R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro Off-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-24-2012, 11:33 PM   #16
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 5,975
Send a message via ICQ to Roelof
Default

Yes and no.....

Look into largescale onroad racing. There are now special qualification tires, tires which will last only 10 minutes but will give almost unlimited grip. Sponsored drivers who can use these tires have a huge advantage above the privateer who can not afford these tires. The gap between them is getting larger which can make a privateer to decide to quit.

Yes, with an upcoming spec tire for the 1/8 onroad there is the same discussion about the sponsored driver who may not drive other brand tires. On the other hand in the electric touring it is common that the organisation is setting a spec tire. In that perspective it is up to the tire sponsors to accept such rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsickles View Post
Completely disagree....

Spec/controlled tires like 1:1 racing is bad in r/c racing.

For one, people have sponsors.... Why should a JConcepts guy be forced to run AKA, or vice-versa, etc? That would also go completely against race organizers being able to pull sponsors if the sponsors won't see their products being used. Secondly, it's death to the hobby. Not everyone can afford to spend $70 (one set) or $140 (two sets) for truggy tires each race day to meet whatever spec tire is running.

It just doesn't make logical sense. If you're going to spec tires, then spec motors, chassis', etc. The gaps are just as far apart in those categories as they are in tires.
__________________
Speed is only fiction but a 130+km/h MRS4 is for real.
Roelof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2012, 11:34 PM   #17
Tech Master
 
Flanno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,566
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smelly62 View Post
Hi all,

There is a healthy debate going on in the Australian threads about introducing controlled tyres for Truggy at major sanctioned events and no doubt it will follow onto Buggy if it does happen.

The question I have is why has it not been done yet for 1/8th Off-road in other parts of the world?
So you fully understand the full proposal

The proposal and discusion starts here;

AARCMCC GP OFFROAD - ONLINE

post 357 I think it is
__________________
I use; MG66.21, .21 Godzilla R7, GO .21 gen5.5 5port, GO/MM3 .21 gen5 5port, +Go2072, 25% NEO+, KO Propo Helios, Mugen MBX6T + MBX6, AKA Tires, Pyrographix, BCE X5mm.
Sponsors; Factory MG66/GODZILLA (MassiveMark NAA) +MMI (mugen/NEO+)+PerformanceRC +TQgrafix +AKA. I also support; LRRCC track sponsors when I can.
Flanno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2012, 11:52 PM   #18
Tech Master
 
Rsickles's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 1,325
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Rsickles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Look into largescale onroad racing. There are now special qualification tires, tires which will last only 10 minutes but will give almost unlimited grip. Sponsored drivers who can use these tires have a huge advantage above the privateer who can not afford these tires. The gap between them is getting larger which can make a privateer to decide to quit.
Not sure what you are saying... "large scale on-road racing"? Do you mean full-scale/1:1 (in which case I never said controlled tires were bad in that respect, and explained the difference)?

I wasn't talking about on-road R/C, the spec classes and rules are already puerile enough.
Rsickles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 12:09 AM   #19
Tech Master
 
Rsickles's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 1,325
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Rsickles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanno View Post
So you fully understand the full proposal

The proposal and discusion starts here;

AARCMCC GP OFFROAD - ONLINE

post 357 I think it is
Back to my second post... you will have guys who either buy them all and/or buy all the compounds. There's no such thing as 'cost saving' unless there is literally one tire/wheel combo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ringo View Post
Hi all,

AARCMCC has received a proposal from the Liverpool club to trial a control tyre concept for the Truggy class at the upcoming NSW State Titles.

In summary, the proposal nominates a single tread pattern from each of the 5 major (Truggy) tyre brands:
-AKA ‘Impact’ $240 - (3 compounds, premount)
-J Concepts ‘Subculture’ $210 - (3 compounds, wheels+tires seperate cheaper than premount)
-Proline ‘Blockade’ - $160 - (2 compounds, price estimate on premounts)
-Sweep ‘Square Armor’ - $210 (3 compounds, premounts)
-VP Pro ‘Cutoff’ - $180 (3 compounds, wheels+tires)
$1000usd all available

Competitors will be required to source and supply their own tyres, and quantities, compounds, inserts and rims are unrestricted. The basic aim of the proposal is to reduce costs to competitors by limiting the number of different types of tread patterns required to be purchased, while still giving competitors the freedom to choose from different brands and suppliers. The selections have been made based on consultation with distributors and the host club, with the aim of selecting a durable, ‘all-rounder’ type tread pattern while including as many different brands as possible.

The proposal has met with a positive response from the state delegates and distributors, however we’d like to open things up to feedback from competitors before committing to implementing it as a trial for the NSW State Titles. Please feel free to let us know what you think either here or on the 'AARCMCC Eighth Offroad' Facebook page.
In theory, one guy shows up with a worn out set of truggy tires that he spent $70 on three months ago... the guy next to him can have $1000 in tire assortment. That's really fair.
Rsickles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 12:54 AM   #20
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 5,975
Send a message via ICQ to Roelof
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsickles View Post
Not sure what you are saying... "large scale on-road racing"? Do you mean full-scale/1:1 (in which case I never said controlled tires were bad in that respect, and explained the difference)?

I wasn't talking about on-road R/C, the spec classes and rules are already puerile enough.
Largescale as in bigscale as in 1/5 scale.

It is talked about this in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4U7...layer_embedded
__________________
Speed is only fiction but a 130+km/h MRS4 is for real.
Roelof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 02:38 AM   #21
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 976
Trader Rating: 39 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Largescale as in bigscale as in 1/5 scale.

It is talked about this in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4U7...layer_embedded
Force drivers to race on their qualifying tires.
BrakeTurnAccelerate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 02:38 AM   #22
Tech Master
 
jeromerc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,050
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

They tried to do a spec tire in Vietnam, it lasted up until the race day. Many pulled out because there were no spec tires available (some people bought them out). They then tried to resell them at a mark up, the usual field went from 50 to 20, at the last moment they lifted the ban and another 10 showed up, the only good thing is that those who tried to manipulate still have sets of those tires (maybe they should have pushed for good tires instead of crap ones

So not in Vietnam to answer your question, heck they don't even regulate engine size but on a small track it really doesn't matter since the bigger engines have more traction problems and less mileage
jeromerc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 07:48 AM   #23
Tech Master
 
tex1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,156
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to tex1
Thumbs up Spec tires....

I like it for IFMAR Worlds events. You get two sets with your check in and one set for each main there after. No saucing.

The reason is the outlandish amount of money teams spend trying to tire tune before the race. To knock this cost out, where the tracks are usually foreign to the teams, spec tires being announced before hand would be logical. I do not like seeing a Worlds event being decided on haves and have nots as far as tires go.

The Nats, like those held here in the US, everyone knows those tracks and this is where the tire tech comes from.

But the Worlds is a different story. Teams travel in from far and wide. Not having to worry about tire tuning will level the playing field and reduce the cost and maybe even the necessity of having a warm up race. The host needs to suggest to IFMAR what the best tire package would be.

This is what they do in 1/10th off road. It works well.

TEX
__________________
www.indyrcworld.net
Indy RC World 2.0 - Garland, TX
T&T RC Cars - Plano, TX
(972) 271-4844
tex1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 07:34 PM   #24
Tech Master
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth, West Australia.
Posts: 1,243
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsickles View Post
Sorry, don't mean to sound obnoxious... just curious how exactly it 'reduces cost' according to the people at your track?

Maybe it's only the certain same people every week, but if someone shows up for the first time, are you going to say "sorry, you can't race... don't have the right tires"? Or, "go drop $60usd at the hobby shop and come back"?

Even better... would they control the compound too? If you guys choose, say an AKA Grid Iron, what is going to keep people from going out and buying all four compounds (SS, S, M, H)? That is $240usd someone would drop instantly. And then proceed to try all four sets every weekend thinking they'll get a different result, wearing them out, and continuously stocking up.

In 1:1 racing, controlled tires are only "cost savings" to teams because of one of two factors: 1) you are only allowed so many sets (teams can't buy more), 2) putting new tires on costs track position, so there's not always incentive to change tires. In R/C, neither of these are really applicable.
Sorry forgot to mention any compound can be used.
Yep it doesn't look like there will be any cost savings or leveling of the playing field with this proposal.
__________________
Kyosho MP9, STRR Evo 2
OS Engines, KO Propo
AKA
Nitro X Fuels
smelly62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 08:16 PM   #25
Tech Elite
 
Zerodefect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Underground, Ohio
Posts: 4,305
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tex1 View Post
I like it for IFMAR Worlds events. You get two sets with your check in and one set for each main there after. No saucing.

The reason is the outlandish amount of money teams spend trying to tire tune before the race. To knock this cost out, where the tracks are usually foreign to the teams, spec tires being announced before hand would be logical. I do not like seeing a Worlds event being decided on haves and have nots as far as tires go.

The Nats, like those held here in the US, everyone knows those tracks and this is where the tire tech comes from.

But the Worlds is a different story. Teams travel in from far and wide. Not having to worry about tire tuning will level the playing field and reduce the cost and maybe even the necessity of having a warm up race. The host needs to suggest to IFMAR what the best tire package would be.

This is what they do in 1/10th off road. It works well.

TEX
At the worlds level, those teams/racers better have thier stuff together. Don't have the wrong tires? Can't get the right tires? Tuff, you lose, go home, go back to club races. Preparation is the key to victory. Those high level races should use "Big Boy Rules".

Running "qual tires" in the quals and a different type of tire for longer mains is nothing new. My Q1,Q2 tires are worn out main tires, soon they'll be practice tires.

My Q3 and Main tires are the best tires I have. I avoid useing those tires in Q1,Q2 unless I have to. Save wear and tear on tires.

Only the top 5% of racers can make use of the absolute best tires and Voodoo in 1/8th scale. At my track the fastest 5% of racers can make good use of Gridirons, the rest of us would just be wasteing money and run longer lasting Impacts instead.

Running the faster SS Gridirons are only an advantage if your super fast at my tracks, I'm faster on Impacts, as is just about every other racer at my skill level.

Those same racers are experienced enough to know when to run the soft tires and have enough experience to make the best use of thier budget. And I'm sure they're budgets are higher than the average racer.

We don't need spec tire rules in 1/8th scale. Maybe those abrasive blue groove tracks do need a rule. Those tracks eat tires, and maybe a cost issue with that would require med compound spec tires.

I don't see spec tires saving anyone time or money. Usually spec rules only bring more dopeing and tweaking, not cost savings. And there is no even field, the faster racers will still be faster.

1/8 scale nitrobuggy has had the best and most consistant rules and racing for 20+ years. I wouldn't screw up a good thing by diddleing with the rules unless it's absolutely needed due to weak low maintenance hard packed tracks with lazy track workers.

Last edited by Zerodefect; 07-25-2012 at 08:29 PM.
Zerodefect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 09:29 PM   #26
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia - TAS
Posts: 181
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via MSN to Hyper RX7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smelly62 View Post
Yep it doesn't look like there will be any cost savings or leveling of the playing field with this proposal.
How can you not save money??
For an event with the control tyre I would buy:
2x soft and 2x medium sets for example and I know I am at no disadvantage

For a non control event I would potentially need to buy:
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of WWWW in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of XXXXX in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of YYYYYY in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of ZZZZZZ in case it's good
OR
If I pick one type of tyre it sucks... I'm screwed...
If I buy just one set of each..... I'm screwed... to be the same price as above
__________________
Mark Rayner
Sponsored by:Team Xray Australia.
President - www.nwrccc.com - Tasmania's 1\8th IC Home
Hyper RX7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 10:14 PM   #27
Tech Master
 
Rsickles's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 1,325
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Rsickles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper RX7 View Post
How can you not save money??
The proposal the OP is talking about includes five different tires, with no control on compound.
Rsickles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2012, 10:26 PM   #28
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia - TAS
Posts: 181
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via MSN to Hyper RX7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsickles View Post
The proposal the OP is talking about includes five different tires, with no control on compound.
All tyres picked should be essentially the same tread pattern.
However I agree, it'd be nice to at least rule out SS tyres for example to go along with it; and also be forced to stick with the brand of your choice.
__________________
Mark Rayner
Sponsored by:Team Xray Australia.
President - www.nwrccc.com - Tasmania's 1\8th IC Home
Hyper RX7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2012, 03:18 AM   #29
Tech Elite
 
Zerodefect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Underground, Ohio
Posts: 4,305
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper RX7 View Post
How can you not save money??
For an event with the control tyre I would buy:
2x soft and 2x medium sets for example and I know I am at no disadvantage

For a non control event I would potentially need to buy:
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of WWWW in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of XXXXX in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of YYYYYY in case it's good
2x soft and 2xmedium sets of ZZZZZZ in case it's good
OR
If I pick one type of tyre it sucks... I'm screwed...
If I buy just one set of each..... I'm screwed... to be the same price as above
8 sets of tires ain't jack.

If that's all the tires you need, which is about the same amount I carry, then you have nothing to complain about.

In 2wd buggy I bring over 30 sets! I'd kill for a spec rule in 2wd buggy!

It's not like they'll go to waste. And it's not like we don't allready go though tons of tires anyways. I order Enduros for practice purposes only now. Usually my worn out tires are for practice. But Enduros are handy to have as well for long practice days.

Don't forget the added cost of spec tires: Multiple sets of foam, more tire testing, dopeing to the 9th degree, wheel swapping, etc. etc. Eventually the other racers will find tire "tricks" that give advantages. And they're allmost allways a pain to do.
Zerodefect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2012, 04:14 AM   #30
Tech Elite
 
Teufel Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sparks Nv.
Posts: 2,134
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Usually,

Spec racing or anything spec'd for use in racing starts out as a good idea. With costs or percieved cost savings as a big driving force for it. Having lived the Spec racing way, I am susally very against it. Mainly because it usually never ends up being what it was orginally intended to be. Think, motor, tire, and battery of the week club. Costs can get out of hand real fast.

However, having said that, I do think there can be some events where it can be done. As already pointed out, the 1/10th Offroad Worlds do use a spec tire rule. So racers know it can be done at that level. Can or should it be done at a lower level of racing is probably another topic altogether.

With that in mind, there are some things that would have to be done to make it work.

1) Pick one tire and one compound only. Anything else opens up doors that would negate the whole idea. Picking a tread and compound that actually works for the track/event would be ideal.

2) Limit the ammount of sets that could be used for the event. If trying to cut costs, this is a must. The idea here would be to not have everyone, or only those that can afford it (club racers with deep pockets, or top Pro drivers) from mounting a new set every run. You know, the one run club.

Those two things are the two most important things to do to make a spec tire rule work and work well. Yet, there is a lot more that has to be considered.

Foams) either leave it open to the racers to decide which to use or spec those as well. Either way, it is another thing that would have to be looked at and decided apon. Again if spec'd, picking one that would actually work for the track/event would be ideal.

Tech) Someone or someones will have to do that job. It'll be more work for the people that will be putting on or hosting the event. It's a manpower issue that at some of the smaller events, the manpower may not be there for. Again something to look at and decide on.

Cost for the Spec tires to the racer) Would there be a discount be given or would it be street pricing? Would the entry fee include a set or sets of the spec tire? There was a time when you got handout tires and motors with your entry fee back in the day for the bigger elec. races (man I miss those days). Another decision that would need to be made.

Cost of the Spec tires for the track/orginizers of the event) The tires will have to come from somewhere. A cost factor that for most track/clubs/orginizers would be a very high number up front. If a tire sponsor for the event was found, maybe the spec tires could be had a cheaper cost for the track/club/orginizers or.................. This one part can take a lot of time, effort, and headaches for the poor soul or souls that would have to find a way to make it happen. No easy task.

Those are some of the things that would need to get done for it to work. There's probably more, but those are just off the top of my head.

Could a Spec tire rule be done for 1/8th racing? Sure, for some events/races. For others, no. It wouldn't be an easy thing to do, but wouldn't be impossible either.

As a racer that spends 70+ (USD) for a set of truggy tires, I do like the spec tire idea for a big race event. For me it does a few things, cuts the tire costs for the event. I wouldn't need a ton of tire options for the event. Would save me space when packing for the event. More so for any racer that flies to a big event, space is at a primeium so any thing extra that isn't needed helps. There's only so much you can fly with. Would give me a little bit more of a fair competive shot while racing. Wouldn't mean I'd be guarenteed an A-Main starting position, but would help some. Still gotta drive well ya know.
__________________
J.Mikoliczyk

ZX6 - RB6 - MP9e
Fantom Racing, Cheater Racing
Houston's Engine Service
Teufel Racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CHARGERS RC - Ipswich Offroad heavy Australian Racing 8244 07-08-2017 11:55 PM
Adelaide Nitro Offroad Racing Club oblivion Australian Racing 19736 01-14-2017 01:12 AM
AARCMCC GP OFFROAD - ONLINE PillowBalls Australian Racing 584 11-16-2015 04:24 AM
~ 2012 ORRCA QLD EP10 OFFROAD STATE TITLES ~ kakarot Australian Events 88 06-12-2012 03:46 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:50 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net