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Old 09-16-2013, 06:51 PM   #9001
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Honestly, I do not know of any examples of people complaining a spec class being too fast. A GT car with a hot motor is still like a school bus with a big block. They are not like a twitchy 10th scale TC.

To me and from what I understand, the bulk of what I read and hear, the motivation and reason to create a Spec class would be to create a level and even playing field. Limiting what equipment is allowed, limits the variables...which also limits spending.

Open or unlimited classes have a super high barrier for entry, and reduce the number of people that will either join the fun, or continue to participate in a class they once enjoyed.

Having limited equipment will in turn likely reduce speed and lap times...so you end up at the same place...just get there a different way.

I firmly believe that knowing all competitors are on a similar playing field encourages participation. To me, that would be the point.

Thats the exact point I made, the side effect of having a spec motor and tires will make the car around 1.5-2 seconds slower, not the other way around. thats what testing has proven thus far. And as stated before the spec class is not designed for everyone, its just part of the ladder.Its is a fact that the spec cars are slower. Components were chosen for ease of break in, limited availability on tire shore choices and to give more of a market share to the GT manufacturers that have been here since the beginning.

Speedy you are VERY correct! maintenance is key on these cars. After the "new kit smell" goes away things wear out and need to be replaced and maintained on a regular basis. Unfortunately this will never change, but as long as this information is not held back and told upfront it should ease the transition. If you know before hand that you are going to have to work on your ride regularly before you purchase one than you will not be shocked when it comes time to rebuild! At least in theory that sounds good
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:17 PM   #9002
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In any form of racing, whether spec, open, GT, On road .... Cost and maintenance will always be part of it, and it generally follows, the faster it goes, the more expensive everything it will be.

There is no such thing as maintenance free racing when at a competitive level be is spec, open or limited rules.

Spec class would be ideal though for local club races cause it kinda makes initial cost fixed and maintenance costs/running costs less.

Open class should also be available for the sick guys like me!

Best would be for IFMAR, ROAR or whatever international ruling body to approve certain model engines of different brand for an approved international spec class motor and dictate maximum SRP price...
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:39 AM   #9003
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I have read all these points and at the end of the day I feel it comes down to the track and specific event.
I support Spec class if its enforced and a level field.. unfortunately that may have to be 1 specific brand of motor (similar to electric " handout") for that Spec event , that might be a hard bargin for a newbie but if you told the GT racers that travel nationally that you would have to run a (for example) Nova 3 port for $170 and you have ample time to prepare then why not?.... While many tracks are in desperate need for attendance "open " give the option to go as fast as possible with no restrictions and many "open" drivers such as myself who may not be as fast as the A main competitors can test their Driving Skills and set up in a spec class resulting in 2 entries and additional attendance for the track. I could only see this at large events, at our local club we have seen 25 GT entries and I would guess that if we went spec there would be 3 guys running an additional car and maybe 1 newbie that would enter. I have seen sportsman GT racers turn better laps than B and C main racers at GT only events.

The $$ limit on a motor is questionable because price and value fluctuates with supply and demand and whats hot today is on sale tomorrow. If Pan American GT race in Miami said this year the Spec Motor will be______. I would be building a second car to run and have 3 months to do it. When I compare that cost to airfare/hotel and rental its negligible. However a list of motors while helpful still leaves spec in the hands of the manufacturer. All of a sudden one motor is way better or faster than another and it still falls under "spec".
Events coordinating with distributors of motors and tires could make a spec class work without much fanfare. Announce your spec tire and motor in advance be decisive and enforce the rules at a GT only event. Club racing should be "open".
Marcus cant wait for Miami bro..My friend is running that Team C car and it looks awesome. I think he and a few more will be making the trip this year.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #9004
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I have read all these points and at the end of the day I feel it comes down to the track and specific event.
I support Spec class if its enforced and a level field.. unfortunately that may have to be 1 specific brand of motor (similar to electric " handout") for that Spec event , that might be a hard bargin for a newbie but if you told the GT racers that travel nationally that you would have to run a (for example) Nova 3 port for $170 and you have ample time to prepare then why not?.... While many tracks are in desperate need for attendance "open " give the option to go as fast as possible with no restrictions and many "open" drivers such as myself who may not be as fast as the A main competitors can test their Driving Skills and set up in a spec class resulting in 2 entries and additional attendance for the track. I could only see this at large events, at our local club we have seen 25 GT entries and I would guess that if we went spec there would be 3 guys running an additional car and maybe 1 newbie that would enter. I have seen sportsman GT racers turn better laps than B and C main racers at GT only events.

The $$ limit on a motor is questionable because price and value fluctuates with supply and demand and whats hot today is on sale tomorrow. If Pan American GT race in Miami said this year the Spec Motor will be______. I would be building a second car to run and have 3 months to do it. When I compare that cost to airfare/hotel and rental its negligible. However a list of motors while helpful still leaves spec in the hands of the manufacturer. All of a sudden one motor is way better or faster than another and it still falls under "spec".
Events coordinating with distributors of motors and tires could make a spec class work without much fanfare. Announce your spec tire and motor in advance be decisive and enforce the rules at a GT only event. Club racing should be "open".
Marcus cant wait for Miami bro..My friend is running that Team C car and it looks awesome. I think he and a few more will be making the trip this year.
Spoken very well and pretty much on the same page as we are! What you just said is reality plain and simple! Think along the same lines as VTA or USGT except with the exact same engine and tires!That class had about as much drama as we have had but now it is a very strong class and raced everywhere. If you know exactly what you are getting into it makes it much easier to stay in it, you simply make your choice to either run the class as is or dont. IF you do not care for the rules then simply run open!

Pressure I have been working with said person with the TeamC car you have been seeing and his feedback is helping the team out! With Tony running TeamC for 2014, and with me scouting a few more drivers, we should have a good year! I am gearing everything towards Homestead, I cant wait!!
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:53 AM   #9005
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I'm an outsider looking in, hell I don't even have a "dog on the porch" let alone one in the fight. But if you're looking to spec things on the cheap why not do it with tires? If you spec a tire that's hard enough it takes the motor out the equation..no? Fair/level playing field for all those involved..? A thousand HP doesn't help if the tire can only handle 5...just sayin'
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:05 AM   #9006
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I'm an outsider looking in, hell I don't even have a "dog on the porch" let alone one in the fight. But if you're looking to spec things on the cheap why not do it with tires? If you spec a tire that's hard enough it takes the motor out the equation..no? Fair/level playing field for all those involved..? A thousand HP doesn't help if the tire can only handle 5...just sayin'
The tires will be spec, only manufactured in two compounds, treaded, two different colors of distinctive wheels. also keep in mind that without some sort of compound choice weather conditions will wreak havoc. cold weather and hard tires will end up with damaged cars and thats counter productive to what we want.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:26 AM   #9007
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I'm an outsider looking in, hell I don't even have a "dog on the porch" let alone one in the fight. But if you're looking to spec things on the cheap why not do it with tires? If you spec a tire that's hard enough it takes the motor out the equation..no? Fair/level playing field for all those involved..? A thousand HP doesn't help if the tire can only handle 5...just sayin'
No one would dare put out a bad GT tire anymore.. times have changed !!!! Choose the motor and tires for the spec event and Im in... I cant see a manufacturer or distributor not supporting being the exclusive supplier of the spec motor for _____ RACEWAY. Have a (1) specific motor available at the track for sale under $200 offer special $$$ incentives for registered racers even allow time for OPEN drivers to motor swap and compete in 2nd spec class (if two cars are not available) now you talking!!!!!
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:21 AM   #9008
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No one would dare put out a bad GT tire anymore.. times have changed !!!! Choose the motor and tires for the spec event and Im in... I cant see a manufacturer or distributor not supporting being the exclusive supplier of the spec motor for _____ RACEWAY. Have a (1) specific motor available at the track for sale under $200 offer special $$$ incentives for registered racers even allow time for OPEN drivers to motor swap and compete in 2nd spec class (if two cars are not available) now you talking!!!!!

You are getting warmer!! The spec engine is going to be around 270ish with pipe and header (which are also spec).

ROFL on your tire statement!!
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #9009
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No one would dare put out a bad GT tire anymore.. times have changed !!!! Choose the motor and tires for the spec event and Im in... I cant see a manufacturer or distributor not supporting being the exclusive supplier of the spec motor for _____ RACEWAY. Have a (1) specific motor available at the track for sale under $200 offer special $$$ incentives for registered racers even allow time for OPEN drivers to motor swap and compete in 2nd spec class (if two cars are not available) now you talking!!!!!
I cannot disagree more; making 1 manufacturer spec 1 engine makes no sense. This will in no doubt alienate even more people from this class. The more limits you put on products the more people you will exclude. Example would be how much people complained about price caps at certain tracks, I could direct you to pages of rants that GT8 racers lost their minds let alone making 1 engine spec.

You want to add cash incentives?? All I can say is have you ever been to a cash race? If you want to see mountains of BS make a cash incentive, it’s guaranteed

Just food for thought, the same people that do well in open will do well in spec.

As I made in a point earlier car maintenance is a problem with many GT8 peeps. Making a sportsman class IMO would be a better option at races, there you could make many limitations to actually help a young racer grow, spec will just divide the class. Spec class IMO could be introduced when this class has enough participants regularly to divide.

Not trying to be argumentative just sharing what has been proven already
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #9010
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I cannot disagree more; making 1 manufacturer spec 1 engine makes no sense. This will in no doubt alienate even more people from this class. The more limits you put on products the more people you will exclude. Example would be how much people complained about price caps at certain tracks, I could direct you to pages of rants that GT8 racers lost their minds let alone making 1 engine spec.

You want to add cash incentives?? All I can say is have you ever been to a cash race? If you want to see mountains of BS make a cash incentive, it’s guaranteed

Just food for thought, the same people that do well in open will do well in spec.

As I made in a point earlier car maintenance is a problem with many GT8 peeps. Making a sportsman class IMO would be a better option at races, there you could make many limitations to actually help a young racer grow, spec will just divide the class. Spec class IMO could be introduced when this class has enough participants regularly to divide.

Not trying to be argumentative just sharing what has been proven already

Man, after the kind of arguments we normally have I enjoy arguing with anyone with any kind of sense!!

Now with that being said i disagree with what you are saying for a few reasons:
  • SPEC racing needs to be SPEC racing just like other motorsports(SCCA)
  • cash events ARE FOR PRO'S AND PROS ONLY! The rules for the Pro class will be balck or white, no grey and in the event that there is a problem, the Pro's will vote within themselves on the issue
  • As i keep saying the SPEC class is not for everyone and everyone cannot be made happy at all times!

Just like the last two pages have been, there is going to be two sides. but think about this, this format has not been tried before so lets see how it goes! Good thing is that it is not ROAR or IFMAR so the rules can easily be altered quickly and eventually it will evolve into perfection!

Also let me also say that the tracks that are involved with IGT8F are just that....INVOLVED!! So they are already on board with the program, this has been brewing up since early this year and the decisions being made are in conjunction with 6+ track owner operators!!

I dont think its going to divide anyone to be honest and here is why: once the rules are finalized thats it, you make your decision to run SPEC based on those rules and those rule will be enforced at ALL IGT8F affiliated tracks. I feel that the majority of upper level competitors are not going to even mess with SPEC except for exhibition purposes. I am not but my son is for example. What i do see happening is growth, especially local growth where yoru avg spectator wanting to get into this doesnt have to make those choices that can make or break them! Imagine a newbie trying to break in an OS engine Imagine a newbie having to choose between 5 different shores of tires (that actually wears me out too!!)! i guess the best way to sum it up is to say that the SPEC class is designed for growth and will be optimized for growth of the class
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:54 PM   #9011
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I cannot disagree more; making 1 manufacturer spec 1 engine makes no sense. This will in no doubt alienate even more people from this class. The more limits you put on products the more people you will exclude. Example would be how much people complained about price caps at certain tracks, I could direct you to pages of rants that GT8 racers lost their minds let alone making 1 engine spec.

You want to add cash incentives?? All I can say is have you ever been to a cash race? If you want to see mountains of BS make a cash incentive, it’s guaranteed

Just food for thought, the same people that do well in open will do well in spec.

As I made in a point earlier car maintenance is a problem with many GT8 peeps. Making a sportsman class IMO would be a better option at races, there you could make many limitations to actually help a young racer grow, spec will just divide the class. Spec class IMO could be introduced when this class has enough participants regularly to divide.

Not trying to be argumentative just sharing what has been proven already
Speedy I think Im misunderstood on a few points. The Spec class I believe should be run in addition to OPEN at GT ONLY events when you have substantial turnout. Meaning it would be a second class. A specific model motor would make it a true SPEC class. This would have to be supported by hosting TRACK which gets its support from the CLUB racers which would choose the motor that they run. I think that that's a true SPEC class. And what I meant by incentive is financial support by distributors or retailers to the track not a CASH RACE...I have run in a cash race and I wanted to win more than I needed the money...but I enjoyed my check... fortunately..lol . For instance IF The local GT club I belong to wanted to decided to run a spec class and members wanted to buy say 25 motors ..I would hope the local hobby store or manufacturer would be kind enough to extend a financial courtesy. Im not talking about CASH race just appreciation in the form of a discount in pricing for "BULK BUSINESS" in turn a LHS would stock these motors and have the available for hosted events. Though rctech or any social rc media we could post the motor running at that event for the spec class.
Im positive that the same racers that do well in open will do well in spec but cost , level field are maintained. Sportsmen could run in this class and not be intimidated and it would be all about driving skill. 2 cents
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:05 PM   #9012
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I've skimmed lightly through this thread, so forgive me if anyone has hashed this point already.

We are throwing around the word Spec (Specification) racing a lot. In the truest sense, specification racing is just that—specific. Selected chassis, selected motors/engines, selected or event based-tires, etc. That is meant to control costs and reign in complexity.

With specific rules you have something akin to Formula Ford racing, with open classes you have Formula 1 with rules that limit the insanity.

What I think most are seeking in this discussion is the balance of budget and ease of entry into the hobby. Basically a budget/beginner class. Some folks just want to run on the track and have fun and either don't have the desire to mod like mad and some just need the smooth entry into the hobby. This class fits those folk.

In a different time, you often saw events host a spec class where one type of RTR car was allowed. A true beginner could already own that particular RTR or buy one at the event. Those type are as much marketing as they were sport, but they worked tremendously well if promoted properly.

So the question is what do people want; specification racing or the budget class. Personally I would love the budget class. I've been largely out of the sport due to the ole money and time thing. That no nonsense RTR or loose spec class would be up my alley.

Maybe it is what most seem to be saying, start with specification class and loosen till it feels right. Like your belt on Thanksgiving day.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:03 PM   #9013
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Speedy I think Im misunderstood on a few points. The Spec class I believe should be run in addition to OPEN at GT ONLY events when you have substantial turnout. Meaning it would be a second class. A specific model motor would make it a true SPEC class. This would have to be supported by hosting TRACK whick gets its support from the CLUB racers which would choose the motor that they run. I think that thats a true SPEC class. And what I meant by incentive is finacial support by distributors or retailers to the track not a CASH RACE...I have run in a cash race and I wanted to win more than I needed the money...but I enjoyed my check... fortunatley..lol . For instance IF The local GT club I belong to wanted to decided to run a spec class and members wanted to buy say 25 motors ..I would hope the local hobby store or manufacturer would be kind enough to extend a finacial courtesy. Im not talking about CASH race just apreciation in the form of a discount in pricing for "BULK BUISNESS" in turn a LHS would stock these motors and have the available for hosted events. Though rctech or any social rc media we could post the motor running at that event for the spec class.
Im positive that the same racers that do well in open will do well in spec but cost , level field are maintained. Sportsmen could run in this class and not be intimidated and it would be all about driving skill. 2 cents
Good day sir and THANK YOU!
Everything you just said is EXACTLY what we at IGT8F have been working on for the last 6 months. I would like to know what shop and track you are affiliated with, we would be honored to show you the program we designed and who is supporting our efforts.

Our program is designed for growth to the class in its entirety from racers to manufacturer's and everyone in between. I'm not just talking GT class, I mean On Road as a WHOLE.

Any track or hobby shop owner that is interested in getting information please contact me, I would be happy to discuss our program, affiliates and benefits to our program.

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I had not chimed in on the discussion until I had confirmation and authorization from various supporters. But that happened TODAY!

Official Press Release will soon be released.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:14 PM   #9014
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I've skimmed lightly through this thread, so forgive me if anyone has hashed this point already.

We are throwing around the word Spec (Specification) racing a lot. In the truest sense, specification racing is just that—specific. Selected chassis, selected motors/engines, selected or event based-tires, etc. That is meant to control costs and reign in complexity.

With specific rules you have something akin to Formula Ford racing, with open classes you have Formula 1 with rules that limit the insanity.

What I think most are seeking in this discussion is the balance of budget and ease of entry into the hobby. Basically a budget/beginner class. Some folks just want to run on the track and have fun and either don't have the desire to mod like mad and some just need the smooth entry into the hobby. This class fits those folk.

In a different time, you often saw events host a spec class where one type of RTR car was allowed. A true beginner could already own that particular RTR or buy one at the event. Those type are as much marketing as they were sport, but they worked tremendously well if promoted properly.

So the question is what do people want; specification racing or the budget class. Personally I would love the budget class. I've been largely out of the sport due to the ole money and time thing. That no nonsense RTR or loose spec class would be up my alley.

Maybe it is what most seem to be saying, start with specification class and loosen till it feels right. Like your belt on Thanksgiving day.
Thank you as well Sir, your points of view are dead on with ours at IGT8F.

Our soon to be released "SPEC" class rules "SPECIFIC", allows for easier entry into On road Nitro first. For someone interested in just playing in the streets with the OPTION to participate in organized races without having to buy anything else and the guy next to you racing is also running the exact same equipment.

Our program is designed to bring in NEW participants NOT split our existing ones.

Vist WWW.IGT8F.COM we invite everyone.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:58 PM   #9015
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Originally Posted by MantisWorx View Post
Man, after the kind of arguments we normally have I enjoy arguing with anyone with any kind of sense!!

Now with that being said i disagree with what you are saying for a few reasons:
  • SPEC racing needs to be SPEC racing just like other motorsports(SCCA)
  • cash events ARE FOR PRO'S AND PROS ONLY! The rules for the Pro class will be balck or white, no grey and in the event that there is a problem, the Pro's will vote within themselves on the issue
  • As i keep saying the SPEC class is not for everyone and everyone cannot be made happy at all times!

Just like the last two pages have been, there is going to be two sides. but think about this, this format has not been tried before so lets see how it goes! Good thing is that it is not ROAR or IFMAR so the rules can easily be altered quickly and eventually it will evolve into perfection!

Also let me also say that the tracks that are involved with IGT8F are just that....INVOLVED!! So they are already on board with the program, this has been brewing up since early this year and the decisions being made are in conjunction with 6+ track owner operators!!

I dont think its going to divide anyone to be honest and here is why: once the rules are finalized thats it, you make your decision to run SPEC based on those rules and those rule will be enforced at ALL IGT8F affiliated tracks. I feel that the majority of upper level competitors are not going to even mess with SPEC except for exhibition purposes. I am not but my son is for example. What i do see happening is growth, especially local growth where yoru avg spectator wanting to get into this doesnt have to make those choices that can make or break them! Imagine a newbie trying to break in an OS engine Imagine a newbie having to choose between 5 different shores of tires (that actually wears me out too!!)! i guess the best way to sum it up is to say that the SPEC class is designed for growth and will be optimized for growth of the class
I was merely pointing out what myself and many other long time GT8 racers have seen in the past.
Your words are and I quote” the SPEC class is designed for growth and will be optimized for growth of the class”

The reason that the Spec class helps with growth is that the cars are “SPEC” to some how deliver less power to the drive line, in turn being less harmfull to drive shaft pins/bearings/clutches/tires/ etc.. making the class easier to invite people to learn by experience rather then be humiliated by some of the A main racers that don’t have any humility.

Not all Spec classes are the same BUT what I just said is the after effect of the things I would be expecting if a Spec class was eventually made. Spec and Sportsman are not the same. Just A side note to something you mentioned in your last post, I raced SCCA from 1979 to 1985 in a 1971 Datsun 240Z at Lime Rock I am very aware of how a real sactioning body enforces rules. Will dig through old photo album and grab a picture or 2 later

For some reason unless I am mistaken you believe I am against a Spec class, I am not I just don’t think the timing is right but this is just a opinion that I have in common with 90% of my GT8 friends that I race with.

You keep mentioning this IGT8F affiliation? Is this some kind of Sanctioning Body that provides something like ROAR? I never heard of it?

Pro class? I don’t even know how to respond please explain.

Marcus I am ALL FOR CONTINUING GROWTH for this class I always thought the word Pro went with someone that made a profit from what they were doing, 99.99% of us do this for FUN including myself.

More and more rules make this less fun. Gus aka Spooky in Utah has Open and I believe some type of Sportsman class and from what I hear everyone has a Big Smile and has Fun, isn’t this the Goal? If not please enlighten me.

We have had discussions with wording of classes with names of “Open” “Spec” “Sportsman” now you are adding “PRO” ALL I CAN SAY IS wow. Maybe you see something that I do not if so I wish you much success.

If you have some local growth that needs all those classes I think that’s great!!! But as a whole we don’t have the numbers to be using so many labels. Again I am not trying to put the Kibosh on anything that has been said just have some strong counter opinions that reflect GT8 racing around the country that I personally have seen through the last few years.

Let’s all keep discussing on how to keep growth in the upward direction and who knows maybe a few more manufacturers will get involved. The more involvement the more development will be made to make these cars better and better. The last thing we want is in class fighting or the class to become stagnate.

ROAR has the rules written for this class for some reason they have not published them I really hope they wake up soon and post them.

We want to be accepted into the RC community? why not make this a race to remember?


2014 FLORIDA WINTERNATS FEB. 11-15,2014
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The 38th FLORIDA WINTERNATS will be Feb. 11-15,2014
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Mark your calendar .
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