Kyosho V-ONE RRR Ultimate Edition (UE)
06-21-2006, 12:49 PM
#497
The Nats results pretty much confirmed what I suspected - that the out-of-the box WCE has been out engineered by the MTX-4 and the 720. That's why I started the UE/X project in the first place.
The 720 is basically a 710 “Ultimate X” with some really well engineered design changes. The 720 design team did an excellent job and Toso, Paolo and Scotty proved that the Serpent is back in the game. The guys in Europe kicked ass as well. The MTX-4, while very similar to the RRR, is just better. I haven’t been able to figure out why yet. Unfortunately, the RRR Evo will not do anything for the V-ONE series.
Out-of-the box, I place the WCE and Evo behind the MTX-4 and 720. If you don’t upgrade your RRR, you just won’t be competitive against drivers of equal skill (setup, tuning and driving). I would say, that the Ultimate X puts the car back in the running with the MTX-4 and 720. The only guys that can prove this for me are Josh, Adrian, Marc and Ron – and I really don’t think any of these guys are going to upgrade their car to the UE/X spec. In the mean time, at a national and international level, I think we will take a back seat to the MTX-4 and 720. Maybe Josh and Adrian can prove me wrong at IFMAR.
My message for Kyosho Japan: Get off your ass. The sun is setting on the RRR.
The 720 is basically a 710 “Ultimate X” with some really well engineered design changes. The 720 design team did an excellent job and Toso, Paolo and Scotty proved that the Serpent is back in the game. The guys in Europe kicked ass as well. The MTX-4, while very similar to the RRR, is just better. I haven’t been able to figure out why yet. Unfortunately, the RRR Evo will not do anything for the V-ONE series.
Out-of-the box, I place the WCE and Evo behind the MTX-4 and 720. If you don’t upgrade your RRR, you just won’t be competitive against drivers of equal skill (setup, tuning and driving). I would say, that the Ultimate X puts the car back in the running with the MTX-4 and 720. The only guys that can prove this for me are Josh, Adrian, Marc and Ron – and I really don’t think any of these guys are going to upgrade their car to the UE/X spec. In the mean time, at a national and international level, I think we will take a back seat to the MTX-4 and 720. Maybe Josh and Adrian can prove me wrong at IFMAR.
My message for Kyosho Japan: Get off your ass. The sun is setting on the RRR.
06-21-2006, 01:17 PM
#498
RMD, I agree with a lot of things you say on here, but I would have to STRONGLY disagree with your comment above.
Just because a 720 first time out and won or Swauger was TQ, doesn't mean the RRR WCE was incapable of winning. Josh was just as fast as the top runners, remember he won the outlaw class. Think about this scenario.... if all variables over the weekend happened the same way except Toso was driving a Kyosho, do you think he would still win? Toso is a very good gas driver, but if you have ever seen him on a carpet mod sedan, you'll understand why he is 3 times National Champ in 2 years and it's not because entirely on his equipments.
So will you be retracting your comment if a Kyosho wins the Worlds? Keep in mind, it's an hour long Main, a LOT of things can happen, even at the pro level.
Dom
Just because a 720 first time out and won or Swauger was TQ, doesn't mean the RRR WCE was incapable of winning. Josh was just as fast as the top runners, remember he won the outlaw class. Think about this scenario.... if all variables over the weekend happened the same way except Toso was driving a Kyosho, do you think he would still win? Toso is a very good gas driver, but if you have ever seen him on a carpet mod sedan, you'll understand why he is 3 times National Champ in 2 years and it's not because entirely on his equipments.
So will you be retracting your comment if a Kyosho wins the Worlds? Keep in mind, it's an hour long Main, a LOT of things can happen, even at the pro level.
Dom
06-21-2006, 04:16 PM
#499
Originally Posted by litespeed-dom
RMD, I agree with a lot of things you say on here, but I would have to STRONGLY disagree with your comment above.
You’ve seen my analysis of the A Main, so you know how things could have turned out different. People make certain decisions, shit happens and in the end, it’s all about the racer and his gear. The A main had it’s share of gear related problems and as you pointed out, in an hour main, a lot can happen.
If Chris had won with a Kyosho, I would have been less inclined to come out and take the position that I have, but he did pilot a 720, his lap times were very consistent and he did win. Paolo and Scotty also did extremely well with the new car. We all know that Josh isn’t running a stock WCE and the Team Mugen’s MTX-4s are not stock either.
I based my opinion on several factors, including how everyone did this weekend, Josh’s post race comments in the Wasp Rev thread, how Rick, Ron and Marc did in the A Main, the fact that three 720s made it into the A Main, how well Darin did, how well the MTX-4 did in Vegas, the opinion of some MTX-4 racers that have switched from the RRR and the performance of the RRR in the past (i.e. 2005 Nats). The WCE might have been top dog against the MTX-3 and the 710, but I don’t think it's top dog anymore.
I’m not sure what position I will take if Josh and Adrian win the worlds. I’ll have to think about it when it happens.
06-21-2006, 04:45 PM
#500
race
Originally Posted by litespeed-dom
RMD, I agree with a lot of things you say on here, but I would have to STRONGLY disagree with your comment above.
Just because a 720 first time out and won or Swauger was TQ, doesn't mean the RRR WCE was incapable of winning. Josh was just as fast as the top runners, remember he won the outlaw class. Think about this scenario.... if all variables over the weekend happened the same way except Toso was driving a Kyosho, do you think he would still win? Toso is a very good gas driver, but if you have ever seen him on a carpet mod sedan, you'll understand why he is 3 times National Champ in 2 years and it's not because entirely on his equipments.
So will you be retracting your comment if a Kyosho wins the Worlds? Keep in mind, it's an hour long Main, a LOT of things can happen, even at the pro level.
Dom
Just because a 720 first time out and won or Swauger was TQ, doesn't mean the RRR WCE was incapable of winning. Josh was just as fast as the top runners, remember he won the outlaw class. Think about this scenario.... if all variables over the weekend happened the same way except Toso was driving a Kyosho, do you think he would still win? Toso is a very good gas driver, but if you have ever seen him on a carpet mod sedan, you'll understand why he is 3 times National Champ in 2 years and it's not because entirely on his equipments.
So will you be retracting your comment if a Kyosho wins the Worlds? Keep in mind, it's an hour long Main, a LOT of things can happen, even at the pro level.
Dom
06-21-2006, 04:55 PM
#501
Well and I'll state my believe again, with the same setup and everything, just strapping on 80% of the hopups out there won't make your car .4 sec faster.
I run with Dan (drfritz), his car is packed with hopups, K-Fact, 3Racing, Atomic, his car isn't 4/10th quicker then mine and he is a top 4 driver at any given day. Mike Ellis' car has less hopups then mine, the only hopup he has is light weight clutch bell and rear alu bulkhead, his car isn't 4/10th slower than mine either.
Again, majority of the time it has a lot more to do with driving then strapping hopups on.
And remember, the fact of the matter is at certain time you were trying to find more speed in the car and when the guys told you to true your tires instead of running them straigh out of the box, you were already quicker. And truing tires isn't a hopup.
Again, not saying every single hopups out there will not make the car faster, some do and some don't. Just depends on what you are after. And there is never a clean cut answer to this hopups vs. stock deal. Even if you give Josh a car to run, start with bone stock, then painfully put each little hopup on the car and have him run it again, you'll still be dealing with teamperature, humidity, tire size, whether he just finished his energy drink or not. Even I'll have to admist, after putting some new improved parts/option on, I can't tell the difference, I just drive it.
Agree to disagree, of course.
Dom
I run with Dan (drfritz), his car is packed with hopups, K-Fact, 3Racing, Atomic, his car isn't 4/10th quicker then mine and he is a top 4 driver at any given day. Mike Ellis' car has less hopups then mine, the only hopup he has is light weight clutch bell and rear alu bulkhead, his car isn't 4/10th slower than mine either.
Again, majority of the time it has a lot more to do with driving then strapping hopups on.
And remember, the fact of the matter is at certain time you were trying to find more speed in the car and when the guys told you to true your tires instead of running them straigh out of the box, you were already quicker. And truing tires isn't a hopup.
Again, not saying every single hopups out there will not make the car faster, some do and some don't. Just depends on what you are after. And there is never a clean cut answer to this hopups vs. stock deal. Even if you give Josh a car to run, start with bone stock, then painfully put each little hopup on the car and have him run it again, you'll still be dealing with teamperature, humidity, tire size, whether he just finished his energy drink or not. Even I'll have to admist, after putting some new improved parts/option on, I can't tell the difference, I just drive it.
Agree to disagree, of course.
Dom
06-21-2006, 05:12 PM
#502
Originally Posted by litespeed-dom
Mike Ellis' car has less hopups then mine, the only hopup he has is light weight clutch bell and rear alu bulkhead, his car isn't 4/10th slower than mine either.
06-21-2006, 05:59 PM
#503
I would actually say he and I can run identical lap times, it's been like that so far this year. It's a matter down to who will blink first and touch a pipe, and who can string more consistent fast laps together. In qualifying so far this year, we have been seperated anywhere from .2 to 4 secs, just depends on who gets held up by backmarker more. My advantage so far has been faster pit stops due to my pit guy.
Dom
Dom
06-21-2006, 06:18 PM
#504
Originally Posted by litespeed-dom
I would actually say he and I can run identical lap times, it's been like that so far this year. It's a matter down to who will blink first and touch a pipe, and who can string more consistent fast laps together. In qualifying so far this year, we have been seperated anywhere from .2 to 4 secs, just depends on who gets held up by backmarker more. My advantage so far has been faster pit stops due to my pit guy.
Dom
Dom
06-21-2006, 06:20 PM
#505
RND, I am not sure what analysis you used to determine that the MTX4 is better than a RRR, I hope it had nothing to do with Mike Swaugers' car. If Mike was driving a HPI Nitro RS4 , he would have beaten everybody there.
Mike is by far the most outstanding RC Driver in the USA. He has clearly established that in my eyes. As a matter of fact, I feel that he is the best driver in the World right now (not sure what happened at the Worlds).
I saw him at the nationals in kissimmee, at the Winternats... every year that he has been there.
The rest of the sedan A-main were top drivers also, but not in Mike's class. Mike is in a class by himself....he went down to 14.3 s in the main...multiple times.....nobody else went below 14.6
He did it when he was under pressure....he did the same thing at the Winternats when he was under pressure running the top 12 consecutive fastest laps at the Fort. Mike does this at will. You would have to see him drive to understand. He is like a machine.
I am not sure that comparing the cars of top drivers can be a determining factor in which car is better, unless there are significant differences like what happened at the worlds in Brazil.
I am not a top driver, but i have been driving the RRR for a while (before the worlds) and I have also driven the MTX4 and worked with my friend in trying to get it to handle as well as the RRR. We have not been able to do so in the last 2 months. The RRR is a far better car than the MTX4 in my humble opinion.
The 720 is another matter. I was present at the testing of the proto types and the immediate performance was truly amazing. I have not driven one yet or spent anytime working with one so I cannot say where it would rank in my eyes. I can say that it is a far better car than the 710 and should get even stronger, as the Serpent-USA Team really does their homework. They spend a lot of time and energies trying to get everything right.
It is very difficult to say that one car is better than another without driving all of them yourself and it takes time to setup a car to your liking. They are all using the same engineering, have the same amount of adjustments.
Just drive the car that you feel most comfortable with and do your best.
Mike is by far the most outstanding RC Driver in the USA. He has clearly established that in my eyes. As a matter of fact, I feel that he is the best driver in the World right now (not sure what happened at the Worlds).
I saw him at the nationals in kissimmee, at the Winternats... every year that he has been there.
The rest of the sedan A-main were top drivers also, but not in Mike's class. Mike is in a class by himself....he went down to 14.3 s in the main...multiple times.....nobody else went below 14.6
He did it when he was under pressure....he did the same thing at the Winternats when he was under pressure running the top 12 consecutive fastest laps at the Fort. Mike does this at will. You would have to see him drive to understand. He is like a machine.
I am not sure that comparing the cars of top drivers can be a determining factor in which car is better, unless there are significant differences like what happened at the worlds in Brazil.
I am not a top driver, but i have been driving the RRR for a while (before the worlds) and I have also driven the MTX4 and worked with my friend in trying to get it to handle as well as the RRR. We have not been able to do so in the last 2 months. The RRR is a far better car than the MTX4 in my humble opinion.
The 720 is another matter. I was present at the testing of the proto types and the immediate performance was truly amazing. I have not driven one yet or spent anytime working with one so I cannot say where it would rank in my eyes. I can say that it is a far better car than the 710 and should get even stronger, as the Serpent-USA Team really does their homework. They spend a lot of time and energies trying to get everything right.
It is very difficult to say that one car is better than another without driving all of them yourself and it takes time to setup a car to your liking. They are all using the same engineering, have the same amount of adjustments.
Just drive the car that you feel most comfortable with and do your best.
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
#506
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
Cool! So theorhetically speaking, based on my hypothesis, if Mike blew some money to upgrade to the UE/X and you both used the same pit guy, Mike would be able to beat you.
Dom
06-21-2006, 07:18 PM
#507
Originally Posted by dougday
Just drive the car that you feel most comfortable with and do your best.
06-21-2006, 07:22 PM
#508
Hey Rainer ( rmdhawaii ): I met some of your boys at the sedan nats: Reynold, Brian, and Dale 
. We all had dinner with Swauger saturday night.
. We all had dinner with Swauger saturday night.
06-21-2006, 07:35 PM
#509
In a lot of sports, there is always some discussion as to what is the best equipment. This applies to such sports as tennis, golf, running, sking, surfing, cycling, etc.
In Nitro Racing, people don't seem to want to discuss what is the best chassis. It's okay to discuss tires, fuel and engines, but chassis seem to be a taboo. It's almost as if everyone thinks that all cars are equally matched and that it's really the driver that determines the outcome of the race. If this were true, then there would be really no need to create an MTX-4 or 720. You would just expect the MTX-3 and 710 drivers to work harder to try and beat the RRR. But I bet you, that all the MTX-4 and 720 owners are happy that they have a new car to drive. You think any of them wish they had their old car once they drive the new car? I doubt it.
Anybody race an HPI or Associated car at the Nats? Do you think those owners think they could actually win a National championship with their car? I don't think so.
How many people do you think upgraded their car to the WCE spec when it came out? Isn't the WCE better than the standard RRR? Would any of you downgrade your cars to an out-of-the-box stanard RRR to prove a point that you could still win a race with it? I don't think so.
As Dom and I have previously discussed, the hop-ups do three things; (1) Improve the performance of the car, (2) Increase the tuneability and (3) Improve the chances of surviving the duration of the race. These cannot be bad things. They can only help you.
In Nitro Racing, people don't seem to want to discuss what is the best chassis. It's okay to discuss tires, fuel and engines, but chassis seem to be a taboo. It's almost as if everyone thinks that all cars are equally matched and that it's really the driver that determines the outcome of the race. If this were true, then there would be really no need to create an MTX-4 or 720. You would just expect the MTX-3 and 710 drivers to work harder to try and beat the RRR. But I bet you, that all the MTX-4 and 720 owners are happy that they have a new car to drive. You think any of them wish they had their old car once they drive the new car? I doubt it.
Anybody race an HPI or Associated car at the Nats? Do you think those owners think they could actually win a National championship with their car? I don't think so.
How many people do you think upgraded their car to the WCE spec when it came out? Isn't the WCE better than the standard RRR? Would any of you downgrade your cars to an out-of-the-box stanard RRR to prove a point that you could still win a race with it? I don't think so.
As Dom and I have previously discussed, the hop-ups do three things; (1) Improve the performance of the car, (2) Increase the tuneability and (3) Improve the chances of surviving the duration of the race. These cannot be bad things. They can only help you.
Last edited by rmdhawaii; 06-21-2006 at 07:46 PM.
06-21-2006, 07:43 PM
#510
Originally Posted by Roger
Hey Rainer ( rmdhawaii ): I met some of your boys at the sedan nats: Reynold, Brian, and Dale . We all had dinner with Swauger saturday night.
. We all had dinner with Swauger saturday night.
I'm looking forward to talking with them about the race, the track and how they did. Brian and Reynold are usually in the top 3 at our local club races.