2010 IFMAR 200mm SEDAN WORLD CHAMPIONSHPS & WARMUP RACE INFORMATION
04-07-2010, 04:38 PM
#467
When Jim says that it usually means that he has a set of rules he is going by for the particular race he is at. It doesn't mean that they are the same everywhere he goes. Just that he is going to enforce the rules he has in hand.... In other words, if he was running this race, he would be given these rules and it would be "Rules are Rules, they don't change"
04-08-2010, 04:28 AM
#468
reason
It would be nice to know the reasoning behind this added rule change, because if it were such an advantage the majority would be running the spool. I would think right now that is not the case, alot more are running the diff. are there actual racers deciding these rules this one doesn't make much sense
04-08-2010, 05:28 AM
#469
It would be nice to know the reasoning behind this added rule change, because if it were such an advantage the majority would be running the spool. I would think right now that is not the case, alot more are running the diff. are there actual racers deciding these rules this one doesn't make much sense
04-08-2010, 07:49 AM
#472
IFMAR sent ROAR a request for comments on the new rules, which include the issue of a solid front axle (spool) and for some odd, reason it appears they want to allow a 3-speed transmission. I don't believe spools have ever been legal under IFMAR rules. I believe that 4-wheel braking has never been allowed, and use of a front spool or a gear diff, would create 4-wheel braking. It's based on the braking issue that they're clarifying that spools shouldn't be used, and if that's the case, then a front diff is also not legal. Here's the response sent by ROAR. Hopefully IFMAR sees the wisdom in allowing front spools and diffs, and gets rid of the ridiculous 3-speed rule. A three-speed in a 1/10 sedan? Really?
Statement to IFMAR regarding the sedan rule change
The IFMAR fuel on-road rules have always banned 4-wheel braking, and if it desires to keep it the same, then solid front axles and front gear differentials shouldn't be allowed – only a front one-way axle would be legal. The technical argument that it's not four wheel braking when using a solid front axle and a rear differential is sophomoric at best. Unless you have a terrible imbalance in the chassis or such severe cornering forces that one of the rear wheels is lifted completely off the racing surface, there absolutely is four wheel braking. So the argument is intellectually dishonest on its foundation. But, if you look at the original intent or "spirit" of the rule, which is to prevent added cost and complexity to these classes through complicated 4-wheel braking systems, I would argue that a solid front drive axle does not cause this condition - it makes the cars easier to handle, it’s inexpensive, low maintenance, and it’s more consistent and durable than either a one-way axle or gear differential. So ROAR would prefer that front gear differentials and solid front axles are permitted.
It’s already frightening how much crankshaft deflection happens with just a single speed gear reduction, no less with a two-speed and now potentially a three speed. The outermost gear of a three-speed transmission will be even farther past the tip of the TOTALLY unsupported crankshaft when compared to a two-speed, which is going to magnify the stress on the crank dramatically. This will surely lead to more crankshaft failures, and may even require engine manufacturers to change the crankshaft specifications to accommodate the extra stress. This is to say nothing of the complexity of adjusting a three-speed. You have to lock out third gear to adjust the shift point of second gear, then you have to adjust the shift point of third gear. It's going to be a ten-minute process per driver, which is going to require a full extra day of practice just for everyone to adjust their transmissions. Then of course there's the cost issue. Nothing about allowing a 3-speed transmission seems to be consistent with the overall goals of IFMAR or the underlying sanctioning organizations. ROAR strongly disagrees with implementation of this rule.
Statement to IFMAR regarding the sedan rule change
The IFMAR fuel on-road rules have always banned 4-wheel braking, and if it desires to keep it the same, then solid front axles and front gear differentials shouldn't be allowed – only a front one-way axle would be legal. The technical argument that it's not four wheel braking when using a solid front axle and a rear differential is sophomoric at best. Unless you have a terrible imbalance in the chassis or such severe cornering forces that one of the rear wheels is lifted completely off the racing surface, there absolutely is four wheel braking. So the argument is intellectually dishonest on its foundation. But, if you look at the original intent or "spirit" of the rule, which is to prevent added cost and complexity to these classes through complicated 4-wheel braking systems, I would argue that a solid front drive axle does not cause this condition - it makes the cars easier to handle, it’s inexpensive, low maintenance, and it’s more consistent and durable than either a one-way axle or gear differential. So ROAR would prefer that front gear differentials and solid front axles are permitted.
It’s already frightening how much crankshaft deflection happens with just a single speed gear reduction, no less with a two-speed and now potentially a three speed. The outermost gear of a three-speed transmission will be even farther past the tip of the TOTALLY unsupported crankshaft when compared to a two-speed, which is going to magnify the stress on the crank dramatically. This will surely lead to more crankshaft failures, and may even require engine manufacturers to change the crankshaft specifications to accommodate the extra stress. This is to say nothing of the complexity of adjusting a three-speed. You have to lock out third gear to adjust the shift point of second gear, then you have to adjust the shift point of third gear. It's going to be a ten-minute process per driver, which is going to require a full extra day of practice just for everyone to adjust their transmissions. Then of course there's the cost issue. Nothing about allowing a 3-speed transmission seems to be consistent with the overall goals of IFMAR or the underlying sanctioning organizations. ROAR strongly disagrees with implementation of this rule.
04-08-2010, 04:36 PM
#473
IFMAR sent ROAR a request for comments on the new rules, which include the issue of a solid front axle (spool) and for some odd, reason it appears they want to allow a 3-speed transmission. I don't believe spools have ever been legal under IFMAR rules. I believe that 4-wheel braking has never been allowed, and use of a front spool or a gear diff, would create 4-wheel braking. It's based on the braking issue that they're clarifying that spools shouldn't be used, and if that's the case, then a front diff is also not legal. Here's the response sent by ROAR. Hopefully IFMAR sees the wisdom in allowing front spools and diffs, and gets rid of the ridiculous 3-speed rule. A three-speed in a 1/10 sedan? Really?
Statement to IFMAR regarding the sedan rule change
The IFMAR fuel on-road rules have always banned 4-wheel braking, and if it desires to keep it the same, then solid front axles and front gear differentials shouldn't be allowed – only a front one-way axle would be legal. The technical argument that it's not four wheel braking when using a solid front axle and a rear differential is sophomoric at best. Unless you have a terrible imbalance in the chassis or such severe cornering forces that one of the rear wheels is lifted completely off the racing surface, there absolutely is four wheel braking. So the argument is intellectually dishonest on its foundation. But, if you look at the original intent or "spirit" of the rule, which is to prevent added cost and complexity to these classes through complicated 4-wheel braking systems, I would argue that a solid front drive axle does not cause this condition - it makes the cars easier to handle, it’s inexpensive, low maintenance, and it’s more consistent and durable than either a one-way axle or gear differential. So ROAR would prefer that front gear differentials and solid front axles are permitted.
It’s already frightening how much crankshaft deflection happens with just a single speed gear reduction, no less with a two-speed and now potentially a three speed. The outermost gear of a three-speed transmission will be even farther past the tip of the TOTALLY unsupported crankshaft when compared to a two-speed, which is going to magnify the stress on the crank dramatically. This will surely lead to more crankshaft failures, and may even require engine manufacturers to change the crankshaft specifications to accommodate the extra stress. This is to say nothing of the complexity of adjusting a three-speed. You have to lock out third gear to adjust the shift point of second gear, then you have to adjust the shift point of third gear. It's going to be a ten-minute process per driver, which is going to require a full extra day of practice just for everyone to adjust their transmissions. Then of course there's the cost issue. Nothing about allowing a 3-speed transmission seems to be consistent with the overall goals of IFMAR or the underlying sanctioning organizations. ROAR strongly disagrees with implementation of this rule.
Statement to IFMAR regarding the sedan rule change
The IFMAR fuel on-road rules have always banned 4-wheel braking, and if it desires to keep it the same, then solid front axles and front gear differentials shouldn't be allowed – only a front one-way axle would be legal. The technical argument that it's not four wheel braking when using a solid front axle and a rear differential is sophomoric at best. Unless you have a terrible imbalance in the chassis or such severe cornering forces that one of the rear wheels is lifted completely off the racing surface, there absolutely is four wheel braking. So the argument is intellectually dishonest on its foundation. But, if you look at the original intent or "spirit" of the rule, which is to prevent added cost and complexity to these classes through complicated 4-wheel braking systems, I would argue that a solid front drive axle does not cause this condition - it makes the cars easier to handle, it’s inexpensive, low maintenance, and it’s more consistent and durable than either a one-way axle or gear differential. So ROAR would prefer that front gear differentials and solid front axles are permitted.
It’s already frightening how much crankshaft deflection happens with just a single speed gear reduction, no less with a two-speed and now potentially a three speed. The outermost gear of a three-speed transmission will be even farther past the tip of the TOTALLY unsupported crankshaft when compared to a two-speed, which is going to magnify the stress on the crank dramatically. This will surely lead to more crankshaft failures, and may even require engine manufacturers to change the crankshaft specifications to accommodate the extra stress. This is to say nothing of the complexity of adjusting a three-speed. You have to lock out third gear to adjust the shift point of second gear, then you have to adjust the shift point of third gear. It's going to be a ten-minute process per driver, which is going to require a full extra day of practice just for everyone to adjust their transmissions. Then of course there's the cost issue. Nothing about allowing a 3-speed transmission seems to be consistent with the overall goals of IFMAR or the underlying sanctioning organizations. ROAR strongly disagrees with implementation of this rule.
04-08-2010, 05:51 PM
#474
Tech Master
It's great that IFMAR asked our opinion. Looks like I missed it. Glad you are on it.
Last edited by Rich Browne; 04-08-2010 at 06:49 PM.
04-08-2010, 05:54 PM
#475
Is that sarcasm or sincerity Rich? 
I couldn't get a read either way. Agreed on the asking part...
I couldn't get a read either way. Agreed on the asking part...
04-08-2010, 05:57 PM
#476
Tech Master
04-08-2010, 07:49 PM
#477
Let me clarify something... About last wednesday or so I thought I might start getting myself familiar with the IFMAR rules for the class since I am the ROAR Team Manager... It had nothing to do with "Knowing" something before anyone else did... I just happenned to see it. It didn't really hit me totally that it was in there untill the night before last when I was talking to a friend and we were talking about the front diff... Thats when I snapped and thought "Huh, thats wierd" While I was on the phone with my friend I re-visited the rules to make sure and sure enough, yes it was there.... Now I have pretty much scoured the rules and there are things in there that are like WTF???
Since I have gotten familiar with IFMAR rules before for other Team Manager duties, I have gotten them figured out. The rules in them that are written in Red, are new rules that have been added in the last update. The Spool and the 3 speed rules are red, meaning they are new rules since the previous update. The latest update and the one currently available was amended in February of 2010 (2 months ago) and the previous update before that was October of 2007... Obviously the previous update was for the last Sedan World Championship... So this leads me to believe that the solid front axle rule has just been added as of February. I do find it interesting that ROAR was asked about this just Monday since the amended rules have been since February? Kinda odd isn't it?
Since I have gotten familiar with IFMAR rules before for other Team Manager duties, I have gotten them figured out. The rules in them that are written in Red, are new rules that have been added in the last update. The Spool and the 3 speed rules are red, meaning they are new rules since the previous update. The latest update and the one currently available was amended in February of 2010 (2 months ago) and the previous update before that was October of 2007... Obviously the previous update was for the last Sedan World Championship... So this leads me to believe that the solid front axle rule has just been added as of February. I do find it interesting that ROAR was asked about this just Monday since the amended rules have been since February? Kinda odd isn't it?
04-08-2010, 08:49 PM
#478
It would have been good to know this before the pre worlds!
04-08-2010, 10:02 PM
#479
solid or diff
Let me clarify something... About last wednesday or so I thought I might start getting myself familiar with the IFMAR rules for the class since I am the ROAR Team Manager... It had nothing to do with "Knowing" something before anyone else did... I just happenned to see it. It didn't really hit me totally that it was in there untill the night before last when I was talking to a friend and we were talking about the front diff... Thats when I snapped and thought "Huh, thats wierd" While I was on the phone with my friend I re-visited the rules to make sure and sure enough, yes it was there.... Now I have pretty much scoured the rules and there are things in there that are like WTF???
Since I have gotten familiar with IFMAR rules before for other Team Manager duties, I have gotten them figured out. The rules in them that are written in Red, are new rules that have been added in the last update. The Spool and the 3 speed rules are red, meaning they are new rules since the previous update. The latest update and the one currently available was amended in February of 2010 (2 months ago) and the previous update before that was October of 2007... Obviously the previous update was for the last Sedan World Championship... So this leads me to believe that the solid front axle rule has just been added as of February. I do find it interesting that ROAR was asked about this just Monday since the amended rules have been since February? Kinda odd isn't it?
Since I have gotten familiar with IFMAR rules before for other Team Manager duties, I have gotten them figured out. The rules in them that are written in Red, are new rules that have been added in the last update. The Spool and the 3 speed rules are red, meaning they are new rules since the previous update. The latest update and the one currently available was amended in February of 2010 (2 months ago) and the previous update before that was October of 2007... Obviously the previous update was for the last Sedan World Championship... So this leads me to believe that the solid front axle rule has just been added as of February. I do find it interesting that ROAR was asked about this just Monday since the amended rules have been since February? Kinda odd isn't it?