R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro Off-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-10-2011, 09:24 PM   #1
Tech Prophet
 
houston's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: portland OR
Posts: 15,088
Trader Rating: 91 (100%+)
Default shocks, are they maxed out ?

kind of a poll here

do you guys feel that our 8th scale shocks are perfectly refined or do you feel there is room for improvement?

if there was a new shock or new parts for your existing shocks would you be interested ?


voice your thoughts and opinions on the subject and as always be cordial and civil


happy motorin',
Monty
__________________
TEAM FUSION X ENGINES / TEAM BYRON ORIGINALS / TEAM PROLINE RACING TIRES / TEAM SICK GRAPHICS /TEAM KYOSHO / things I support: COMP HEAT DEALER /TEAM LUNSFORD/ FUSIONX™ USA / TEAM KYOSHO / "H.E.S."™ / BYRON FUELS / RC-OMGUSA/KICWEBDESIGNZ/AKA TIRES/PROLINE RACING TIRES /RAYA RACING/BUKU POWER CLUTCH/M2CRACING/special thanks to STAV and JIM HOTTIGREENMOUNTAINGRILLS.COM
houston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 09:34 PM   #2
Tech Elite
 
jmaxey51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 3,917
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

i think they could make them more like a dirtbike style shocks, more like the front forks (the nitrogen rear shocks bikes have are out of the question and will make cost of racing go WAY up i would think), having springs and valving all inside the shock, i think it would make the buggy/truggy basically driving itself though, there would be far less crashing especially going into turns. but then it might also not be good for the hobby because that type of shocks are very complicated and hard to work on. but you wouldnt hardly have to work on them, there are to many trade offs to list between each.

as of right now, i feel like its all coming down to the shock pistons, different hole size, different amount of holes and different types of tapper pistons is really making these shocks work extremely well.
__________________
Jonathan Maxey - Mugen Seiki USA, Alpha-Plus Engines, O'donnell Fuel Team, Sweep Racing USA, M2C Racing, Airtronics, TritonRC.com, RC Renew, 4C Hobby Supply
Mugen MBX7 / Alpha-Plus Engine / Airtronics M11x
Mugen MBX6T / Alpha-Plus Engine / Airtronics M11x
Mugen MBX7 Eco / LRP / Airtronics M11x
jmaxey51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 09:34 PM   #3
Tech Addict
 
nadan805's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: PHX
Posts: 613
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

They need a better protecting boots. I think the current shocks soak up pretty big jumps good enough.
__________________
HE > I______Back in the day:
-AE RC10T3 Basic
-Tamiya Ford SVT F-150 Lightning
-Traxxas Spirit
nadan805 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2011, 09:36 PM   #4
Tech Addict
 
dragracechief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, Wa.
Posts: 539
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

I believe todays shock are good pieces, but are they maxed out, no way. There is always room for improvement. As long as there is compitition there will always be advancements. Its just a matter of the costs involved and if the market will bare those costs. I for one am always interested in improving my equipment but at the same time must way the costs of the improvents vs the actual performance increase.
dragracechief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 01:58 AM   #5
JsK
Tech Master
 
JsK's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: S.Oregon
Posts: 1,525
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfectly refined" Monty. For a
progressive single valve system I would say that there is not really a whole
lot of room for improvement if we stay with the current archetecture. Now
there are a few things that we could try. Bypass ports could be milled into
the shock bodies or a replacable sleeve.More exotic hole styles, bypass flaps
The magnetic bump stops Tex was working could also lead to some small improvements.
All these things though rely on a progressive damping system.

Digressive damping would be a much more effective system but
is far to complicated to miniaturize for an RC shock. If you have ever seen
the valve stack out of a true quad adjustable shock its just not feasable.
We really dont even need the external adjustments but even without those
its still a complex system.

With true Digressive Speed sensative valving and travel limiters, sway bars
would become almost unnecessary or at least shrink substantialy. We could
also get rid of the 5th spring and start working on some more exotic chassis
designs.

Honestly current 1/8 scale shocks are really just one step removed from the
thing holding your screen door open , but there cheap, simple, easy to manufacture
and maintain and they work well enough to keep most people happy.

You gonna make it to Chads for Rnd 2 ?
JsK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 04:31 AM   #6
Tech Fanatic
 
mgtmadness2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bath, NY
Posts: 945
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

IMO They are maxed out.
This is why there is tuning to do with chassis flex because the shocks and suspension and suspension/shocks geometry cannot handle all the jumps and bumps like the shocks and suspension are supposed to.
If your chassis is totally stiff and does not bend at all, these buggies and truggies cannot handle well, cause the shocksand the suspension cannot do the job it is supposed too and handle all the jumps and bumps, etc,etc.

Test your shocks and suspension by having a completely stiff chassis and adjust/tune to that. That way your shocks and suspension are doing the work they are designed to do without all that chassis flex doing some of the work.


I do not think Jason Barcia's Dirt Bike Chassis flexes and or is it a tuning option to tune with chassis flex.
The same goes for Lucas Oil Off Road Racing Series Short Course trucks, I do not think they tune with chassis flex. I think everyone wants the frame/chassis as stiff as possible so the suspension does what it is supposed to do.
Yes the frames are different. I know this.
__________________
George White
Bath, NY
Team Terribles!
Race Vehicles-SC8 w/ GRP .28 Tuned,RC8T FT-Reedy VR 121 .21, 2035 pipe, RC8B-Reedy .21
http://www.jerrysrcraceway.com/
mgtmadness2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 06:05 AM   #7
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 3,644
Default

Shocks and Chassis are fine. They hold up well to all the OVERSHOOTING people do. Im pretty sure all the mechanical engineers that design these things have looked at different options in shocks and placement. I believe that what they have come up with is the BEST working option out there. Is there room for improvement, definitely. These toys are NO WHERE near the same as BIKES or 1.1 cars.
__________________
TLR - Spektrum - Horizon - TLR 8ight 4.0 - TLR 8ight-T 4.0 - TLR 22 4.0 - Orion
token is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 07:16 AM   #8
Tech Regular
 
mechanic77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Burrton, Ks
Posts: 281
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JsK View Post
I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfectly refined" Monty. For a
progressive single valve system I would say that there is not really a whole
lot of room for improvement if we stay with the current archetecture. Now
there are a few things that we could try. Bypass ports could be milled into
the shock bodies or a replacable sleeve.More exotic hole styles, bypass flaps
The magnetic bump stops Tex was working could also lead to some small improvements.
All these things though rely on a progressive damping system.

Digressive damping would be a much more effective system but
is far to complicated to miniaturize for an RC shock. If you have ever seen
the valve stack out of a true quad adjustable shock its just not feasable.
We really dont even need the external adjustments but even without those
its still a complex system.

With true Digressive Speed sensative valving and travel limiters, sway bars
would become almost unnecessary or at least shrink substantialy. We could
also get rid of the 5th spring and start working on some more exotic chassis
designs.

Honestly current 1/8 scale shocks are really just one step removed from the
thing holding your screen door open , but there cheap, simple, easy to manufacture
and maintain and they work well enough to keep most people happy.
Couldn't of said it better myself
__________________
Durango DEX210, Tekin RS, SMC 7.5, Savox 1258TG
Durango DEST210R, Tekin RS, LRP 8.5, Savox 1256TG
Ofna Nexx 8, Tekin RX8/1900kv, Hitec 5955TG (FOR SALE)
mechanic77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 05:16 PM   #9
Tech Prophet
 
houston's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: portland OR
Posts: 15,088
Trader Rating: 91 (100%+)
Default

great inputs guys , any words from pro drivers?


the more discussion and ideas put forth means a better end product
__________________
TEAM FUSION X ENGINES / TEAM BYRON ORIGINALS / TEAM PROLINE RACING TIRES / TEAM SICK GRAPHICS /TEAM KYOSHO / things I support: COMP HEAT DEALER /TEAM LUNSFORD/ FUSIONX™ USA / TEAM KYOSHO / "H.E.S."™ / BYRON FUELS / RC-OMGUSA/KICWEBDESIGNZ/AKA TIRES/PROLINE RACING TIRES /RAYA RACING/BUKU POWER CLUTCH/M2CRACING/special thanks to STAV and JIM HOTTIGREENMOUNTAINGRILLS.COM
houston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 05:26 PM   #10
Tech Master
 
AZRC4Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Fullerton, CA
Posts: 1,147
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracechief View Post
I believe todays shock are good pieces, but are they maxed out, no way. There is always room for improvement. As long as there is compitition there will always be advancements. Its just a matter of the costs involved and if the market will bare those costs. I for one am always interested in improving my equipment but at the same time must way the costs of the improvents vs the actual performance increase.
I'm not a pro, but...

I agree, lots of room for development but cost, size, and weight are the main constraints I see. The current shocks are not very aerodynamic and must produce a decent amount of drag at higher speeds. A flatter lying shock would seem to lower the overall CG and thus promote better handling. The reservoirs may not be able to grow much given that weight would be increased and the chassis size is fairly small, but a larger reservoir would help to keep the fluid slightly cooler over longer runs (more consistent shocks). Materials could certainly be improved, specifically the pistons and interior walls of the shock bodies, perhaps some ceramic coating? It would be really cool to have adjustable rebound and compression on the exterior of the shock like full scale racing shocks, but the mechanics involved may not be able to be scaled down and still function appropriately and consistently. There is always room for improvements
__________________
Sean Gaffney
...where some sponsors used to be...
AZRC4Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 10:56 PM   #11
Tech Master
 
dnebout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NorCal
Posts: 1,098
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

I would ask for a better fitting piston. Something without any flash that needs to be trimmed and perfectly round throughout the thickness of the piston which is only about 1mm. The extra pistons I received from a certain manufacturer had a bit of flash and where not perfectly round through the girth. This demanded my attention, which caused me to start sanding. If you don't sand them down, they stick. If you sand too much they allow fluid to bypass the piston and become worthless.

I would like to see an aluminum piston that is perfectly milled for the shock body. No drag and no fluid bypass! my.02
__________________
Losi 8T 2.0, Werks B5 Pro, Savox 1267 / Hitec 7950
Losi Eight 2.0, Nova 4c, Hitec 7940 / Hitec 7955
Losi Eight E 2.0, RX8, Tekin 1900kv / Hitec 7955
Blackjack 26
Aka: Deebo, Poppa Pump / Busted Knuckle Wheelin' / Henchmen Racing
dnebout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 11:14 PM   #12
Tech Adept
 
madac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 229
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnebout View Post
I would ask for a better fitting piston. Something without any flash that needs to be trimmed and perfectly round throughout the thickness of the piston which is only about 1mm. The extra pistons I received from a certain manufacturer had a bit of flash and where not perfectly round through the girth. This demanded my attention, which caused me to start sanding. If you don't sand them down, they stick. If you sand too much they allow fluid to bypass the piston and become worthless.

I would like to see an aluminum piston that is perfectly milled for the shock body. No drag and no fluid bypass! my.02
The only problem with having an aluminum piston that fit that well would be drag on the shock body causing wear on the inside that the plastic piston does as well over time but the aluminum one would cause it faster. More money for new shock bodies but if the aluminum piston had a u around the outside for an o-ring to fit in would make a better fit against the inner shock body then it would be justifiable and only allowing the shock fluid through the holes in the piston for progressive dampening.
__________________
Team Associated B5
Spektrum DX3S
madac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 12:13 AM   #13
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 506
Trader Rating: 127 (100%+)
Default

I think that a some sort of an air spring could work.... Although I can't really come up with a design that would out weight the benefits of the added weight and stiction...

If you look at a twin chamber MX fork, our RC cars are using a dumbed down version of the inner chamber with a coil over around it. It would be cool to incorporate an air spring adjusted via an oil quantity in an outer chamber. It would add bottoming resistance and make RC suspension more progressive, but they would have to be bled...

Just a thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgtmadness2007 View Post

I do not think Jason Barcia's Dirt Bike Chassis flexes and or is it a tuning option to tune with chassis flex.
The same goes for Lucas Oil Off Road Racing Series Short Course trucks, I do not think they tune with chassis flex. I think everyone wants the frame/chassis as stiff as possible so the suspension does what it is supposed to do.
Yes the frames are different. I know this.
Actually, chassis flex in motocross is a very big deal and part of the reason why modern bikes handle as well as they do. Take the 97' CR250 for example, that was Honda's first AL frame and it was extremely stiff, this resulted in poor handling (not to mention terrible vibration!). Current bikes have more chassis flex that you would think, along with handle bars, forks , triple clamps, steering stems, and swing arms. It's quite amazing the engineering and thought just put into chassis flex, it's far more advanced than on our RC cars...

Just off the top of my head, examples include:
Yamaha reduces thickness of fork tubes to feed in more flex
Yamaha designs new swingarm that increases torsional flex
Yamaha machines triple clamps and changes thickness/shape of steering stem to allow for more flex
Kawasaki adds spacers and longer bolts to motor mounts to feed flex to front down tube

Next time you are near a bike with pro taper style bars, push and pull on them, you can visibly see them flex...

There are a ton more and OEMs are always trying to figure out the best blend of flex and ridgity...so, yes Justin Barcia's CRF250 is flexing like crazy!
Ei8ht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2011, 01:04 AM   #14
Tech Prophet
 
houston's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: portland OR
Posts: 15,088
Trader Rating: 91 (100%+)
Default

Awesome, keep thoughts coming
__________________
TEAM FUSION X ENGINES / TEAM BYRON ORIGINALS / TEAM PROLINE RACING TIRES / TEAM SICK GRAPHICS /TEAM KYOSHO / things I support: COMP HEAT DEALER /TEAM LUNSFORD/ FUSIONX™ USA / TEAM KYOSHO / "H.E.S."™ / BYRON FUELS / RC-OMGUSA/KICWEBDESIGNZ/AKA TIRES/PROLINE RACING TIRES /RAYA RACING/BUKU POWER CLUTCH/M2CRACING/special thanks to STAV and JIM HOTTIGREENMOUNTAINGRILLS.COM
houston is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jammin SCRT10 Thread B.A. Racer Electric Off-Road 10224 03-24-2016 08:28 AM
New Hot Bodies Buggy!!??????? monsteraddict Nitro Off-Road 14489 03-18-2013 01:42 PM
Turtle Trax 11/29 @ 2PM Team Turtle Georgia Racing 129 12-06-2009 04:48 PM
leaking shocks.. time to upgrade? Built B16A Nitro On-Road 17 01-28-2007 08:37 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:07 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net