GOOD FUEL
01-24-2007, 06:17 PM
#47
I decided not to accept pm's, I actually disabled it, so anybody who wants to send me a message can just post it, specially if you got nothing to hide.
01-24-2007, 06:45 PM
#49
Interesting thread that you guys have going regarding fuel. I think that you will find that there is quite a bit of extensive back to back testing involved in determining this.
ShermanSim, in So Cal. our fuel is available at Ultimate, ARC, Hot Rod Hobbies and at Revelations.
ShermanSim, in So Cal. our fuel is available at Ultimate, ARC, Hot Rod Hobbies and at Revelations.
01-24-2007, 07:00 PM
#50
Originally Posted by Werks
I think that you will find that there is quite a bit of extensive back to back testing involved in determining this.
Thanks!
01-25-2007, 09:48 AM
#51
werks fuel
Originally Posted by Werks
Interesting thread that you guys have going regarding fuel. I think that you will find that there is quite a bit of extensive back to back testing involved in determining this.
ShermanSim, in So Cal. our fuel is available at Ultimate, ARC, Hot Rod Hobbies and at Revelations.
ShermanSim, in So Cal. our fuel is available at Ultimate, ARC, Hot Rod Hobbies and at Revelations.
Thanks for the quick responds.
sherman
01-25-2007, 01:05 PM
#52
Sherman, not a problem.
rmdhawaii, I'll try. Fuel is in my opinion a part of for lack of better words "the complete power train package". This consists of the engine, plug heat range, pipe and fuel. Just as how you would do back to back testing of pipes to find which one suits the power curve of your specific motor (in essence you are optimizing the performance of the engine) so you must do with fuel.
Bottom line is fuels are composed of three basic components, methanol, Nitro and lubricant. What differentiates fuels and the performance characteristics of them is basically going to be the Nitro type in addition to the quantity, quality and mix (read ratio) of lubricants (caster v/ synthetic) used in the blend. Having said that when talking about our Werks "Race Blend" fuel you have to keep in mind that we are quite different than other fuel manufacturers. That difference is that our primary business involves the development and manufacturing of engines, something that none of the other fuel manufacturers do. So because of this we have been very fortunate to have access to quite a wealth of knowledge and resources by our interaction with guys like Alberto Picco, Andrea Rossi, Lamberto Collari, Adrien Bertin etc. something that the other guys do not have.
When we originally set about this project several years ago it was with the intention to create a fuel that allows us to optimize the performance of our engines in competition use for our team drivers, not because we ever intended to sell fuel. We did this because frankly we wanted our engines to win and were having problems setting them up to maximize their performance because our drivers were all using different brands of fuel. Because of that we went about the development from a different stand point which was it really does not matter what the cost of materials are, we are selling engines and we have to make a fuel for our team guys that is reliable, stable, offers great protection when run under severe race conditions (basically tuned to the edge) and maximizes the performance of the engine. Meaning it allows the engine to spool up as quick as possible, has great over rev-protection, allows the engine to safely be run as lean as possible to increase run time, has a high tolerance to detonation so that you can run the lowest possible deck height etc. etc. These are all factors that came into consideration when we started testing and developing our fuel and 2 1/2 years later lol we finally had a product that we felt met all of the requirements that we set for it. That product we later went on to release as our "Race Blend" fuel.
Now I do not want to turn this into a ours versus brand x debate so I'm going to keep this rather general. A ways back I pointed out what were the basic components of all fuels and what differentiates the performance of fuels. Starting with Nitro we use only made in US Nitro not Chinese Nitro like most of the other fuel manufacturers. Why? Because in testing we have found that while there is a significant cost savings to Chinese Nitro it contains more impurities and seems to be less consistent from batch to batch that US made Nitro. In back to back testing this translated into a noticeable reduction in performance (specifically in punch) and increased sensitivity to needle changes (read the so called sweet spot on tune got narrower).
Secondly when it comes to lubricants frankly 90% of the US fuel manufacturers use the same castor and synthetic lubricants that they all buy from 1 company. So the primary difference between brand x and brand y fuel is possibly a couple percent more or less of the same oil, the label and the color of the dye. We tried this lubricant and it works fine for shall we call it sport use. But if you are pushing the limit of what the engine can produce (as in full race conditions which is the market that we are active in) I personally do not think that it's the best. So we went out and tested everything type of lubricants that we could find in every possible ratio, mixture and blend that we could come up with. This is what took over 2 years lol! What we ended up going with a set of exotic lubricants with an additives package that offered less parasitic drag (allowing the engine to spool quickly) with a high film strength (over-lean protection) and several other performance benefits. Draw back was that it is expensive but again we were not interested in selling fuel, we just wanted to optimize the performance of our engines.
Initial response from our team guys was great. Engines revved quicker, felt peppier plus there was a noticeable increase in run time over other fuel brands that they had been using (not going to get into specific brands). In 1/8th off-road they noticed as much as a 45 second increase, in on-road this resulted in aprox 10-15 seconds. Engines ran cooler & were much less prone to detonation which allowed us to set our deck height much lower than we could before (some times by as much as 10 thou. with .21 on-road engines!). This needless to say resulted in a significant increase in torque! Engine wear was reduced and our team guys were easily seeing 8-9 gallons on a p/s in off-road conditions, something that is not typical for pro's under race conditions in that environment. Chalk this up to having a good lubricant package with great protection.
Afterwards the decision was made to go into production with the fuel and we realized that one of the big issues is freshness of fuel and shelf-life. So we are one of the only fuel companies that actually induction seals each of the bottles right after filling. This provides an air tight, tamper proof seal to each bottle. So in a nutshell the day that you break the seal to run the fuel, it's as fresh as the day it was bottled. Why is this important? Because methanol is hydroscopic and basically will suck moisture out of the air. Add an air tight seal like we do and this problem is no more. Does it increase cost, yes it does but it also guarantee's that we are giving you guys the freshest fuel possible.
Another thing to keep in mind is that depending on how fuels are blended i.e. by volume or by weight your Nitro content can fluctuate quite a bit. So your 30% Nitro fuel may actually only have 26% Nitro in it. Our 30% fuel ships with 29.5% Nitro in it. Our 25% has 24.5%. Why? Because we want to provide you with the highest Nitro content possible while still ensuring that you as a racer will be able to pass tech at an event! So we double check each batch on a hydrometer (just like they would at a race) before botteling.
So far we have been really pleased with the response of the drivers that are using our product as well as the results. Some of the top off-road guys in the US like Jeremy Kortz, Chad Bradley, Marty Korn & Josh Wheeler use our fuel. In on-road we are pleased to be able to say that Joel Johnson won the Great Lake challenge with it. Ralph Burch used it to win the 2006 1/8th nationals. Shimo uses it when he is in the US. Sirio prefers that their US team drivers use our fuel. Why? Not because they have to but because they feel that it is one of the best. Whew! That gives you some insight into our mind set with the development of this product and our fuel in general. Let me know if you have any questions, as I have no problem discussing these types of products. Please do however understand that there are some things that I'm not going to be able to be too specific about (have to keep some secrets lol) and I do not want to get into a this product versus that one debate.
Ron
rmdhawaii, I'll try. Fuel is in my opinion a part of for lack of better words "the complete power train package". This consists of the engine, plug heat range, pipe and fuel. Just as how you would do back to back testing of pipes to find which one suits the power curve of your specific motor (in essence you are optimizing the performance of the engine) so you must do with fuel.
Bottom line is fuels are composed of three basic components, methanol, Nitro and lubricant. What differentiates fuels and the performance characteristics of them is basically going to be the Nitro type in addition to the quantity, quality and mix (read ratio) of lubricants (caster v/ synthetic) used in the blend. Having said that when talking about our Werks "Race Blend" fuel you have to keep in mind that we are quite different than other fuel manufacturers. That difference is that our primary business involves the development and manufacturing of engines, something that none of the other fuel manufacturers do. So because of this we have been very fortunate to have access to quite a wealth of knowledge and resources by our interaction with guys like Alberto Picco, Andrea Rossi, Lamberto Collari, Adrien Bertin etc. something that the other guys do not have.
When we originally set about this project several years ago it was with the intention to create a fuel that allows us to optimize the performance of our engines in competition use for our team drivers, not because we ever intended to sell fuel. We did this because frankly we wanted our engines to win and were having problems setting them up to maximize their performance because our drivers were all using different brands of fuel. Because of that we went about the development from a different stand point which was it really does not matter what the cost of materials are, we are selling engines and we have to make a fuel for our team guys that is reliable, stable, offers great protection when run under severe race conditions (basically tuned to the edge) and maximizes the performance of the engine. Meaning it allows the engine to spool up as quick as possible, has great over rev-protection, allows the engine to safely be run as lean as possible to increase run time, has a high tolerance to detonation so that you can run the lowest possible deck height etc. etc. These are all factors that came into consideration when we started testing and developing our fuel and 2 1/2 years later lol we finally had a product that we felt met all of the requirements that we set for it. That product we later went on to release as our "Race Blend" fuel.
Now I do not want to turn this into a ours versus brand x debate so I'm going to keep this rather general. A ways back I pointed out what were the basic components of all fuels and what differentiates the performance of fuels. Starting with Nitro we use only made in US Nitro not Chinese Nitro like most of the other fuel manufacturers. Why? Because in testing we have found that while there is a significant cost savings to Chinese Nitro it contains more impurities and seems to be less consistent from batch to batch that US made Nitro. In back to back testing this translated into a noticeable reduction in performance (specifically in punch) and increased sensitivity to needle changes (read the so called sweet spot on tune got narrower).
Secondly when it comes to lubricants frankly 90% of the US fuel manufacturers use the same castor and synthetic lubricants that they all buy from 1 company. So the primary difference between brand x and brand y fuel is possibly a couple percent more or less of the same oil, the label and the color of the dye. We tried this lubricant and it works fine for shall we call it sport use. But if you are pushing the limit of what the engine can produce (as in full race conditions which is the market that we are active in) I personally do not think that it's the best. So we went out and tested everything type of lubricants that we could find in every possible ratio, mixture and blend that we could come up with. This is what took over 2 years lol! What we ended up going with a set of exotic lubricants with an additives package that offered less parasitic drag (allowing the engine to spool quickly) with a high film strength (over-lean protection) and several other performance benefits. Draw back was that it is expensive but again we were not interested in selling fuel, we just wanted to optimize the performance of our engines.
Initial response from our team guys was great. Engines revved quicker, felt peppier plus there was a noticeable increase in run time over other fuel brands that they had been using (not going to get into specific brands). In 1/8th off-road they noticed as much as a 45 second increase, in on-road this resulted in aprox 10-15 seconds. Engines ran cooler & were much less prone to detonation which allowed us to set our deck height much lower than we could before (some times by as much as 10 thou. with .21 on-road engines!). This needless to say resulted in a significant increase in torque! Engine wear was reduced and our team guys were easily seeing 8-9 gallons on a p/s in off-road conditions, something that is not typical for pro's under race conditions in that environment. Chalk this up to having a good lubricant package with great protection.
Afterwards the decision was made to go into production with the fuel and we realized that one of the big issues is freshness of fuel and shelf-life. So we are one of the only fuel companies that actually induction seals each of the bottles right after filling. This provides an air tight, tamper proof seal to each bottle. So in a nutshell the day that you break the seal to run the fuel, it's as fresh as the day it was bottled. Why is this important? Because methanol is hydroscopic and basically will suck moisture out of the air. Add an air tight seal like we do and this problem is no more. Does it increase cost, yes it does but it also guarantee's that we are giving you guys the freshest fuel possible.
Another thing to keep in mind is that depending on how fuels are blended i.e. by volume or by weight your Nitro content can fluctuate quite a bit. So your 30% Nitro fuel may actually only have 26% Nitro in it. Our 30% fuel ships with 29.5% Nitro in it. Our 25% has 24.5%. Why? Because we want to provide you with the highest Nitro content possible while still ensuring that you as a racer will be able to pass tech at an event! So we double check each batch on a hydrometer (just like they would at a race) before botteling.
So far we have been really pleased with the response of the drivers that are using our product as well as the results. Some of the top off-road guys in the US like Jeremy Kortz, Chad Bradley, Marty Korn & Josh Wheeler use our fuel. In on-road we are pleased to be able to say that Joel Johnson won the Great Lake challenge with it. Ralph Burch used it to win the 2006 1/8th nationals. Shimo uses it when he is in the US. Sirio prefers that their US team drivers use our fuel. Why? Not because they have to but because they feel that it is one of the best. Whew! That gives you some insight into our mind set with the development of this product and our fuel in general. Let me know if you have any questions, as I have no problem discussing these types of products. Please do however understand that there are some things that I'm not going to be able to be too specific about (have to keep some secrets lol) and I do not want to get into a this product versus that one debate.
Ron
01-25-2007, 02:49 PM
#53
Wow, that's what I want about you fuel manufacturers that you really do a thorough testing on your fuel for you engines.
If only castor oil can withstand high temperatures, then our engine should'nt have problems about the dark stains left on nitro engines.
By the way, CASTOR OIL IS THE BEST LUBRICATING AGENT than synthetic oil but the problem with castor oil is that they don't tolerate high temperatures like synthetic does, that's why it produce a varnish like by-products that we saw dark stains on nitro engine internals.
I used O' Donnell fuel and the problem is that they must've used too much castor oil than synthetic, that's why my nitro engine had some dark stains in it.
About Maxy's fuel they're saving money on cheap plastic containers. The cap won't seal very well and they use marker to indicate nitro content on their fuel [dumb stupid idea].
If only castor oil can withstand high temperatures, then our engine should'nt have problems about the dark stains left on nitro engines.
By the way, CASTOR OIL IS THE BEST LUBRICATING AGENT than synthetic oil but the problem with castor oil is that they don't tolerate high temperatures like synthetic does, that's why it produce a varnish like by-products that we saw dark stains on nitro engine internals.
I used O' Donnell fuel and the problem is that they must've used too much castor oil than synthetic, that's why my nitro engine had some dark stains in it.
About Maxy's fuel they're saving money on cheap plastic containers. The cap won't seal very well and they use marker to indicate nitro content on their fuel [dumb stupid idea].
Last edited by FREELANCE_RCer; 01-25-2007 at 03:04 PM.
01-25-2007, 03:03 PM
#56
Ron,
Thanks for the great response! You should think about posting this info up on your Web site.
I'm going to post it on my new Engine Knowledge Base site, so that people can get a better appreciation to what goes into creating a good racing fuel.
I do have a few questions, if you don't mind.
1. What's the best way to keep the fuel fresh after opening it?
2. How can you tell if the fuel is stale?
3. Is there a specific hydrometer you use or can recommend to racers (i.e. because of cost)?
4. How are you checking the fuel with a hydrometer?
5. How many degrees cooler would you say the engine runs with Werks fuel?
6. When you say the engine is "less prone to detonation", do you mean that people are running the engine at a higher temperature than it should be? i.e. Let's say you should keep an engine in the 220-240 range, but because of the fuel, you can run it between 260-280 without worrying about detonation. - or do you mean it's less prone to detonation because it keeps the temperature down.
7. Have you ever compared Werks fuel with other fuels using a dynometer? And if so, where did you see the biggest difference in the performance curve?
Thanks,
Rainer
Thanks for the great response! You should think about posting this info up on your Web site.
I'm going to post it on my new Engine Knowledge Base site, so that people can get a better appreciation to what goes into creating a good racing fuel.I do have a few questions, if you don't mind.
1. What's the best way to keep the fuel fresh after opening it?
2. How can you tell if the fuel is stale?
3. Is there a specific hydrometer you use or can recommend to racers (i.e. because of cost)?
4. How are you checking the fuel with a hydrometer?
5. How many degrees cooler would you say the engine runs with Werks fuel?
6. When you say the engine is "less prone to detonation", do you mean that people are running the engine at a higher temperature than it should be? i.e. Let's say you should keep an engine in the 220-240 range, but because of the fuel, you can run it between 260-280 without worrying about detonation. - or do you mean it's less prone to detonation because it keeps the temperature down.
7. Have you ever compared Werks fuel with other fuels using a dynometer? And if so, where did you see the biggest difference in the performance curve?
Thanks,
Rainer
01-25-2007, 03:15 PM
#58
Originally Posted by FREELANCE_RCer
About Maxy's fuel they're saving money on cheap plastic containers. The cap won't seal very well and they use marker to indicate nitro content on their fuel [dumb stupid idea].
01-25-2007, 03:23 PM
#59
Originally Posted by Francis M.
Scarlet sounds like Corex? hmmm.....
If you want to promote a certain product just say so and stop Bsing everyone on the boards so you can bash other products.
If you want to promote a certain product just say so and stop Bsing everyone on the boards so you can bash other products.
BE like Werks he came out and explain to everybody how to determine a good fuel, why? are you selling fuel? then explain why your fuel is considered good fuel, you sure sounds like a hater patrol hmmmm....