest over the shelves, because the owners usually race modern pans... Although there are very cheap and relatively modern alternatives, everybody wants the latest model full with hop ups.

Look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l41yOgMi4uI

This is not what I call a slow car; and is very reliable too. This is a Super Avant. You can see a presentation here ( http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...rticle&sid=712 ). This car is still on sell with a street price waaay under 200€. It's a bargain for that money.... well, nobody wants it anymore beacuse they prefer to lap 2 or 3 secs faster and spend over 400€ fon an Intrepid.... Truth is we have no drivers willling to race cheap........ :-(

Good luck with your project
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #1674
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I don't know that much about Motonica, my brief look at it makes me doubt its durability but it seems to do pretty well on the track and I've not heard too many complaints about it. I just don't get the belt drive...if it's 2wd, what's the point, unless it's a question of being able to use parts off the 4wd model to keep production cost down.

ol
...the point of the belt is so you dont have to use pizza sized spurs like on my 300...i can only wear the rear tires down so far before the spur will be grabbing asphalt.......the double reduction solves the problem....and ive yet to see a guy kill a belt with a Motonica...the power just cant be laid down like a 4wd.....the tires can be run down to the rims....Joe P has been running on the 4wd guys used tires this season and has barely bought tires this year......talk about a cheap class....lol...and a gear diff in a pan car is pretty much bulletproof....although i do like my ball diffs simple adjustability...
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #1675
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...the point of the belt is so you dont have to use pizza sized spurs like on my 300...i can only wear the rear tires down so far before the spur will be grabbing asphalt.......the double reduction solves the problem....and ive yet to see a guy kill a belt with a Motonica...the power just cant be laid down like a 4wd.....the tires can be run down to the rims....Joe P has been running on the 4wd guys used tires this season and has barely bought tires this year......talk about a cheap class....lol...and a gear diff in a pan car is pretty much bulletproof....although i do like my ball diffs simple adjustability...
Same with a Super J, you can run the rubber all the way to the rim and not eat the gear. The kyosho build we're thinking of would be gear diff, a repro J ball diff...what will probably happen is we'll build both and test them side by side, but the kyosho build will only mean us knocking out a pan and then providing directions to anyone who wants to build one. And what you're saying about the tires is the way we'll be going regardless which build we go with, I know I have to make some concessions to modernity...lol. We'll use the quick change setup that everyone else has, but still, I want to get rubber organized to where people can mount their own cheap. Lots of ideas, but running the shop plus trying to make races leaves no time for building. This winter I hope to make progress, and I hope everyone else will throw their two cents in for improvements or design change that would improve the car.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:39 PM   #1676
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sorry but I'm not into your racing scene..... maybe things are a bit different there. I tell you this: here in Italy the "vintage" cars, which are slowly taking over, live their life one weekend every year, when they gather for a big meeting, along with "modern" pan cars.
For the rest of the year they rest over the shelves, because the owners usually race modern pans... Although there are very cheap and relatively modern alternatives, everybody wants the latest model full with hop ups.

Look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l41yOgMi4uI

This is not what I call a slow car; and is very reliable too. This is a Super Avant. You can see a presentation here ( http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...rticle&sid=712 ). This car is still on sell with a street price waaay under 200. It's a bargain for that money.... well, nobody wants it anymore beacuse they prefer to lap 2 or 3 secs faster and spend over 400 fon an Intrepid.... Truth is we have no drivers willling to race cheap........ :-(

Good luck with your project
Thank-you for the input. This form has shown us some pretty neat European machines, our problem is we can't get them. There are suppose to be several new ones hitting the states soon. The Motonica P8C has been here for awhile now. Because of our very strong track boards, we had a little beefing up to do. My Grandsons (9 & 12) have tested these cars well. The P8C has kept them on the track making laps and growing their driving skills. We run old 4wd rear tires, 3 port motors that require fueling some times, standard glow plugs, hard low wear front tires, and you can get parts. Yes they break but they're easily repaired. Because the boys are truly becoming better driver, breakage has drop-off a lot. The real fast guys don't get it, but this sort of car is the missing link that 1/8th on road needs.
LETS RACE SOME MORE!!
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:00 AM   #1677
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Same with a Super J, you can run the rubber all the way to the rim and not eat the gear. r.
...never seen a Delta J in person....is the spur gear small compared to an Associated spur?.........dont see how you could get the needed gear reduction w/o a huge spur??..........i am currently running a 12 tooth bell with a 63 spur and the car is plenty fast down the straight........cant imagine the top end if i put a 58 tooth spur on her........it would never get wound out by the end of the straight...
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:56 AM   #1678
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Thank-you for the input. This form has shown us some pretty neat European machines, our problem is we can't get them. There are suppose to be several new ones hitting the states soon. The Motonica P8C has been here for awhile now. Because of our very strong track boards, we had a little beefing up to do. My Grandsons (9 & 12) have tested these cars well. The P8C has kept them on the track making laps and growing their driving skills. We run old 4wd rear tires, 3 port motors that require fueling some times, standard glow plugs, hard low wear front tires, and you can get parts. Yes they break but they're easily repaired. Because the boys are truly becoming better driver, breakage has drop-off a lot. The real fast guys don't get it, but this sort of car is the missing link that 1/8th on road needs.
LETS RACE SOME MORE!!
Uh huh. That one grandson of yours is getting entirely too damned good for his age...I think I'm starting to understand some of the resentment some others felt when I was coming up through the ranks years ago. That kid will be winning "a" mains by the time he's 14...and he'll probably be texting someone while driving. I do have a solution however...I've got some cinder blocks out back and if we tie strapped one to the top of his car it may slow it down a little....
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:35 PM   #1679
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Uh huh. That one grandson of yours is getting entirely too damned good for his age...I think I'm starting to understand some of the resentment some others felt when I was coming up through the ranks years ago. That kid will be winning "a" mains by the time he's 14...and he'll probably be texting someone while driving. I do have a solution however...I've got some cinder blocks out back and if we tie strapped one to the top of his car it may slow it down a little....
At the big Byron's fuel challenge last weekend a Kid named JJ Wang won sedan and TQ'd 1/8th open and there was nothing any of us adults could do about it. JJ is 13yrs old now and only getting faster. He doesn't miss a apex and is light years ahead of where he was this time last year. (Although he out paced me last year too) Kids have always been the kings of our game. Ralph Burch use to be a kid no one could touch, there is some Canadian kid who is really fast now too. Now the kids are playing video games and not playing with RC cars so we don't see it as much. So I have no doubt Lon III and Noah will be whooping on all of us in short order. I just say rack up the wins over them now while we can.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:42 AM   #1680
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.....Possible to own to many pans???.......
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...m/vary1001.jpg
how a bout a four stroke pan for a no pit stop main..........that will get em talkin...
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXXRH2&P=SM
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