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Old 01-24-2007, 11:22 PM   #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timox
Hi all,

Was wondering if i could get some help with setting up my MBX5R. Its got a LOT of over steer coming out of tight corners and it wants to hook in the rear over bumps and is just really hard to drive smooth.

What are your thoughts Ryan ? Any help is greatly appreacated.

Here is my current setup that is the best i have got it to go so far.

FRONT END
Shock oil- 400wt
Pistons- 1.5
Springs- Stock Grey
Shock position- 2nd hole form inside on tower, inside on arm
Ride height- Arms level (12mm of black clips)
Ackerman- back hole
Track width- 275mm
Front lower arm- 2mm spacer in rear
Camber- -2degrees
Toe out- -0.5 degrees per side
Castor- all spacers in front of top upper arm ( MAX castor)
Upper arm hinge pin- low insert on tower, lower block in rear.
Diff- 5000wt
Front swaybar- 2.4mm

CENTER
Diff- 5000wt
Gearing- 13/46
Clutch- aluminum, 1.0 springs
Brakes- Stock

REAR END
Shock oil- 350wt
Pistons- 1.5
Springs- Stock Grey
Shock position- Second from outside on tower, inside on arm
Ride height- Arms level (14mm of black clips)
Rear hubs- all spacers in front, Hub up high with hinge pin.
Camber- -3 degrees
Toe block- -3
Antisquat- middle insert (2 degrees)
Diff- 3000wt
Rear swaybar- 2.6mm
Camber rod- Middle inside on tower, Lower inside on hub.

I just cant get any rear traction. ?????? The box stock setup was really really bad. This setup has given me the most rear traction i have ever managed to get but its still loose in the rear and very twitchy on the steering.

Thanks for any help guys.
Thoughts ........

Move front shocks out bottom first then top if needed....
Move rears in more if altering front don't help
MAX caster is going to give you EXIT corner steering so try reducing that
Your ackerman setting is the most aggressive so maybe change that
Blue springs ?
change to 1000w rear diff oil (3000 is heavy for a low grip track)

Some ideas to play with .........
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:25 AM   #917
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Default set up

try this , and allso ask ryan barnes , he help me get my car good ,

front end ,

oil 45/50
piston 1.5
spring kit gray short
doop about 10mm
shock position , top 2nd hole in from outside , one above middle , bottom outside
ackerman , middle
track 275
ride height , arms above level
front arm spacer, rear
camber -2
toe , 1+ each side
caster , all spacers in rear , min,caster
upper arm pin , low on tower , lower rear block with 1.5mm spacer under the block to make it lower , use servo spacer you get with kit ,?
sway bar , 2.4

diffs , i like this , front 3 , mid 5 , rear 1 , makes it more forgiving ,
brakes , rear 30%, front 70% bias .?


rear end ,

oil 35w ae
piston 1.5
spring , prospec old short blue , if you only have kit gray try 30w oil ae , not losi 30w
ride height arms level
doop less then front , make sure your doops right each side ? , put limitters inside about 6/7mm ,
shock position , top middle , bottom outside
toe block , 2.5
sway bar , 2.6
camber link postion , middle inside , top inside on hub ,
rear hubs , 1mm in front , the rest in rear
anti squat , middle , 2 degrees

tires , m2 bow ties , they let the rear move alittle more with this set up ,

i can power slide corners with this set up , thanks to ryan B ,



then play with doop on different tracks , and or tires ,

your cars hooking because the doops not right each side ,and your useing the inside hole , for the bottom front shock postion , this gives lots of front grip , change to outside front shock position ,

i have been given a set up from a top driver i will be trying ,


good luck

mike

perth , oz'e
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Last edited by keyesgood; 01-25-2007 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:44 AM   #918
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Ok, cool. Thanks.

I would also like to hear what Ryan would do too if he is still around here ?

With the droop thing. I saw some of you here are using O-rings inside to limit the shock length. I tried that but 3mm of O-ring did nothing at all. The shock is still longer than the arms max down travel with no set screws ??? I measured what i would need and its about 13mm of O-rings to get the droop i am running now.

Also what's the idea with the 1.5mm spacer under the front arm top block for ?


Oh and this King-heads Ackerman plate thing i read about here. Is that just for the normal MBX5 or dose it work with the new MBX5R too ? Any reason i should get one for my 5R regarding bump steer ?

Quote:
your cars hooking because the doops not right each side
Yes i do make sure my droop is equal side to side with digital callipers. How much droop are you guys running ? As in shock length centre to centre mm ? My rears are about 122mm and my front is about 98mm.

I noticed with lots of droop the front wheels tow out rather dramatically. I didn't think this was a good thing so i cut it back till the front wheels where pointing straight and adjusted the rear droop to match. Was this a bad idea ?

I am new to these Mugen things and am struggling a bit with it all.

Cheers and thanks for the help,
Tim.
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Old 01-25-2007, 01:46 AM   #919
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Oh one other thing. You mention using AE shock oils and NOT Losi ?

I am using Losi shock oils. Is this bad ?

Quote:
change to 1000w rear diff oil (3000 is heavy for a low grip track)
Actually i think its the other way round. A heavy rear diff oil will give more rear traction and a loose one will let it rotate in the corner more.

Think of a solid axle in the rear instead of a diff. It will push the front wheels straight ahead. Its like a tractor with a diff lock. Or a 4 wheel motor bike with a solid axle. Put a bit of weight on the back of a 4 wheel motor bike and you cant steer the thing. They just push straight ahead. And that's what a heavy oil in the rear diff will do.

I tried 1000w in the rear to start with and it spun out everywhere. Bumped it up to 2000w and it was 100% better. Bumped it up to 3000w and it was another 50% better. More rear traction.

I have understeer coming into a corner as it is now. Its just the exit corner over steer on power i cant get control of.

Last edited by Timox; 01-25-2007 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 01-25-2007, 03:37 AM   #920
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Default set up help

ok, go get some garden reticalation micro pipe from ya hard ware store , and use that in side ya shocks for limitters , you just cut it as long as you need you can even make up some different sets ,

my hole rear shocks are , 125mm each long from top to bottom

fronts are 110mm long from top to bottom ,

ryan barnes trick , putting the spacer under the front rear block helps tracktion rolling , ithink it highers roll centre , lowers cg , see {barnes}


as far as i know , lighter rear diff oil will give you less trun in, heavy rear diff oil more trun in ,

your on power problem is most likely the rear end , if it was off power will be the front end not working ,

losi oil is 100%fine , just its lighter then ae / mugen ect ,

ackerman see barnes , im yet to get one,

doop , your have to limit the shocks alot like iv done , dont worry about the toe out when arms down thats just over jumps, ect

follow the set up 100% , and we work from there


mk,
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:03 AM   #921
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Ok so with the Losi oils what should i go with ? 5w heavier than AE ?

I will change my entire setup to what you said and try it this weekend as we are racing this Sunday.

Its a very bumpy, dusty, hard, loose horribel track. Am using Panther Chameleinos in Med/Soft. There the only thing that will last longer than 10 min on that track. Its a harsh track and very difficult to setup for.

Having sais that i am not too sure about those diff weights I have tried them before and couldent drive in a straight line. 5000,5000,3000 is the best i have come across so far.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:19 AM   #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyesgood
as far as i know , lighter rear diff oil will give you less trun in, heavy rear diff oil more trun in ,


Well that is compleatly oppisite to my findings Well i give up When i had 1000 in the rear i had HEAPS of turn in. When i went to 3000 i now have a slight understeer. Just the way i like it I'm so confused right now.



Ryan Barnes can you please help me in the right direction ?

Thanks.
Tim.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:22 AM   #923
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Timox- Here's some things I see with your setup that I would change. First off your running your MBX5R at it's longest length you have the 2mm spacers behind your front lower arms, and your rear hubs all the way back? Put the 2mm spacers in front of your lower front arms, and put only a 1mm spacer in front of your rear hubs. Also take some more castor out of your front, put just a 1mm spacer in front of your top arms, and put the tie rod end in the middle location on your ackerman. Your front upper hinge pin I would go to the middle insert position in the tower. Your shock oils and pistons are fine, and the 5-5-3 in your diffs should be good. Your shock positions, I would go with, Front=1 in(2nd hole) on tower and outer on arm, and Rear= middle on tower and outside on arm. In the rear put you hinge pin thru the lower hole in the rear hubs, and your camber link the inner middle hole is fine on the tower, but go up to the upper outside hole on the hub and then re-adjust your rear camber back to -2.5. The toe out issue you asked about, when your car is setting on the table at proper ride height is when it should have .5 toe out per side, but when you lift it up or set it on a box or stand it will look like ALOT more than that. That is normal, that's just how the suspension travel will react. As for the King Headz ackerman arm, yes the same ackerman works on the 5R as it does the MBX5.

Last edited by RYAN BARNES; 01-25-2007 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 01-25-2007, 07:05 AM   #924
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Thanks Ryan

So that setup will give the most rear traction and make it easy to drive ?


Its funny because i'm sure i tried a similar setup eairly on and it had no rear grip. A lot of the settings you sugest are going back to how it was a few race days ago. Which i didnt have much luck with.


But i will give it a try.

Oh one thing. I dont have any CENTER bushings for the front top arm mount to go in the tower. I dont think there where any in the kit
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Old 01-25-2007, 07:41 AM   #925
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Well for most of the problems that your having, the things I listed above are the corrections to your setup that need to be made to fix them. As for the bushings you can pick up a complete set very cheap, part # (MUGE 0111). And in an earlier popst you mentioned where I use o-rings to internally dampen my shocks (or limit droop) and you said it would take 13mm internally to get it where you run it with the set screws! NO WAY! With 13mm of limit inside a shock your arms would stay level when you pick the buggy up, and you don't want that at all. I use Losi o-rings that come in the 8ight shock rebuild kit, it has various other o-rings in the pack but I take out the 8 thick black o-rings, as I go to put the shock thru the body I put 1 thick black o-ring on the shaft, and then when it comes out of the body I put 1 more thick black o-ring on the shaft before I screw the shock end on, this one on the outside acts as a bumper when the buggy bottoms out, and the one internal limits the shock when it's at full travel. I do all 4 shocks this way and take the set screws out of the arms, and when my buggy is on a stand at full down travel the notch on the bottom side of my MBX5R arms is about 2mm from touching the chassis.

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Old 01-25-2007, 08:10 AM   #926
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I think I would push my front arms forward, rear hubs all the way forward. front arms 1 down in tower and in rear holder. It makes the car easier to drive. I also run 5-5-3 in the diffs and love it.. These changes really made my car work best for me.
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:41 PM   #927
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Does anybody use the associated starter box for there MBX-5 prospec? I was thinking about buying one.
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Old 01-25-2007, 02:58 PM   #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAN BARNES
And in an earlier popst you mentioned where I use o-rings to internally dampen my shocks (or limit droop) and you said it would take 13mm internally to get it where you run it with the set screws! NO WAY! With 13mm of limit inside a shock your arms would stay level when you pick the buggy up, and you don't want that at all.

Well Mugen must have given me the truck shocks then because mine are super super long This is the MBX5R i am talking about. Not the old MBX5.

With 13mm of spacers inside my shocks they would be 130mm long in total length ????? for the rear ones that is.

It will take about 10mm of spacers JUST to get the arms not to hit the chassis ? Serious. I'm not kidding.

Ryan, Can you tell me exactly how LONG your shocks are in total length with your spacers inside them ? And i will just do what i have to do to get them the same ?

I have always thought something was odd with my buggy. Something's not right. Its has stacks of oversteer and it seems nothing i do changes anything. And most people are finding it doesn't have enough steering Well mines the Compleat other way round.

I wish i could give you my car to look at.

Anyway, I will try those things and see,
Thanks,
Tim.
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Old 01-25-2007, 03:08 PM   #929
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Timox, Ryan limits his shocks to set his droop internally. He uses a couple orings under the piston on the shaft. This keeps you from having to use the set screws in the arms to set droop. In a long main the screws dig into the chassis and change. Ryan is also using the long mugen springs and last weekend we were running them with no ride height clips on the shock bodies to set the rear. You might be a little confused, the R shocks are lots longer then the old ones.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:50 PM   #930
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Default shocks too long?

Yes i understand about the O-rings inside the shocks

And yes i have the R shocks. I have the R car.



As they are my rear shocks are 142mm long total.
And my fronts are 119mm long total.

How much O-ring in mm will i need inside my shocks to achieve the correct droop? My guess is its going to need a LOT.

How long SHOULD my shocks be? That is the question
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